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Forums - General - If God doesnt exist then who wrote the bible ?

Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
ToraTiger said:
Well, there is a lot of things in this World that can't be explained. Like why do birds fly south for the winter? Why do these birds know to sit on their eggs? Why did man 'create' the very first religions? You see, we (Muslims) believe that God exists in all of us. (Even atheists) And that books like the Bible, Torah and others all contain some belief to God presences. In other words; Man has followed religion since the beginning of time, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, all believe in a greater power. Where Christianity is concern, the Bible has been altered so many ways and so many times that it has lost some of it's divinity. See, this is the cause to all the "Atheists" that have been brought up in recent years. Though it shames me to say it, even Islam has been altered to some extend in certain places. Like the misrepresentation of Jihad. And if someone was to sit down, lose every bit of knowledge of Religion that society has thought them (I believe the alternation of Bible is the key to why so many disbelieve in God) And I'd bet that child would grow up believing in God.

No one seems to care about the "likeliness" of things that are contained in these books and are only concerned with the contradiction that exist, and why wouldn't some exist? It was created in a time where the live style and definition was COMPLETELY different. Not to mention things that could be lost in translation. So to make my point, read a 'clean' Bible, Quran, Torah or anything else, and find "your" definition of it. As I've said before that's why the worlds in it's current Religious state, people feel like Religion is just like their native governments trying to control their life. So instead of living by what you're parents or whoever told you, or what society has fed you, just pick up a book and decide what it means for yourself. As I see a lot of Atheist don't seem to have any sort of knowledge beside the very basics of Christianity. (Christ is God, father, son, holy ghost, he died for our sins ect. )

That said I'm not a Christian.

Lastly, someone just answer me this, if God doesn't exist and we humans are the closest things to it there are, they how come since the beginning of time there have been many ancients praying and yielding to something that doesn't exist ?

I can gaurantee you most christian's and muslim's have not had a real good look through their holy book's because if they hd they woul have seen the long list of internal and external contradiction's with themselves and scientific fact's. You really think that if more people had a godlook at your holy book they would not find themselves embarrassed and disgusted by the god's proclaimed within?

Muslim's probably should have re-written the Quran given how many absurd thing's are kept within it that most people would see as a poorly written piece of fiction. A book that a ritten 1300 year's ago is not proof of the existence of god and most people no believe in it for three reason's

1: Their parent's where folower's of that religion 

2: Their afraid of death and can;t accept a world without god

3: Their culture is unaccepting of athiesm ranging from exclusion all the way to death for apostacy. 

Im guessing that you were simply brought up being taught islam and was imprinted upon you as a child when you were most vulnerable. If you were brought up christian you would be here ingoring the inconsistancy's of the bible and pointing out those of the Quran. 

Check out http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ for a list of contradiction's in the Quran with an open mind.


I am not the best person to respond to the claims of contradiction, but reading some of it (being open minded) tells me that this list is just baloney.

I can give you a couple of examples:

- item 109: Muslims can  adopt orphans ,However they can not change the child's last name to their name as Islam values the identity of the family. You are not the child's bio parents and will never be their parents.

-item 72 is really funny contradiction... so calling a prophet wife an old woman is a contradiction.....

 

As i said, i am not the best person to respond to each one of those items. Since we are trying to be open minded here, if some one tells you something, dont you want to make sure that what he is telling you is right or wrong?? thats the way i view those contradictions..... verify that those are true claims before you make a judgment.


Hmm not surprised you did not start off at the beginning of the list if you truly thought the list was a load of baloney but rather picked and chose which one's you thought made the least sense.

While item 72 is a bit of a strech (the point made on the site does mention that it may just be the wife is the old woman and believe's calling the wife of the supposed prophet that would be rude) but 109 ponit's out that the Quran acknoledges adoption then prohibit's itself.

The claim's about the Quran on that site use's the passages in the Quran to show how they contradict each other so to deny their evidence is to deny the Quran itself. I have seen the contradictions and almost all of them make sense to me and therefore the Quran must contain lie's and falsehood's that a god would not have put in there. If you cannot refute the contradiction's then you simply have to admit that part of the Quran is false and therefore either god screwed up or people made it up/ added their 2 cents.

And coming from someone who is not only a believer in god but a thiest i think that maybe you should take a good hard look at all the thing's that are wrong within your religion. You will find contradiction's within the Quran, between the Quran and history, contradiction's with proven scientific fact and a complete lack of evidence of any divine act of god. 

And just a a reminder as someone making an assertion that your god is true the burden of proof is on you and other religious people to prove the existence of god and a book written over a millenium ago with an absurd amount of contradiction's and a complete lack of physical evidence is not going to cut it. 

