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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Crytek nearly launched Crysis 3 on WiiU but it had to die

coolguy said:
Crytek should just die.

Why? It is the rare example of a german game-dev. Instead they should grow, so that our stupid politician no longer make stupid laws against games. Because if there is something our stupid politicians can better than creating stupid laws it is brown-nosing for big companies.



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Mnementh said:

And looking at general gaming-sales: Every budget that needs more than 1 million units to break even is stupid and the risk of losses is extremely high. Most AAA-games should break even on some 100K units. Porting-costs are usually much more smaller (i pointed out the reasons in the previous paragraph). Some 10K sounds reasonable for a port of a AAA-game with some effort put into making it a good port.


Are you kidding? A game that would break even at 100k units is be very definition not AAA, a $3-4 total budget game is relegated to downloadable/indie games and shovelware. Hell in todays market a 1 million unit break even point would be a B teir game  in the eyes of the major publishers. Your average AAA game has a production budget of $20-50 million plus marketing which is usally about as much as the production budget so break even for most AAA games is somewhere between ~1-3m units at full price with some of the bigger games such as CoD, GTA etc needing 4-8m units to break even on their $50-100 million development budgets and even bigger marketing budgets.



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zarx said:
Mnementh said:

And looking at general gaming-sales: Every budget that needs more than 1 million units to break even is stupid and the risk of losses is extremely high. Most AAA-games should break even on some 100K units. Porting-costs are usually much more smaller (i pointed out the reasons in the previous paragraph). Some 10K sounds reasonable for a port of a AAA-game with some effort put into making it a good port.


Are you kidding? A game that would break even at 100k units is be very definition not AAA, a $3-4 total budget game is relegated to downloadable/indie games and shovelware. Hell in todays market a 1 million unit break even point would be a B teir game  in the eyes of the major publishers. Your average AAA game has a production budget of $20-50 million plus marketing which is usally about as much as the production budget so break even for most AAA games is somewhere between ~1-3m units at full price with some of the bigger games such as CoD, GTA etc needing 4-8m units to break even on their $50-100 million development budgets and even bigger marketing budgets.

Well, 300K-700K I assume at full retail price for a game like Crysis. If it needs millions to break even, we would never had seen a sequel (because companies don't want to barely break even, they want to make profit). 10% for a port, more for a GOOD gamepad-integration. Most AAA-games should be in the area of some 100K (=multiple times 100K). Only a few probably can calculate with millions sold units at full price for breaking even, COD is one of these rare examples. Although I assume Activision also happily calculates with less and cashes in on the franchise.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Mnementh said:
zarx said:
Mnementh said:

And looking at general gaming-sales: Every budget that needs more than 1 million units to break even is stupid and the risk of losses is extremely high. Most AAA-games should break even on some 100K units. Porting-costs are usually much more smaller (i pointed out the reasons in the previous paragraph). Some 10K sounds reasonable for a port of a AAA-game with some effort put into making it a good port.


Are you kidding? A game that would break even at 100k units is be very definition not AAA, a $3-4 total budget game is relegated to downloadable/indie games and shovelware. Hell in todays market a 1 million unit break even point would be a B teir game  in the eyes of the major publishers. Your average AAA game has a production budget of $20-50 million plus marketing which is usally about as much as the production budget so break even for most AAA games is somewhere between ~1-3m units at full price with some of the bigger games such as CoD, GTA etc needing 4-8m units to break even on their $50-100 million development budgets and even bigger marketing budgets.

Well, 300K-700K I assume at full retail price for a game like Crysis. If it needs millions to break even, we would never had seen a sequel (because companies don't want to barely break even, they want to make profit). 10% for a port, more for a GOOD gamepad-integration. Most AAA-games should be in the area of some 100K (=multiple times 100K). Only a few probably can calculate with millions sold units at full price for breaking even, COD is one of these rare examples. Although I assume Activision also happily calculates with less and cashes in on the franchise.


The first Crysis game had a budget of $22m, it went on to sell 3.5 million units mostly at a budget price and was profitable. Crysis 3 has a budget around three times bigger according to Crytek and that is without marketing. It's break even is likely somwhere around 2.5 million units. Crysis 2 managed almost 3 million units according to VGChartz not counting PC digital sales. CoD Modern Warfare 2 had a budget of an estimated $40-50m plus over $200m in marketing making it's break even point more than 7 million units but CoD games sell tens of millions and brings in $billions each year so they can afford it. Some analysts have estimated that GTA 5 has a development budget is around $137m and will likely have a marketing budget to match. Skyrim had a total budget of development plus marketing of $85m giving it a 2.5m unit break even. Darksiders 2 had a 2 million unit break even etc. These kinds of budgets aren't even new Final Fantasy 7 aparently cost $45m back in the day which ajusted for inflation is $64.23 million which is more than FF XIII with a $50-60m budget. AAA games are bloody expensive http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Most_expensive_video_games.

