DaRev said:
Why would I be? |
Because every claim that's been put forth for the Bible's acuracy has been proven to be incorrect since Gallileo demonstrated that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.
DaRev said:
Why would I be? |
Because every claim that's been put forth for the Bible's acuracy has been proven to be incorrect since Gallileo demonstrated that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.
baph7667 said:
|
Sometime's i find it funny that people of one religion act as though one religion is rediculous because it's full of hole's yet will make up absurd explanation's for the contradiction's within their own bible. A
And just because a bible doe's not contradict itself or make's a few right prediction's does not mean that it's true. If their were a god who interfere in mortal affairs I'm sure that given how long it's been since he would most likely give us a few of those miracle's to give us a chance to observe his power and have some evidence.
This is the Game of Thrones
Where you either win
or you DIE
baph7667 said:
As for why humans seem to have a spiritual need for religion, a man named Matthew Alper ( http://www.godpart.com/ ) explains that pretty well in his book "The God Part of the Brain". At some point in its evolution mankind hit upon a existential crises when it realized that it would have to die at some point, so to compensate for that terrifying thought over time humans came up with and hotwired their brains to believe in the fantasy of the afterlife. For my part, I do think that this awareness of death and compensation for it may have even come about prior to human awareness and that's why you see things in the animal kingdom like cats entering a purring stage prior to death |
Firstly, thanks for correting my grammar. Secondly, there isn't SCIENCE that has actually proof of evolution. If we all evolved from apes, then how come we aren't super human-alien-primates by now? And if it does exist, then how or when will it know when to stop. We'd be evolving forever. And if It's our thinking pattern, and I don't think that the afterlife has anything to do with the existence of God. Only way evolution would work that way for EVERY single major culture that has existed is if something was "magical" pushing everyone to such beliefs. Food for thought.
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Aielyn said:
All three of those can be explained quite easily. Why do birds fly south for the winter? Depends on whether you mean the physiology or the purpose. If you mean the purpose, then it's pretty obvious - they've adapted to relatively warm, mild climates, and when the weather gets too hot or too cold, they move to more temperate areas. If you mean the physiology and mechanism, it's even on wikipedia. Why do birds know to sit on their eggs? That would be the same thing that enables fish to know how to swim on birth, or that enables human babies to know how to breathe - it's part of the nervous system, part of instinct. As for why man "created" the very first religions, that's also quite simple to explain. Man saw rain, and asked "why is water falling from the sky?" With no knowledge of evaporation and condensation, man came to the conclusion that some deity must have put it there. When man saw the sun move through the sky and asked why, man didn't understand that it was a massive ball of plasma burning due to nuclear fusion, or that the earth was a sphere that rotated through space, and came up with stories about how some deity moves it through the heavens, or other similar stories. When man discovered fire, man didn't go "heavy friction is causing increasing temperature, which is triggering combustion and thus resulting in fire", they concluded that it was a gift from some deity. Each phenomenon that they couldn't explain was given a theological explanation, because it's the best that they could do. However, as humanity grew in understanding, it became less necessary to have a god to explain each phenomenon; as such, the number of gods reduced, and stories were adjusted to suit. Eventually, there was no need for multiple gods, because understanding things like friction was relatively easy, leaving only the most existential of questions. Thus the formation of monotheistic religions. Science has superseded that, though. Great thinkers have realised that religion cannot solve the question of "why", because it just introduces new ones. God created the universe? So who created god? God has always existed? Why can't the universe have always existed? You get what I mean, of course. And so, in modern times, religion has broken into two groups. The first group is the personal deity - those who believe that god is within them, helping them with their lives. While I disagree with those within this group, I fully respect their belief. The second group is the hyper-organised religion - where there's this idea that the job of believers is to force their beliefs on everyone else. And sadly, a few such religions have succeeded in certain places. Christianity has forced itself on quite a few nations. Islam has forced itself upon others. Judaism is pretty much forced on Israelis. There are no doubt others, too. Anyway, even if none of the three things you mentioned had been explained, that would not be equivalent to saying that they could not be explained - that is, it's a huge leap from "we don't have an explanation" to "no explanation can exist". Because throughout history every mystery ever solved has turned out to be... not magic (thank you, Tim Minchin, for those words). Food for thought. |
You've anwsered the first two questions to an extent. But let me first say, why didn't man just think of it as athesist do; the World existed by chance, and we are a product of it. How come it's this newly found "science" that makes us doubt God? So what has possessed every single major society to yield to some unknown force. And as for science being the "death" of Religion, there isn't any proof to a lot of that stuff, and if increases in heat makes fire, then why does it do that? What makes the world spin and why? Why does the Earth spin? There is an never ending line of questions to most any topic. Nothing in this World can truely be explained, so why doubt the thing that has found it's way into more hearts and minds than most everything.