I understand that you've been brought up believing in islam and you like many other's have a strong belief and really want it to be true so will twist logic however you can to fit in with a religion that make's less and less sense every year as we learn more and more about the world around us and replace god as an explanation with scientific theory's.

 

I have not picked and select from the list, as I told you, i am not the most experienced person in Islam to respond to the contradiction claims listed on that web page. More examples:

 

- Item 4: i can challenge any one in this world that the Quran said that Muhammad has seen god. The part referenced here 53-1 doesn’t say in any kind of translation that Muhammad has seen god. Here is the a reference with translation to English:

 

http://quran.com/53

It says that Muhammad have seen signs of his lord, not the lord him self.

 

- Item 7: Although the point says that god said that angels cant cause people to die, there is no reference what so ever to this in the Quran like other references of contradiction listed on this website. However, all three references to angles causing people to die ( referenced by chapter in this point) are consistent and accurate.

 

-item 24: The first time when Mary was giving birth to Jesus, there was only one angel who talked to her. The other contradiction which the site claims about a group of angels is different since it was not at the time when she was giving birth to Jesus. There is no single reference in that chapter that indicate that those group of angels who asked Mary to pray to only one god happened when she was giving birth to Jesus.

 

As I said earlier, those are more examples about how baloney are those contradictions. When you need to learn something, learn it from the source and be open minded as you want others to be open minded.

 


You are simply interpreting thing's in a manner to support your claim's rather than looking at thing's from un unbiased perspective.

At this point I'm simply inclined to say that it does not matter what evidence is put forward you will simply twist and turn and interpret things to your liking. 

There was a point when I  really wanted to believe in god and would cling to any explanation for the bible no matter how absurd it may seem to me now that I look at it just like the Quran as a fairy tale. 

Also the Quran's acknoledgement of other religion's being judaism and christianity mean's it has taken large part's of their baguage as well.

And just whilewere at it some of your explanation's for the contradiction's such as it being sign's of god he saw are false. He did see god as claimed in the Quran and therefore the Quran has contradicted itself. As well as the fact that the timing of when the Quran was established and how accurately it represents of muhammad said are widely disputed among historic scholars as well as dissenters not getting a fair say back then when islam was taking off thus we are presented with a biased view of history.

Just look at the state of Islamic lead nation's today and tell me it does not resemble christianity 700 years ago. If allah really did set islam in motion and not people's delusion's/lie's then he is truly an evil god for the pain he has caused through his ambiguity and lackluster attempt to spread his truth.

I rest my case, even when i provided your for the source from the quran, you still insist that Muhammed has seen god. I dont see us going any where with this discussion. did you even open the link I sent you to check whats written there?

The prblem is that you are interpreting the Quran in a way that i think is biased and not reasonable.

As a sidenote do you believe in evolution and the the world is over a billion years old?



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Where you either win

or you DIE

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Jay520 said:
DaRev said:
I honestly don't understand how intelligent people don't believe 'God wrote the Bible'. Like there's some dude or group of dudes out somewhere just thinking up crazy stuff trying to control people, but not ever revealing their identity or group or ever taking the credit, but letting other people like the Church get all the credit o_O

If I wrote the Bible you sure as hell bet I would want the credit and all the royalties! It just doesn't make any sense, to believe that some man or group wrote the bible.


Well considering the fact that there's plenty of different bibles from contradicting religions, it is obvious that most of those bibles are false, and were written by people, not the supposed God of their religion. That is proof of Bibles being written by man (unless you believe all bibles from all religions are somehow true). As for why anyone would "waste their time" writing a Bible....well, it's quite easy to see the value of large populations of people willingly placing absolute faith and obedience into a specific system of behaviors and attitudes.

There is only one Bible, i.e. the Christian one.

People, place their faith in the Bible because they hear it, i.e. the words therein, and it connects with their common sense and to a greater extent with the spiritual part of them, so they don't follow it blind because everyone else is doing it. In any event who do you suppose is benefiting from this "value" you're talking about?



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

DaRev said:
Jay520 said:
DaRev said:
I honestly don't understand how intelligent people don't believe 'God wrote the Bible'. Like there's some dude or group of dudes out somewhere just thinking up crazy stuff trying to control people, but not ever revealing their identity or group or ever taking the credit, but letting other people like the Church get all the credit o_O

If I wrote the Bible you sure as hell bet I would want the credit and all the royalties! It just doesn't make any sense, to believe that some man or group wrote the bible.


Well considering the fact that there's plenty of different bibles from contradicting religions, it is obvious that most of those bibles are false, and were written by people, not the supposed God of their religion. That is proof of Bibles being written by man (unless you believe all bibles from all religions are somehow true). As for why anyone would "waste their time" writing a Bible....well, it's quite easy to see the value of large populations of people willingly placing absolute faith and obedience into a specific system of behaviors and attitudes.

