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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Hypocrisy on vgchartz. Gameplay is not a subjective topic but Presentation is.

Marucha on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:
I like the presentation of Mario. Therefore, your argument is fallacious.

It isn't fallacious because you have yet to give a reason as to WHY you like the presentation and whether that constitutes taste or objective measure of quality in visual art.


Art cannot be objectively qualified.

You realize that people go to school to learn music theory and visual art, yeah? There is an objective side to art, to a degree. Gameplay is an art so it is bound to the same rules as presentation.

Have you mastered in art and musical theory? Then tell us who are the reigning authorities in art appreciation and critique? What are the fundamentals to art and design? Then also explain how this applies to game design...



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happydolphin on 09 March 2013
Marucha said:

Have you mastered in art and musical theory? Then tell us who are the reigning authorities in art appreciation and critique? What are the fundamentals to art and design? Then also explain how this applies to game design...

I have never taken music or visual arts formal education, but I know people who have and who can school pretty much anyone in this thread.

Of the little I do know, there is a lot more to art than most people believe, especially in music the complexity of music theory is beyond a simple vgchartz topic.

So I'm sorry if I didn't take the courses myself  I can still disagree with people who say "art is purely subjective". That's bullshit.



happydolphin on 09 March 2013
Jay520 said:
Those classes are to learn the mechanics and components of music and the visual arts. They also help to equip students to express themselves via art and to read other people's art. That doesn't make the quality of art or music objective.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying gameplay and presentation are bound together. Two games can have the same gameplay yet have vastly different presentations with neither of them being objectively superior.

Two games could have vastly different gameplay with the same presentation with neither of them being objectively superior what's your point?



Naum on 09 March 2013

Holy hell not this again...




If it isn't turnbased it isn't worth playing   (mostly)

And shepherds we shall be,

For Thee, my Lord, for Thee. Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, That our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command. So we shall flow a river forth to Thee And teeming with souls shall it ever be. In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritūs Sancti. -----The Boondock Saints

Marucha on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:
Marucha said:

Have you mastered in art and musical theory? Then tell us who are the reigning authorities in art appreciation and critique? What are the fundamentals to art and design? Then also explain how this applies to game design...

I have never taken music or visual arts formal education, but I know people who have and who can school pretty much anyone in this thread.

Of the little I do know, there is a lot more to art than most people believe, especially in music the complexity of music theory is beyond a simple vgchartz topic.

So I'm sorry if I didn't take the courses myself  I can still disagree with people who say "art is purely subjective". That's bullshi

*shakes head*... if you can't answer even answer those basic questions, then you might as well stop now because you have no authority on this topic. Having an 'art friend' doesn't count... you have to know what you're talking about, and you don't know enough about the subject.

Even if you are correct, that art is not purely subjective, you are not educated enough on the matter to use it in an argument towards game design... it is still infact an opinion.



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Women of VGChartz Welcome Committee Thread

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Farsala on 09 March 2013

Another thread about NSMB? Anyways you will see that hypocrisy is everywhere, and that you cannot change it. Take for example every CoD game is the same thing every year, so is pretty much every pokemon game (not quite yearly), mario sequels, DW games etc. etc.



Jay520 on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:
Those classes are to learn the mechanics and components of music and the visual arts. They also help to equip students to express themselves via art and to read other people's art. That doesn't make the quality of art or music objective.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying gameplay and presentation are bound together. Two games can have the same gameplay yet have vastly different presentations with neither of them being objectively superior.

Two games could have vastly different gameplay with the same presentation with neither of them being objectively superior what's your point?



Thanks for proving that gameplay and presentation are not bound together.

Screamapillar on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:

The hypocritical trend I've found in this forum is that when people talk about gameplay, it's all fair game. There's no question about it being YOUR  opinion, or about it just being subjective. People will consider game slike NSMB as the holy grail of gameplay and everyone's okay with that.

But what happens when we talk about presentation, graphical style, graphics, music, cadence, plot, characters. Suddenly it all becomes subjective. Suddently when saying that one game lacks in that department, you become some kind of a high-class snob.

So when someone reasonably states that NSMB as a series has absolutely no value when it comes to excellence in presentation, suddenly he is speaking out of opinion, is a basher, a troll and a snob.


The problem is, none of the above matters if the basic fundamental gameplay system isn't solid.  Everything you mentioned... style, characters, presentation, "graphics" (whatever that means), none of that is important if the gameplay beneath it is shallow or sub-par, or bad.



The Screamapillar is easily identified by its constant screaming—it even screams in its sleep. The Screamapillar is the favorite food of everything, is sexually attracted to fire, and needs constant reassurance or it will die.

curl-6 on 09 March 2013

Everything is subjective when it comes to game quality.



happydolphin on 09 March 2013
Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:
Those classes are to learn the mechanics and components of music and the visual arts. They also help to equip students to express themselves via art and to read other people's art. That doesn't make the quality of art or music objective.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying gameplay and presentation are bound together. Two games can have the same gameplay yet have vastly different presentations with neither of them being objectively superior.

Two games could have vastly different gameplay with the same presentation with neither of them being objectively superior what's your point?



Thanks for proving that gameplay and presentation are not bound together.


Thanks for proving that you completely missed my point. "Gameplay is an art so it is bound to the same rules as presentation." I didn't say they were bound to one another, I said they were bound to the same rules (when it comes to subjectivity and objectivity).