A barebones Wii U port aparently costs ~$1m which is around 30k units at full price $60 not counting marketing etc, but more importantly means valuable man hours that may be better spent on other projects. 



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Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

EA are just cutting off their noses to spite their face...but I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that they'll invest in Wii U ports after the PS4 and 720 are released, I can see the Wii U having an installed userbase between 10 and 15m before the end of the year and development costs will probably rise so they'll want to spread that cost across as many platforms as possible.

A price cut in November combined with the releases of 3D Mario and Mario Kart should see consoles flying off shelves.

The one platform I'm concerned about regarding third party support isn't the Wii U but the PS4. Squeezing in 8GB of GDDR5 is a huge mistake, and their GPU isn't going to be cheap either. There's no way that Sony are in the position to make a huge loss on each unit sold, it's going to be over 400 dollars/pounds imo. The price combined with the CPU and GPU being on what's likely to be a 32nm or 28nm process means there's going to be a lot of wasted silicon so production is going to be slow. The PS4 is a disaster waiting to happen imo.



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zarx said:
The first Crysis game had a budget of $22m, it went on to sell 3.5 million units mostly at a budget price and was profitable. Crysis 3 has a budget around three times bigger according to Crytek and that is without marketing. It's break even is likely somwhere around 2.5 million units. Crysis 2 managed almost 3 million units according to VGChartz not counting PC digital sales. CoD Modern Warfare 2 had a budget of an estimated $40-50m plus over $200m in marketing making it's break even point more than 7 million units but CoD games sell tens of millions and brings in $billions each year so they can afford it. Some analysts have estimated that GTA 5 has a development budget is around $137m and will likely have a marketing budget to match. Skyrim had a total budget of development plus marketing of $85m giving it a 2.5m unit break even. Darksiders 2 had a 2 million unit break even etc. These kinds of budgets aren't even new Final Fantasy 7 aparently cost $45m back in the day which ajusted for inflation is $64.23 million which is more than FF XIII with a $50-60m budget. AAA games are bloody expensive http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Most_expensive_video_games.

A barebones Wii U port aparently costs ~$1m which is around 30k units at full price $60 not counting marketing etc, but more importantly means valuable man hours that may be better spent on other projects. 


A 2.5 M for Crysis isn't much of a problem. But the high development costs of this game are counting the costs to develop the engine, so they got some money when licensing the engine. Crysis is more like a tech demo to sell their engine and with the US$ 1.2 M basic price (at least in the last data I saw), any license sold is a solid revenue. And looking at the list of CryEngine games (that had a solid grow with version 3 compared to CryEngine 2), they got 19 games made with their engine, that would be around solid US$ 22 M in revenue.

Of course, they have cheaper licenses for indies and even a model that you got the license for free and they grab 20% of the total revenue, but I don't think that many indies would use something as complex as CryEngine (Unity is a cheaper and much more easy to develop for that CryEngine or Unreal), so we can assume that they got something around US$ 15 M to US$ 22 with the engine only.

Edit: I found this guy saying that the US$ 1.2 M price isn't accurate, but he didn't posted any value, so the real cost could be different and probably we will only know it if CryTek makes an official statement.



kitler53 said:
Mnementh said:
hunter_alien said:
Maybe the cost of finishing the game and publishing it would have been to high to justify the release? I mean we are looking at sales that would have probabaly been under 100k LT, and the majority would have come from bargain bin sales.

Maybe EA much rather focused that money on advertising the PC/360/PS3, and by the looks of it, the game will do decent numbers.

Are you kidding me? Epic Mickey did 100K on WiiU. Crysis should surely made more and would sell to a growing base too. And 100K are more enough to pay for a port. Some 10K should be enough for that.

you under estimate porting cost.  QA takes a lot of effort.  even if no dev was required at all QA tests for  wiiU port would be $1-2M.  a bare bones port would need more like 50-100k to break even.  more if the game gets wiiU specific gameplay leveraging the gamepad.

If Take 2 moves in with their sports titles. I would expect EA to move also. Because as someone pointed out earlier, the thing EA did with Sega hurt their sports games because of the 2K series. And leaving an opening for Take 2 to move in a do more damage to their "bread and butter" franchises. Plus with the NFL rights up again, it may make Take 2 look like a better partner if they do move.

EA is also probally going to see the sales proformance of NFS and Lego City before green lighting any more titles, and since Crysis 3 is technically "done" for it, if they need money it will probally be green lighted.



torok said:
Mnementh said:

NFS probably will be a great game, that's why I plan to buy it. Same with batman, I own it. I don't care for AC though. I was probably a bit harsh here. Point is, many 3rd-party games are really subpar, they often think they come away with horrible bad games. but even for the good ones: nobody forces a Nintendo-fan to buy the games, if he hasn't an interest in them. and for all three games is one thing true: they were all out for PS3 and X360 earlier than for WiiU. That also influences sales naturally. Do we have at this point even one multiplat that was released the same time on WiiU as on other consoles and was not gimped? I can't come up with a name.