There is only one Bible, i.e. the Christian one.

People, place their faith in the Bible because they hear it, i.e. the words therein, and it connects with their common sense and to a greater extent with the spiritual part of them, so they don't follow it blind because everyone else is doing it. In any event who do you suppose is benefiting from this "value" you're talking about?


That is the same answer people from other religion's give. People claim faith because they don't have any good answer's.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

baph7667 said:
ToraTiger said:
Well, there is a lot of things in this World that can't be explained. Like why do birds fly south for the winter? Why do these birds know to sit on their eggs? Why did man 'create' the very first religions? You see, we (Muslims) believe that God exists in all of us. (Even atheists) And that books like the Bible, Torah and others all contain some belief to God presences. In other words; Man has followed religion since the beginning of time, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, all believe in a greater power. Where Christianity is concern, the Bible has been altered so many ways and so many times that it has lost some of it's divinity. See, this is the cause to all the "Atheists" that have been brought up in recent years. Though it shames me to say it, even Islam has been altered to some extend in certain places. Like the misrepresentation of Jihad. And if someone was to sit down, lose every bit of knowledge of Religion that society has thought them (I believe the alternation of Bible is the key to why so many disbelieve in God) And I'd bet that child would grow up believing in God.

No one seems to care about the "likeliness" of things that are contained in these books and are only concerned with the contradiction that exist, and why wouldn't some exist? It was created in a time where the live style and definition was COMPLETELY different. Not to mention things that could be lost in translation. So to make my point, read a 'clean' Bible, Quran, Torah or anything else, and find "your" definition of it. As I've said before that's why the worlds in it's current Religious state, people feel like Religion is just like their native governments trying to control their life. So instead of living by what you're parents or whoever told you, or what society has fed you, just pick up a book and decide what it means for yourself. As I see a lot of Atheist don't seem to have any sort of knowledge beside the very basics of Christianity. (Christ is God, father, son, holy ghost, he died for our sins ect. )

That said I'm not a Christian.

Lastly, someone just answer me this, if God doesn't exist and we humans are the closest things to it there are, they how come since the beginning of time there have been many ancients praying and yielding to something that doesn't exist ?


The "likeness" is explainable by the fact that they're all just following the typical evolutionary pattern of the thinking patterns of human beings.  That's why you see so many similarities between so many cultures.  It's because evolution tends to follow similar paths.

As for why humans seem to have a spiritual need for religion, a man named Matthew Alper (  http://www.godpart.com/ ) explains that pretty well in his book "The God Part of the Brain".  At some point in its evolution mankind hit upon a existential crises when it realized that it would have to die at some point, so to compensate for that terrifying thought over time humans came up with and hotwired their brains to believe in the fantasy of the afterlife.

For my part, I do think that this awareness of death and compensation for it may have even come about prior to human awareness and that's why you see things in the animal kingdom like cats entering a purring stage prior to death

lol,...what a load of hooooorse shit. Was your brain hotwired as well? Pal you have a CHOICE, not some ancient defect or abnomality of the mind, to decide whether you're going cry out to a man in the sky. The Bible says choice life or death which are both set before you.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
ToraTiger said:
Well, there is a lot of things in this World that can't be explained. Like why do birds fly south for the winter? Why do these birds know to sit on their eggs? Why did man 'create' the very first religions? You see, we (Muslims) believe that God exists in all of us. (Even atheists) And that books like the Bible, Torah and others all contain some belief to God presences. In other words; Man has followed religion since the beginning of time, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, all believe in a greater power. Where Christianity is concern, the Bible has been altered so many ways and so many times that it has lost some of it's divinity. See, this is the cause to all the "Atheists" that have been brought up in recent years. Though it shames me to say it, even Islam has been altered to some extend in certain places. Like the misrepresentation of Jihad. And if someone was to sit down, lose every bit of knowledge of Religion that society has thought them (I believe the alternation of Bible is the key to why so many disbelieve in God) And I'd bet that child would grow up believing in God.

No one seems to care about the "likeliness" of things that are contained in these books and are only concerned with the contradiction that exist, and why wouldn't some exist? It was created in a time where the live style and definition was COMPLETELY different. Not to mention things that could be lost in translation. So to make my point, read a 'clean' Bible, Quran, Torah or anything else, and find "your" definition of it. As I've said before that's why the worlds in it's current Religious state, people feel like Religion is just like their native governments trying to control their life. So instead of living by what you're parents or whoever told you, or what society has fed you, just pick up a book and decide what it means for yourself. As I see a lot of Atheist don't seem to have any sort of knowledge beside the very basics of Christianity. (Christ is God, father, son, holy ghost, he died for our sins ect. )

That said I'm not a Christian.

