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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Hypocrisy on vgchartz. Gameplay is not a subjective topic but Presentation is.

Screamapillar on 09 March 2013

@happydolphin

I remember debating with you in some thread you made a while back, that somehow because NSMB was a 2D sidescroller, that it shouldn't cost $50 because it's not "good enough" or something like that. We didn't get anywhere in that thread. It seems like we probably won't get anywhere here, either. I just don't agree with your reasoning at all. We're on completely different wave-lengths.



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Mazty on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:

The hypocritical trend I've found in this forum is that when people talk about gameplay, it's all fair game. There's no question about it being YOUR  opinion, or about it just being subjective. People will consider game slike NSMB as the holy grail of gameplay and everyone's okay with that.

But what happens when we talk about presentation, graphical style, graphics, music, cadence, plot, characters. Suddenly it all becomes subjective. Suddently when saying that one game lacks in that department, you become some kind of a high-class snob.

So when someone reasonably states that NSMB as a series has absolutely no value when it comes to excellence in presentation, suddenly he is speaking out of opinion, is a basher, a troll and a snob.

 

I'd like anyone who is also sick of this mentality to voice their opinions on it. Yes, Rol and Moreno, if you think this is a response to your behavior in my gunman clive thread, you are correct, I'm actually pretty irate right now.

Oh I like to argue that gameplay isn't subjective. I also have one of the worst moderation reputations on this site. Go figure why the site has therefore ended up as the site you describe.



happydolphin on 09 March 2013
Marucha said:

*shakes head*... if you can't answer even answer those basic questions, then you might as well stop now because you have no authority on this topic. Having an 'art friend' doesn't count... you have to know what you're talking about, and you don't know enough about the subject.

Even if you are correct, that art is not purely subjective, you are not educated enough on the matter to use it in an argument towards game design... it is still infact an opinion.

I never said that I knew what the courses entailed, now did I? I purely said that I knew that there were advanced courses on musical theory as well as proper programs for visual art, and that there is a lot of theory behind it. I only heard a fraction of what these people learn, them telling me about it, but it is not something I know neither is it something I pretend to know, and never in this thread have I said as much.

Of course this is my opinion, and my opinion's argument is that people who say "Art is subjective" are using that phrase incorrectly. There is a lot of theory behind art (which I have not learned myself) and I know that there is a measure of formality to art as well, so since that was my argument and my point, you flailing your diploma or whatever it is you have to reduce the credibility of my post is nothing more than snobbism, imho.

(A small parenthesis, if this is worth anything, I took 6 years of lessons in Traditional Irish Music, and I can assure you there is a very specific way to play irish music. It's subjective up to a certain measure, people can recognize a good irish music player with proper training.)



MARCUSDJACKSON on 09 March 2013

see the stupidest thing someone can do is make a thread asking which is more important. you know the list.

Presentation depends souly, on how you view presentation, and what's exceptable to you.



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happydolphin on 09 March 2013
MARCUSDJACKSON said:
see the stupidest thing someone can do is make a thread asking which is more important. you know the list.

Presentation depends souly, on how you view presentation, and what's exceptable to you.

Sorry, you lost me at "stupidest", all the typos, the horrible punctuation, my uncertainty as to whether or not you're in the wrong thread (I made the gameplay vs story+ thread a while ago) and even if you were in the right thread, what exactly you're bringing of value to OP.

So you're saying presentation is subjective, as if that hasn't been mentioned before?



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d21lewis on 09 March 2013

I only read the OP and I don't know what happened in the Gunman Clive thread. I just wanted to say (without creating a thread) that Tomb Raider is the best looking game I've ever played (I'm no PC gamer).



kain_kusanagi on 09 March 2013
Mazty said:
happydolphin said:

The hypocritical trend I've found in this forum is that when people talk about gameplay, it's all fair game. There's no question about it being YOUR  opinion, or about it just being subjective. People will consider game slike NSMB as the holy grail of gameplay and everyone's okay with that.

But what happens when we talk about presentation, graphical style, graphics, music, cadence, plot, characters. Suddenly it all becomes subjective. Suddently when saying that one game lacks in that department, you become some kind of a high-class snob.