To the cost-factor: porting mostly involves programming and (to a bigger degree) testing for specific bugs. The models, the textures, music, leveldesign, overall game direction, general game testing and so on is already done. And that by far exceeds the manpower of programming the game in the first place. Porting involves even less programming, especially if some toolkit/engine is used, as it is standard these days. Early WiiU-games might possibly need more tweaking on the engine, that is true - but that is also a work that can be reused for later releases.

And looking at general gaming-sales: Every budget that needs more than 1 million units to break even is stupid and the risk of losses is extremely high. Most AAA-games should break even on some 100K units. Porting-costs are usually much more smaller (i pointed out the reasons in the previous paragraph). Some 10K sounds reasonable for a port of a AAA-game with some effort put into making it a good port.


I agree about how easy a port can be since Wii U is being described as a dev-friendly platform and the extra power makes everything easier when porting from the HD twins. But 100k doesn't looks enough to break even. 100k X US$ 60 is US$ 6 millions and that can't pay a reasonable amount of the bigger games. Despite that, Crysis is probably more focused in being a tech demo to sell Cryengine licenses than necessarily break even, so a Wii U version would show another platform running their engine. It would be nice if someone had some data about porting costs to allow a better analysis on how much it would need to sell.

it's ballpark of 1M dollars according to Ubi but realistically 1 to 2M in general.   ...also 100k x $60 isn't the correct multiplier as the publisher only earns about half after retail and platform owner's cuts.  100k x $60 /2 = $3M.  50 to 100k is the break even point.  keep in mind, business is all about profits.  if a game is only expected to break even than there will be "no business drive" to work on the project.



BlkPaladin said:
kitler53 said:
Mnementh said:
hunter_alien said:
Maybe the cost of finishing the game and publishing it would have been to high to justify the release? I mean we are looking at sales that would have probabaly been under 100k LT, and the majority would have come from bargain bin sales.

Maybe EA much rather focused that money on advertising the PC/360/PS3, and by the looks of it, the game will do decent numbers.

Are you kidding me? Epic Mickey did 100K on WiiU. Crysis should surely made more and would sell to a growing base too. And 100K are more enough to pay for a port. Some 10K should be enough for that.

you under estimate porting cost.  QA takes a lot of effort.  even if no dev was required at all QA tests for  wiiU port would be $1-2M.  a bare bones port would need more like 50-100k to break even.  more if the game gets wiiU specific gameplay leveraging the gamepad.

If Take 2 moves in with their sports titles. I would expect EA to move also. Because as someone pointed out earlier, the thing EA did with Sega hurt their sports games because of the 2K series. And leaving an opening for Take 2 to move in a do more damage to their "bread and butter" franchises. Plus with the NFL rights up again, it may make Take 2 look like a better partner if they do move.

EA is also probally going to see the sales proformance of NFS and Lego City before green lighting any more titles, and since Crysis 3 is technically "done" for it, if they need money it will probally be green lighted.


if wiiU sales pick up and if ps4/xbox8 ports to wiiU aren't too expensive. 



kitler53 said:
BlkPaladin said:
kitler53 said:
Mnementh said:
hunter_alien said:
Maybe the cost of finishing the game and publishing it would have been to high to justify the release? I mean we are looking at sales that would have probabaly been under 100k LT, and the majority would have come from bargain bin sales.

Maybe EA much rather focused that money on advertising the PC/360/PS3, and by the looks of it, the game will do decent numbers.

Are you kidding me? Epic Mickey did 100K on WiiU. Crysis should surely made more and would sell to a growing base too. And 100K are more enough to pay for a port. Some 10K should be enough for that.

you under estimate porting cost.  QA takes a lot of effort.  even if no dev was required at all QA tests for  wiiU port would be $1-2M.  a bare bones port would need more like 50-100k to break even.  more if the game gets wiiU specific gameplay leveraging the gamepad.

If Take 2 moves in with their sports titles. I would expect EA to move also. Because as someone pointed out earlier, the thing EA did with Sega hurt their sports games because of the 2K series. And leaving an opening for Take 2 to move in a do more damage to their "bread and butter" franchises. Plus with the NFL rights up again, it may make Take 2 look like a better partner if they do move.

EA is also probally going to see the sales proformance of NFS and Lego City before green lighting any more titles, and since Crysis 3 is technically "done" for it, if they need money it will probally be green lighted.


if wiiU sales pick up and if ps4/xbox8 ports to wiiU aren't too expensive. 

Unfortunatly it will suffer a simular fate as Mass Effect 3 and AC is, released too long afterward to have any meaningful mind share or the ones how whould of bought it got it on other platforms.