Lastly, someone just answer me this, if God doesn't exist and we humans are the closest things to it there are, they how come since the beginning of time there have been many ancients praying and yielding to something that doesn't exist ?

I can gaurantee you most christian's and muslim's have not had a real good look through their holy book's because if they hd they woul have seen the long list of internal and external contradiction's with themselves and scientific fact's. You really think that if more people had a godlook at your holy book they would not find themselves embarrassed and disgusted by the god's proclaimed within?

Muslim's probably should have re-written the Quran given how many absurd thing's are kept within it that most people would see as a poorly written piece of fiction. A book that a ritten 1300 year's ago is not proof of the existence of god and most people no believe in it for three reason's

1: Their parent's where folower's of that religion 

2: Their afraid of death and can;t accept a world without god

3: Their culture is unaccepting of athiesm ranging from exclusion all the way to death for apostacy. 

Im guessing that you were simply brought up being taught islam and was imprinted upon you as a child when you were most vulnerable. If you were brought up christian you would be here ingoring the inconsistancy's of the bible and pointing out those of the Quran. 

Check out http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ for a list of contradiction's in the Quran with an open mind.


I am not the best person to respond to the claims of contradiction, but reading some of it (being open minded) tells me that this list is just baloney.

I can give you a couple of examples:

- item 109: Muslims can  adopt orphans ,However they can not change the child's last name to their name as Islam values the identity of the family. You are not the child's bio parents and will never be their parents.

-item 72 is really funny contradiction... so calling a prophet wife an old woman is a contradiction.....

 

As i said, i am not the best person to respond to each one of those items. Since we are trying to be open minded here, if some one tells you something, dont you want to make sure that what he is telling you is right or wrong?? thats the way i view those contradictions..... verify that those are true claims before you make a judgment.


Hmm not surprised you did not start off at the beginning of the list if you truly thought the list was a load of baloney but rather picked and chose which one's you thought made the least sense.

While item 72 is a bit of a strech (the point made on the site does mention that it may just be the wife is the old woman and believe's calling the wife of the supposed prophet that would be rude) but 109 ponit's out that the Quran acknoledges adoption then prohibit's itself.

The claim's about the Quran on that site use's the passages in the Quran to show how they contradict each other so to deny their evidence is to deny the Quran itself. I have seen the contradictions and almost all of them make sense to me and therefore the Quran must contain lie's and falsehood's that a god would not have put in there. If you cannot refute the contradiction's then you simply have to admit that part of the Quran is false and therefore either god screwed up or people made it up/ added their 2 cents.

And coming from someone who is not only a believer in god but a thiest i think that maybe you should take a good hard look at all the thing's that are wrong within your religion. You will find contradiction's within the Quran, between the Quran and history, contradiction's with proven scientific fact and a complete lack of evidence of any divine act of god. 

And just a a reminder as someone making an assertion that your god is true the burden of proof is on you and other religious people to prove the existence of god and a book written over a millenium ago with an absurd amount of contradiction's and a complete lack of physical evidence is not going to cut it. 

I understand that you've been brought up believing in islam and you like many other's have a strong belief and really want it to be true so will twist logic however you can to fit in with a religion that make's less and less sense every year as we learn more and more about the world around us and replace god as an explanation with scientific theory's.

 

I have not picked and select from the list, as I told you, i am not the most experienced person in Islam to respond to the contradiction claims listed on that web page. More examples:

 

- Item 4: i can challenge any one in this world that the Quran said that Muhammad has seen god. The part referenced here 53-1 doesn’t say in any kind of translation that Muhammad has seen god. Here is the a reference with translation to English:

 

http://quran.com/53

It says that Muhammad have seen signs of his lord, not the lord him self.

 

- Item 7: Although the point says that god said that angels cant cause people to die, there is no reference what so ever to this in the Quran like other references of contradiction listed on this website. However, all three references to angles causing people to die ( referenced by chapter in this point) are consistent and accurate.

 

-item 24: The first time when Mary was giving birth to Jesus, there was only one angel who talked to her. The other contradiction which the site claims about a group of angels is different since it was not at the time when she was giving birth to Jesus. There is no single reference in that chapter that indicate that those group of angels who asked Mary to pray to only one god happened when she was giving birth to Jesus.

 

As I said earlier, those are more examples about how baloney are those contradictions. When you need to learn something, learn it from the source and be open minded as you want others to be open minded.

 


You are simply interpreting thing's in a manner to support your claim's rather than looking at thing's from un unbiased perspective.

At this point I'm simply inclined to say that it does not matter what evidence is put forward you will simply twist and turn and interpret things to your liking. 