And I don't think any of these are forced. Unless it's a crime to not believe in God, no one's making you do anything. And it's the followers that do this, not their beliefs. Murdering is not Islam, niether is "forcing it", all Muslims must find there own interputation of the Quran, as with the early Bibles and Torah. It's this modern religion that already interputes it for us and also contributes to why people doubt God. If everyone in the World became atheists, I guarentee man would begin to believe afterwards, having found it from somewhere as our ancestors did.
As it's stated in these Books . "God is without defect, however, his creations are not." As it's stated that as fact pretty much that countries of wealth have a decrease in Religion. The blessing is in the struggle and without struggle we cannot rise above anything.
And BTW, no one has mentioned this but Imma put it there for perhaps future references. Darwn, believe that the big bang caused the creation of earth and that chance caused us. Man then evolve from apes into humans. And all animals evolve....
If any of this is true, when does the "evolution" decide to stop, and how come we aren't super humans compared to our ancestors? And why aren't cats shooting lasers yet?
And I'm not gonna list all the things in the Quran that couldn't even be close to proved at that time. Just look at "TheRightReligion.org" and look for the complete validation of Allah. And if you don't believe this, the first Quran still exists, and it's papers have been prove athentic from about 700 AD. The same century Muhammad died.
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SlayerRondo said:
I can gaurantee you most christian's and muslim's have not had a real good look through their holy book's because if they hd they woul have seen the long list of internal and external contradiction's with themselves and scientific fact's. You really think that if more people had a godlook at your holy book they would not find themselves embarrassed and disgusted by the god's proclaimed within? Muslim's probably should have re-written the Quran given how many absurd thing's are kept within it that most people would see as a poorly written piece of fiction. A book that a ritten 1300 year's ago is not proof of the existence of god and most people no believe in it for three reason's 1: Their parent's where folower's of that religion 2: Their afraid of death and can;t accept a world without god 3: Their culture is unaccepting of athiesm ranging from exclusion all the way to death for apostacy. Im guessing that you were simply brought up being taught islam and was imprinted upon you as a child when you were most vulnerable. If you were brought up christian you would be here ingoring the inconsistancy's of the bible and pointing out those of the Quran. Check out http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ for a list of contradiction's in the Quran with an open mind. |
I am not the best person to respond to the claims of contradiction, but reading some of it (being open minded) tells me that this list is just baloney.
I can give you a couple of examples:
- item 109: Muslims can adopt orphans ,However they can not change the child's last name to their name as Islam values the identity of the family. You are not the child's bio parents and will never be their parents.
-item 72 is really funny contradiction... so calling a prophet wife an old woman is a contradiction.....
As i said, i am not the best person to respond to each one of those items. Since we are trying to be open minded here, if some one tells you something, dont you want to make sure that what he is telling you is right or wrong?? thats the way i view those contradictions..... verify that those are true claims before you make a judgment.
Frank_kc said:
I can give you a couple of examples: - item 109: Muslims can adopt orphans ,However they can not change the child's last name to their name as Islam values the identity of the family. You are not the child's bio parents and will never be their parents. -item 72 is really funny contradiction... so calling a prophet wife an old woman is a contradiction.....