So when someone reasonably states that NSMB as a series has absolutely no value when it comes to excellence in presentation, suddenly he is speaking out of opinion, is a basher, a troll and a snob.

 

I'd like anyone who is also sick of this mentality to voice their opinions on it. Yes, Rol and Moreno, if you think this is a response to your behavior in my gunman clive thread, you are correct, I'm actually pretty irate right now.

Oh I like to argue that gameplay isn't subjective. I also have one of the worst moderation reputations on this site. Go figure why the site has therefore ended up as the site you describe.

If gameplay isn't subjective than why do some people love GTA and others don't. Why do some prefer JRPGs to WRPGs? Why do some people like shooters and others only play slashers?

Now, with that said, a broken game is a broken game, that's not subjective. Just like bad acting is bad acting. But a game with perfectly playable gameplay can be enjoyed by one person and found boring by another. Just like a good drama can be riveting to one persona and put someone else to sleep.

Gameplay design is just as subjective as sound and art design are. For example I don't like button mashers like God of War. The gameplay just doesn't appeal to me. I don't think the God of War games are garbage just because I don't enjoy them. The gameplay is top quality for people who like button mashers. I just don't like button mashers.



MARCUSDJACKSON on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:
MARCUSDJACKSON said:
see the stupidest thing someone can do is make a thread asking which is more important. you know the list.

Presentation depends souly, on how you view presentation, and what's exceptable to you.

Sorry, you lost me at "stupidest", all the typos, the horrible punctuation, my uncertainty as to whether or not you're in the wrong thread (I made the gameplay vs story+ thread a while ago) and even if you were in the right thread, what exactly you're bringing of value to OP?

So you're saying presentation is subjective, as if that hasn't been mentioned before?

according to my list, only 2 typos, but i new that before posting. and since when have i been known for punctuation?

 

both are subjective.



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Official Playstation Vita Thread!

write reveiws, articles, share thoughts, and expand on discussion like never before on gamewise.co/brainwaves

Marucha on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:

Of course this is my opinion, and my opinion's argument is that people who say "Art is subjective" are using that phrase incorrectly. There is a lot of theory behind art (which I have not learned myself) and I know that there is a measure of formality to art as well, so since that was my argument and my point, you flailing your diploma or whatever it is you have to reduce the credibility of my post is nothing more than snobbism, imho.

Wow, that got personal really fast.

Forget it.



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Mazty on 09 March 2013
kain_kusanagi said:
Mazty said:
happydolphin said:

The hypocritical trend I've found in this forum is that when people talk about gameplay, it's all fair game. There's no question about it being YOUR  opinion, or about it just being subjective. People will consider game slike NSMB as the holy grail of gameplay and everyone's okay with that.

But what happens when we talk about presentation, graphical style, graphics, music, cadence, plot, characters. Suddenly it all becomes subjective. Suddently when saying that one game lacks in that department, you become some kind of a high-class snob.

So when someone reasonably states that NSMB as a series has absolutely no value when it comes to excellence in presentation, suddenly he is speaking out of opinion, is a basher, a troll and a snob.

 

I'd like anyone who is also sick of this mentality to voice their opinions on it. Yes, Rol and Moreno, if you think this is a response to your behavior in my gunman clive thread, you are correct, I'm actually pretty irate right now.

Oh I like to argue that gameplay isn't subjective. I also have one of the worst moderation reputations on this site. Go figure why the site has therefore ended up as the site you describe.

If gameplay isn't subjective than why do some people love GTA and others don't. Why do some prefer JRPGs to WRPGs? Why do some people like shooters and others only play slashers?

Now, with that said, a broken game is a broken game, that's not subjective. Just like bad acting is bad acting. But a game with perfectly playable gameplay can be enjoyed by one person and found boring by another. Just like a good drama can be riveting to one persona and put someone else to sleep.

Gameplay design is just as subjective as sound and art design are. For example I don't like button mashers like God of War. The gameplay just doesn't appeal to me. I don't think the God of War games are garbage just because I don't enjoy them. The gameplay is top quality for people who like button mashers. I just don't like button mashers.

 

There's gameplay, then there is genres. 

Some people may enjoy GTA, but objectively everyone can comment about the gameplay. If the cars handle like shit with poor AI, the gameplay will be bad regardless of if you like the actual genre or not.