There was a point when I  really wanted to believe in god and would cling to any explanation for the bible no matter how absurd it may seem to me now that I look at it just like the Quran as a fairy tale. 

Also the Quran's acknoledgement of other religion's being judaism and christianity mean's it has taken large part's of their baguage as well.

And just whilewere at it some of your explanation's for the contradiction's such as it being sign's of god he saw are false. He did see god as claimed in the Quran and therefore the Quran has contradicted itself. As well as the fact that the timing of when the Quran was established and how accurately it represents of muhammad said are widely disputed among historic scholars as well as dissenters not getting a fair say back then when islam was taking off thus we are presented with a biased view of history.

Just look at the state of Islamic lead nation's today and tell me it does not resemble christianity 700 years ago. If allah really did set islam in motion and not people's delusion's/lie's then he is truly an evil god for the pain he has caused through his ambiguity and lackluster attempt to spread his truth.

I rest my case, even when i provided your for the source from the quran, you still insist that Muhammed has seen god. I dont see us going any where with this discussion. did you even open the link I sent you to check whats written there?

The prblem is that you are interpreting the Quran in a way that i think is biased and not reasonable.

As a sidenote do you believe in evolution and the the world is over a billion years old?

I am not interpeting anything, the interpetation is there in the website i gave you. i am not being biased on none reaonable, I just communicated to you whats written in Quran.

 

I dont believe in evolution, it is a humiliation to human to think that human has evolved from apes. I dont know if the world is over a billion years old nor does any one who lives on thos planet.I dont even belive in the big bang theory, because things dont happen or get created on its own (i.e. our world).

 

This is what the quran tells us:

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"

 

 



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SlayerRondo said:
ToraTiger said:
Well, there is a lot of things in this World that can't be explained. Like why do birds fly south for the winter? Why do these birds know to sit on their eggs? Why did man 'create' the very first religions? You see, we (Muslims) believe that God exists in all of us. (Even atheists) And that books like the Bible, Torah and others all contain some belief to God presences. In other words; Man has followed religion since the beginning of time, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, all believe in a greater power. Where Christianity is concern, the Bible has been altered so many ways and so many times that it has lost some of it's divinity. See, this is the cause to all the "Atheists" that have been brought up in recent years. Though it shames me to say it, even Islam has been altered to some extend in certain places. Like the misrepresentation of Jihad. And if someone was to sit down, lose every bit of knowledge of Religion that society has thought them (I believe the alternation of Bible is the key to why so many disbelieve in God) And I'd bet that child would grow up believing in God.

No one seems to care about the "likeliness" of things that are contained in these books and are only concerned with the contradiction that exist, and why wouldn't some exist? It was created in a time where the live style and definition was COMPLETELY different. Not to mention things that could be lost in translation. So to make my point, read a 'clean' Bible, Quran, Torah or anything else, and find "your" definition of it. As I've said before that's why the worlds in it's current Religious state, people feel like Religion is just like their native governments trying to control their life. So instead of living by what you're parents or whoever told you, or what society has fed you, just pick up a book and decide what it means for yourself. As I see a lot of Atheist don't seem to have any sort of knowledge beside the very basics of Christianity. (Christ is God, father, son, holy ghost, he died for our sins ect. )

That said I'm not a Christian.

Lastly, someone just answer me this, if God doesn't exist and we humans are the closest things to it there are, they how come since the beginning of time there have been many ancients praying and yielding to something that doesn't exist ?

I can gaurantee you most christian's and muslim's have not had a real good look through their holy book's because if they hd they woul have seen the long list of internal and external contradiction's with themselves and scientific fact's. You really think that if more people had a godlook at your holy book they would not find themselves embarrassed and disgusted by the god's proclaimed within?

Muslim's probably should have re-written the Quran given how many absurd thing's are kept within it that most people would see as a poorly written piece of fiction. A book that a ritten 1300 year's ago is not proof of the existence of god and most people no believe in it for three reason's

1: Their parent's where folower's of that religion 

2: Their afraid of death and can;t accept a world without god

3: Their culture is unaccepting of athiesm ranging from exclusion all the way to death for apostacy. 

Im guessing that you were simply brought up being taught islam and was imprinted upon you as a child when you were most vulnerable. If you were brought up christian you would be here ingoring the inconsistancy's of the bible and pointing out those of the Quran. 

Check out http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ for a list of contradiction's in the Quran with an open mind.

What contradictions are in the Bible?