As i said, i am not the best person to respond to each one of those items. Since we are trying to be open minded here, if some one tells you something, dont you want to make sure that what he is telling you is right or wrong?? thats the way i view those contradictions..... verify that those are true claims before you make a judgment. |
Hmm not surprised you did not start off at the beginning of the list if you truly thought the list was a load of baloney but rather picked and chose which one's you thought made the least sense.
While item 72 is a bit of a strech (the point made on the site does mention that it may just be the wife is the old woman and believe's calling the wife of the supposed prophet that would be rude) but 109 ponit's out that the Quran acknoledges adoption then prohibit's itself.
The claim's about the Quran on that site use's the passages in the Quran to show how they contradict each other so to deny their evidence is to deny the Quran itself. I have seen the contradictions and almost all of them make sense to me and therefore the Quran must contain lie's and falsehood's that a god would not have put in there. If you cannot refute the contradiction's then you simply have to admit that part of the Quran is false and therefore either god screwed up or people made it up/ added their 2 cents.
And coming from someone who is not only a believer in god but a thiest i think that maybe you should take a good hard look at all the thing's that are wrong within your religion. You will find contradiction's within the Quran, between the Quran and history, contradiction's with proven scientific fact and a complete lack of evidence of any divine act of god.
And just a a reminder as someone making an assertion that your god is true the burden of proof is on you and other religious people to prove the existence of god and a book written over a millenium ago with an absurd amount of contradiction's and a complete lack of physical evidence is not going to cut it.
I understand that you've been brought up believing in islam and you like many other's have a strong belief and really want it to be true so will twist logic however you can to fit in with a religion that make's less and less sense every year as we learn more and more about the world around us and replace god as an explanation with scientific theory's.
This is the Game of Thrones
Where you either win
or you DIE
ToraTiger said:
|
No it's not food for though as i doubt you put any into you rediculously false claim that there is no proof for the science of evolution. The VAST majority of the scientific community believe in the theory of evolution given the VAST amount of evidence proving this fact to be true. Most of the one's who dont are associated with a religion and are twisting fact's to suit theory's instead of theory's to suit fact's.
You say that if evolution were true why have we not evolved into human-alien-primates. My response is that you are simply making an argument from ignorance and you do not understand how evolution works. Species evolve as a result of mutations that are beneficila to survival. That's why most creatures on earth poses eyes becuase having eyes is a huge advantage so the one's that developed eye's survived while the one's without adapted or died. The idea that you can rank species evolution according to their intelligence is also absurd as it is not pre-determined that human's have such a great survivability compared to other species (given the state were in now i am seriously beginning to doubt our chances of surviving).
And human's intelligence along with our ability to use that intelligence to over come disabilities may indeed negatively affect evolution over time as physically weaker people may be able to spread thir genes (not saying they shouldnt of course).
And yes most culture's have formed some kind of magical explanation for why lightning occurs or why they exist. But this was a result of a lack of understanding about the world around us and god was the only answer we could come up with at the time. Since then we have greately advanced our understanding of the world around us and no longer need to use god as an explanation as their is no evidence for god. Some people still cling to religion as a result of upbringing, fear of death and societal pressure to conform but eventurally religion could leave us alltogether.
For the best i think
This is the Game of Thrones
Where you either win
or you DIE
| SlayerRondo said:
The Quran's origin is no where near as clear as shakespear given the quran was supposedly written about 900 years before shakespear wrote his great works. I find it hard to believe that he was able to read but not write given that makes absolutely no sense and he was just some madman speaking whatever thought;s popped into his delusional head and other people wrote these things down resulting in multiple quran untill they were one day compiled to avoid needless fighting over what the Quran said (which given the current middle east failed tremendously) and that lead to a book that contain's multiple contradiction's. If part of the Quran is wrong than that leaves the strong possibility that all of it was wrong. Just go to http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ and you will see how many errors are in the Quran. Just because the Quran was consistent over time does not mean it wasnt consistently wrong. And to the point that the story of why god only told one man all of what was in the Quran being a story for another day is simply you not having an answer that does not sound nonsensical and cruel on god's part. Not to mention that it took him a while to get the message out there considering how long people had been in existence. And yes Muhammad did use force to spread islam and was married to a six year old and had sex with her at age nine. There is a reason why it seems unlikely he did not write it alone because he simply did not do it alone. I also find the fact that you believe the Quran in spite of contradictions and the evil god of the Quran who supposedly taunt's people by giving them only one prophet then sending no message since incredibly stupid. |
I'll take a look at the website in more detail later to see each one. Just because a website says it doesn't mean it is true, other things get lost in translation to English so I will see in my Arabic Quran what it was and tell you about each point if you want.
"And to the point that the story of why god only told one man all of what was in the Quran being a story for another day is simply you not having an answer that does not sound nonsensical and cruel on god's part. Not to mention that it took him a while to get the message out there considering how long people had been in existence."
Really? Really? So because I had just come home from work and was tired and didn't want to sit and write a massive essay on the subject means that I don't have an answer? Interesting.
The answer to that my friend is that God did send his message to ALL parts of the earth with many many many different messengers. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Isac, Jonas, Noah, Solomon, and many others that are known that I don't know about, and thousands of others that were never mentioned by name. These people were sent, some of them reached different levels of success than others. But, in the end all of the messages that God sent down had the same fate. They were corrupted beyond recognition.The Jewish religion. They refused to believe in Jesus their profecised Mesiah who would show them the truth. They ignored him and eventually tried to kill him. They now go on thinking that their Messiah is still to come. The Christian religion. Jesus is the son of god, and.....Honestly there really needs nothing more to prove the corruption of that once great religion. Then you have many others of the Abrahamic religions which pointed to the same thing. Finally The Prophet Mohamed came down to spread the Muslim Religion, this was the one prophesised in the other religions and all the other religions rejected him, do you know why? Because those religions had become corrupted. If he had come down to a Christian nation he would have been murdered offhand as a heretic. These nations had their chances at seeing the true religion and believing in God, and they decided to tailor the religion to what would make them the most comfortable and would offer them the most controll.
Do you know anything of spreading Islam by force? The actual idea of it was that the leaders, kings sultans ect.. of the different countries and tribes refused the entry of Islam in their country. In other words, they refused for their citizens to simply learn and choose for themselves. When a leader would refuse to simply let the thought and idea in their country he would go to war. To know about how peaceful the religion is, whe he took over Mecca from the Quraish Tribe, he went into the Kaaba with all of the leaders of that tribe. These were the people who posed the greatest threat to Islam when it was still growing. These people tourtured and taunted the Muslims and made thier lives a living hell. When the Prophet Mohamed went in the Kaaba he asked them what was he to do with them. They said, let us go. So he said "go for you are free".
The prosperity and he peace he brought to these nations that they conquered can't be understated. They brought something unheard of at the time. FREEDOM OF RELIGION. You were 100% free to beleive in whatever god you wanted and remain unmolested, unharrased and enjoy all of the benefits of being in the sate. They was a bit more expensive tax if memory serves, but when you think of the Spanish Inquisition......That really is nothing.
About Marrying a 6 year old, I think you are slightly exagerating how young she was but I could be wrong, I'll have to ask my fiancee, she is much more knowlagable about these things than I. However, I do have a couple of things that I can tell you. First of all, at that time marrying girls who were 10 years old was perfectly normal ALL OVER THE WORLD. Two, you take the matter at face value, sure he did that. But you forget a couple of very important facts.
1. It was by HER WILL. Under Islam a father and mother have no right to force their girl to get married. Another thing that took the western world centuries to figure out.
2. Our Mistress Aaisha was one of the most prominent figures in Islam and was essential to keeping the message true and pure decades after his death. She is one of the most revered Women in all of history and her place in Islam is one of reverence, respect and utmost admiration for what she did during and after the Prophet's death. It seems strange that you sit and talk about HE MARRIED HER AT 9 but then you don't even get the girl's point of view on the matter.