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

DaRev said:
SlayerRondo said:
ToraTiger said:
Well, there is a lot of things in this World that can't be explained. Like why do birds fly south for the winter? Why do these birds know to sit on their eggs? Why did man 'create' the very first religions? You see, we (Muslims) believe that God exists in all of us. (Even atheists) And that books like the Bible, Torah and others all contain some belief to God presences. In other words; Man has followed religion since the beginning of time, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, all believe in a greater power. Where Christianity is concern, the Bible has been altered so many ways and so many times that it has lost some of it's divinity. See, this is the cause to all the "Atheists" that have been brought up in recent years. Though it shames me to say it, even Islam has been altered to some extend in certain places. Like the misrepresentation of Jihad. And if someone was to sit down, lose every bit of knowledge of Religion that society has thought them (I believe the alternation of Bible is the key to why so many disbelieve in God) And I'd bet that child would grow up believing in God.

No one seems to care about the "likeliness" of things that are contained in these books and are only concerned with the contradiction that exist, and why wouldn't some exist? It was created in a time where the live style and definition was COMPLETELY different. Not to mention things that could be lost in translation. So to make my point, read a 'clean' Bible, Quran, Torah or anything else, and find "your" definition of it. As I've said before that's why the worlds in it's current Religious state, people feel like Religion is just like their native governments trying to control their life. So instead of living by what you're parents or whoever told you, or what society has fed you, just pick up a book and decide what it means for yourself. As I see a lot of Atheist don't seem to have any sort of knowledge beside the very basics of Christianity. (Christ is God, father, son, holy ghost, he died for our sins ect. )

That said I'm not a Christian.

Lastly, someone just answer me this, if God doesn't exist and we humans are the closest things to it there are, they how come since the beginning of time there have been many ancients praying and yielding to something that doesn't exist ?

I can gaurantee you most christian's and muslim's have not had a real good look through their holy book's because if they hd they woul have seen the long list of internal and external contradiction's with themselves and scientific fact's. You really think that if more people had a godlook at your holy book they would not find themselves embarrassed and disgusted by the god's proclaimed within?

Muslim's probably should have re-written the Quran given how many absurd thing's are kept within it that most people would see as a poorly written piece of fiction. A book that a ritten 1300 year's ago is not proof of the existence of god and most people no believe in it for three reason's

1: Their parent's where folower's of that religion 

2: Their afraid of death and can;t accept a world without god

3: Their culture is unaccepting of athiesm ranging from exclusion all the way to death for apostacy. 

Im guessing that you were simply brought up being taught islam and was imprinted upon you as a child when you were most vulnerable. If you were brought up christian you would be here ingoring the inconsistancy's of the bible and pointing out those of the Quran. 

Check out http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ for a list of contradiction's in the Quran with an open mind.

What contradictions are in the Bible?


Go online and reaserch it for yourself. Answer's found youself are more valuable than those you are directed to.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

DaRev said:

What contradictions are in the Bible?

If you're serious, do a google search. Two outcomes from this:

1) You begin to question your faith.

2) You use ambiguity/non-literal as a defense.

I'm guessing 2).



Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
ToraTiger said:
Well, there is a lot of things in this World that can't be explained. Like why do birds fly south for the winter? Why do these birds know to sit on their eggs? Why did man 'create' the very first religions? You see, we (Muslims) believe that God exists in all of us. (Even atheists) And that books like the Bible, Torah and others all contain some belief to God presences. In other words; Man has followed religion since the beginning of time, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, all believe in a greater power. Where Christianity is concern, the Bible has been altered so many ways and so many times that it has lost some of it's divinity. See, this is the cause to all the "Atheists" that have been brought up in recent years. Though it shames me to say it, even Islam has been altered to some extend in certain places. Like the misrepresentation of Jihad. And if someone was to sit down, lose every bit of knowledge of Religion that society has thought them (I believe the alternation of Bible is the key to why so many disbelieve in God) And I'd bet that child would grow up believing in God.

No one seems to care about the "likeliness" of things that are contained in these books and are only concerned with the contradiction that exist, and why wouldn't some exist? It was created in a time where the live style and definition was COMPLETELY different. Not to mention things that could be lost in translation. So to make my point, read a 'clean' Bible, Quran, Torah or anything else, and find "your" definition of it. As I've said before that's why the worlds in it's current Religious state, people feel like Religion is just like their native governments trying to control their life. So instead of living by what you're parents or whoever told you, or what society has fed you, just pick up a book and decide what it means for yourself. As I see a lot of Atheist don't seem to have any sort of knowledge beside the very basics of Christianity. (Christ is God, father, son, holy ghost, he died for our sins ect. )

That said I'm not a Christian.

Lastly, someone just answer me this, if God doesn't exist and we humans are the closest things to it there are, they how come since the beginning of time there have been many ancients praying and yielding to something that doesn't exist ?