Finally I will end with this. "I find it hard to believe that he was able to read but not write given that makes absolutely no sense and he was just some madman speaking whatever thought;s popped into his delusional head and other people wrote these things down resulting in multiple quran untill they were one day compiled to avoid needless fighting over what the Quran said"
Ok, first of all, whenever he got a new part of the Quran, he told taught it to many people at the same time. When they were reciting the Wuran to have it written down, all of them had heard the same thing and got together to ensure that there were no discrepency's between themselves. In other words, they did it to make sure everyone knew the SAME words sentences ect... And this Madman's work, as you call it, is of a beauty that you can't imagine unless you read it in Arabic. As I said I will look at your contradictions and see if they hold any water but....How many madmen throughout history have completely changed how the whole world works. Create a system that IF FOLLOWED PROPERLY would make a society wonderful, that has influenced over a billion in one given age and became (I believe) the most quoted person in history loved, revered, respected but Muslims and Non-Muslims (who have studied histroy properly) alike.
Do you have any more questions?
Fireforgey said:
"And to the point that the story of why god only told one man all of what was in the Quran being a story for another day is simply you not having an answer that does not sound nonsensical and cruel on god's part. Not to mention that it took him a while to get the message out there considering how long people had been in existence."
Really? Really? So because I had just come home from work and was tired and didn't want to sit and write a massive essay on the subject means that I don't have an answer? Interesting. The answer to that my friend is that God did send his message to ALL parts of the earth with many many many different messengers. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Isac, Jonas, Noah, Solomon, and many others that are known that I don't know about, and thousands of others that were never mentioned by name. These people were sent, some of them reached different levels of success than others. But, in the end all of the messages that God sent down had the same fate. They were corrupted beyond recognition.The Jewish religion. They refused to believe in Jesus their profecised Mesiah who would show them the truth. They ignored him and eventually tried to kill him. They now go on thinking that their Messiah is still to come. The Christian religion. Jesus is the son of god, and.....Honestly there really needs nothing more to prove the corruption of that once great religion. Then you have many others of the Abrahamic religions which pointed to the same thing. Finally The Prophet Mohamed came down to spread the Muslim Religion, this was the one prophesised in the other religions and all the other religions rejected him, do you know why? Because those religions had become corrupted. If he had come down to a Christian nation he would have been murdered offhand as a heretic. These nations had their chances at seeing the true religion and believing in God, and they decided to tailor the religion to what would make them the most comfortable and would offer them the most controll.
Do you know anything of spreading Islam by force? The actual idea of it was that the leaders, kings sultans ect.. of the different countries and tribes refused the entry of Islam in their country. In other words, they refused for their citizens to simply learn and choose for themselves. When a leader would refuse to simply let the thought and idea in their country he would go to war. To know about how peaceful the religion is, whe he took over Mecca from the Quraish Tribe, he went into the Kaaba with all of the leaders of that tribe. These were the people who posed the greatest threat to Islam when it was still growing. These people tourtured and taunted the Muslims and made thier lives a living hell. When the Prophet Mohamed went in the Kaaba he asked them what was he to do with them. They said, let us go. So he said "go for you are free". The prosperity and he peace he brought to these nations that they conquered can't be understated. They brought something unheard of at the time. FREEDOM OF RELIGION. You were 100% free to beleive in whatever god you wanted and remain unmolested, unharrased and enjoy all of the benefits of being in the sate. They was a bit more expensive tax if memory serves, but when you think of the Spanish Inquisition......That really is nothing.
About Marrying a 6 year old, I think you are slightly exagerating how young she was but I could be wrong, I'll have to ask my fiancee, she is much more knowlagable about these things than I. However, I do have a couple of things that I can tell you. First of all, at that time marrying girls who were 10 years old was perfectly normal ALL OVER THE WORLD. Two, you take the matter at face value, sure he did that. But you forget a couple of very important facts. 1. It was by HER WILL. Under Islam a father and mother have no right to force their girl to get married. Another thing that took the western world centuries to figure out. 2. Our Mistress Aaisha was one of the most prominent figures in Islam and was essential to keeping the message true and pure decades after his death. She is one of the most revered Women in all of history and her place in Islam is one of reverence, respect and utmost admiration for what she did during and after the Prophet's death. It seems strange that you sit and talk about HE MARRIED HER AT 9 but then you don't even get the girl's point of view on the matter. Finally I will end with this. "I find it hard to believe that he was able to read but not write given that makes absolutely no sense and he was just some madman speaking whatever thought;s popped into his delusional head and other people wrote these things down resulting in multiple quran untill they were one day compiled to avoid needless fighting over what the Quran said" Ok, first of all, whenever he got a new part of the Quran, he told taught it to many people at the same time. When they were reciting the Wuran to have it written down, all of them had heard the same thing and got together to ensure that there were no discrepency's between themselves. In other words, they did it to make sure everyone knew the SAME words sentences ect... And this Madman's work, as you call it, is of a beauty that you can't imagine unless you read it in Arabic. As I said I will look at your contradictions and see if they hold any water but....How many madmen throughout history have completely changed how the whole world works. Create a system that IF FOLLOWED PROPERLY would make a society wonderful, that has influenced over a billion in one given age and became (I believe) the most quoted person in history loved, revered, respected but Muslims and Non-Muslims (who have studied histroy properly) alike. Do you have any more questions? |
So the idea of Islam was justification for the killing of ten's of thousands of people? Why did god not just send a message to these leader's who were afraid of the influence of Islam? Could he just not be bothered to make his position clear to those who would oppose a system fo belief that has zero evidence to support itself.
And yes things were different back then but god is supposed to be eternal and he did not see fit to mention how despicable it was to marry a six year old and have sex with her at the age of nine. Just because people did bad thing's back then doe's not mean they should get off the hook especially when their the supposed phrophet of islam. And the girl's point of view on having sex at the age of NINE is irrelevant because she is NINE. Deal with it, you prophet was a pedophile.
And the good of islam that you claim would only exist in a society where everyone was gullible enough to ignore the contradiction's of Islam within itself and with scientific facts. And you're claim that you have to read it in a certain language is preposterous and simply a cheap answer to the question that hold's no weight. The english language is capable of expressing the ideals contained within the Quran and you simply cannot explain all the part's that make no sense.
The discrepencies between themselves on what they though mohammad said are clearly visible in the Quran when it states scientifically disproven hypothesis and contradicts ITSELF. And the artistic merits of the book do not lend to it's credibility. Shakespear's works were artictic thing;s of beauty but no one go's around claming them to be the word of god now do they? Or if you truly bought into the Quran simple because it sounded nice and made you feel good then i feel genuinly sorry for you and hope you can see how rediculous it all is one day.
How do you know that a devil like being was not the one wispering to muhammad so that he could cause people to hate and fight each other for hundred's of year's over who has the roght of it.
And yes some madmen have done great thing's but most of them are just bonkers. Given the lack of evidence of his claim I'm going with either bonker's or attention seeking liar.
Do not bind yourself to the past but look to the future. If god does exist simply tell him he did not provide enough proof and if he's a loving god he will probably let you into heaven anyway.
This is the Game of Thrones
Where you either win
or you DIE
ToraTiger said:
|
We are super human alien pimates in comparison to our ancient ancestors. They would perceive us to be Gods and we can basically do everything they considered to be Godlike from being able to create sentient lifeforms ie. look how smart computers are supposed to be in fifty years to being able to destroy the earth with nuclear bombs.
There's not really any food for thought there. Almost all cultures had their rises and falls that were incorporated into their mythologies. Nice years for them were interpreted as some God or Gods smiling upon them and their catastrophes were viewed as God's wrath. Since most of their catastrophes were environmental in nature and they had no scientific understanding of nature you see things like floods popping up in various ancient myths because they were all each subjected to rainstorms of varying severity, earthquakes, volcanoes etc.
On Islam: a film that was pretty controversial in certain circles came out a few months ago and I don't think it was ever completed but it was basically accurate in what it had to say about Islam and its origins.