I can gaurantee you most christian's and muslim's have not had a real good look through their holy book's because if they hd they woul have seen the long list of internal and external contradiction's with themselves and scientific fact's. You really think that if more people had a godlook at your holy book they would not find themselves embarrassed and disgusted by the god's proclaimed within?

Muslim's probably should have re-written the Quran given how many absurd thing's are kept within it that most people would see as a poorly written piece of fiction. A book that a ritten 1300 year's ago is not proof of the existence of god and most people no believe in it for three reason's

1: Their parent's where folower's of that religion 

2: Their afraid of death and can;t accept a world without god

3: Their culture is unaccepting of athiesm ranging from exclusion all the way to death for apostacy. 

Im guessing that you were simply brought up being taught islam and was imprinted upon you as a child when you were most vulnerable. If you were brought up christian you would be here ingoring the inconsistancy's of the bible and pointing out those of the Quran. 

Check out http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ for a list of contradiction's in the Quran with an open mind.


I am not the best person to respond to the claims of contradiction, but reading some of it (being open minded) tells me that this list is just baloney.

I can give you a couple of examples:

- item 109: Muslims can  adopt orphans ,However they can not change the child's last name to their name as Islam values the identity of the family. You are not the child's bio parents and will never be their parents.

-item 72 is really funny contradiction... so calling a prophet wife an old woman is a contradiction.....

 

As i said, i am not the best person to respond to each one of those items. Since we are trying to be open minded here, if some one tells you something, dont you want to make sure that what he is telling you is right or wrong?? thats the way i view those contradictions..... verify that those are true claims before you make a judgment.


Hmm not surprised you did not start off at the beginning of the list if you truly thought the list was a load of baloney but rather picked and chose which one's you thought made the least sense.

While item 72 is a bit of a strech (the point made on the site does mention that it may just be the wife is the old woman and believe's calling the wife of the supposed prophet that would be rude) but 109 ponit's out that the Quran acknoledges adoption then prohibit's itself.

The claim's about the Quran on that site use's the passages in the Quran to show how they contradict each other so to deny their evidence is to deny the Quran itself. I have seen the contradictions and almost all of them make sense to me and therefore the Quran must contain lie's and falsehood's that a god would not have put in there. If you cannot refute the contradiction's then you simply have to admit that part of the Quran is false and therefore either god screwed up or people made it up/ added their 2 cents.

And coming from someone who is not only a believer in god but a thiest i think that maybe you should take a good hard look at all the thing's that are wrong within your religion. You will find contradiction's within the Quran, between the Quran and history, contradiction's with proven scientific fact and a complete lack of evidence of any divine act of god. 

And just a a reminder as someone making an assertion that your god is true the burden of proof is on you and other religious people to prove the existence of god and a book written over a millenium ago with an absurd amount of contradiction's and a complete lack of physical evidence is not going to cut it. 

I understand that you've been brought up believing in islam and you like many other's have a strong belief and really want it to be true so will twist logic however you can to fit in with a religion that make's less and less sense every year as we learn more and more about the world around us and replace god as an explanation with scientific theory's.

 

I have not picked and select from the list, as I told you, i am not the most experienced person in Islam to respond to the contradiction claims listed on that web page. More examples:

 

- Item 4: i can challenge any one in this world that the Quran said that Muhammad has seen god. The part referenced here 53-1 doesn’t say in any kind of translation that Muhammad has seen god. Here is the a reference with translation to English:

 

http://quran.com/53

It says that Muhammad have seen signs of his lord, not the lord him self.

 

- Item 7: Although the point says that god said that angels cant cause people to die, there is no reference what so ever to this in the Quran like other references of contradiction listed on this website. However, all three references to angles causing people to die ( referenced by chapter in this point) are consistent and accurate.

 

-item 24: The first time when Mary was giving birth to Jesus, there was only one angel who talked to her. The other contradiction which the site claims about a group of angels is different since it was not at the time when she was giving birth to Jesus. There is no single reference in that chapter that indicate that those group of angels who asked Mary to pray to only one god happened when she was giving birth to Jesus.

 

As I said earlier, those are more examples about how baloney are those contradictions. When you need to learn something, learn it from the source and be open minded as you want others to be open minded.

 


You are simply interpreting thing's in a manner to support your claim's rather than looking at thing's from un unbiased perspective.

At this point I'm simply inclined to say that it does not matter what evidence is put forward you will simply twist and turn and interpret things to your liking. 

There was a point when I  really wanted to believe in god and would cling to any explanation for the bible no matter how absurd it may seem to me now that I look at it just like the Quran as a fairy tale. 

Also the Quran's acknoledgement of other religion's being judaism and christianity mean's it has taken large part's of their baguage as well.

And just whilewere at it some of your explanation's for the contradiction's such as it being sign's of god he saw are false. He did see god as claimed in the Quran and therefore the Quran has contradicted itself. As well as the fact that the timing of when the Quran was established and how accurately it represents of muhammad said are widely disputed among historic scholars as well as dissenters not getting a fair say back then when islam was taking off thus we are presented with a biased view of history.

Just look at the state of Islamic lead nation's today and tell me it does not resemble christianity 700 years ago. If allah really did set islam in motion and not people's delusion's/lie's then he is truly an evil god for the pain he has caused through his ambiguity and lackluster attempt to spread his truth.

I rest my case, even when i provided your for the source from the quran, you still insist that Muhammed has seen god. I dont see us going any where with this discussion. did you even open the link I sent you to check whats written there?

The prblem is that you are interpreting the Quran in a way that i think is biased and not reasonable.

As a sidenote do you believe in evolution and the the world is over a billion years old?

I am not interpeting anything, the interpetation is there in the website i gave you. i am not being biased on none reaonable, I just communicated to you whats written in Quran.

 

I dont believe in evolution, it is a humiliation to human to think that human has evolved from apes. I dont know if the world is over a billion years old nor does any one who lives on thos planet.I dont even belive in the big bang theory, because things dont happen or get created on its own (i.e. our world).

 

This is what the quran tells us:

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"

 

 

 

Thank you for answering those question's honestly.

I;m sorry if i was a bit to confrontational during our discussion and you are far more reasonable than most thiest i talk to about religion who just tell me to have faith.

But your disbelief in these fact's lead me to believe that there is no longer any point in our discussion.

Goodbye



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

ToraTiger said:
You've anwsered the first two questions to an extent.  But let me first say, why didn't man just think of it as athesist do; the World existed by chance, and we are a product of it.  How come it's this newly found "science" that makes us doubt God?

I would like to note that, despite being an atheist, I did not actually argue against religion. Just thought I should say that before anything else.

Anyway, as I said, it was an evolution of thought. Humanity has a tendency to see patterns where there are none (see: pareidolia). Humans also have a strong tendency to personify and humanise things - a captain (in most western countries) refers to a ship as "she", every single god of the Greek religion was human in shape, at least some of the time, etc. And humans also tend not to like not understanding things, and thus seek to find explanations, no matter how unreasonable those explanations might be.

Early humans asked "why does the sun move across the sky?" Not having any means of finding an explanation in the way that we do now, they sought out an explanation by comparing the movement to things that they understood - human movement. The slight wandering path (tendency to rise and set in different places over time) suggested to early humans it was being moved with intent, rather than on its own. And so, needing an explanation that they could comprehend, they came up with the idea that it was either a being itself, or that it was being moved by a being - and thus, the sun deity came to exist. It exists in egyptian, greek, and roman mythology. It exists in most other pagan mythologies. And almost every local mythology in the various other nations also had some variation of the sun god. Some, like in Egyptian mythology, had the sun being pulled through the sky. Others, such as, I think, the Greek, had the sun being the god itself.

Early humans asked "why do plants grow some of the time, but wilt at other times? Why is there a good time to plant, and a time when planting is useless?" The result, in the exact same process, is the "fertility god". They see patterns, such as someone doing something, and then the following planting season being particularly fruitful, and conclude that something actually likes what that person had done. They seek an explanation, and come up with one that they can comprehend given their current level of knowledge of the universe - and that produces the "fertility god". And again, fertility gods appear in most religions, with the obvious exceptions of the monotheistic ones that are relatively new (as far as historical records are concerned).

The exact same process applies to most other instances, too. The rain dance that exists in some cultures arose because, at some point in time, someone did a certain dance, and soon after, it rained. Seeing a pattern where there was none, they concluded that the dance caused the rain. But of course, for the dance to cause the rain, there has to be some reason for it to happen. Not having a better explanation, they conclude that it was a god that caused the rain, and that therefore the dance pleased that god. Of course, once you have that explanation, it becomes easy to sustain it - the reason why the dance didn't work on a particular day was that the god was displeased over something else done, or because the dance was not good enough to satisfy the god.

Monotheistic religions are relatively new in this regard. Judaism, historically, appears in a time when greek intellectuals were making great strides - Pythagoras, Diophantus, Ptolemy, Hippocrates, Euclid... you get the idea. The greeks had come up with ideas such as the atom (which is so-named because it "cannot be cut" - "a-" meaning "not" and "tom" referring to cut, as in appendectomy), natural cause and effect, and the stars as something outside of the world. They understood that the sun was some object about which the earth rotated (it was only certain parts of the christian church that believed that the earth was the centre of the world, in the time of Galileo, etc). They understood what the planets were (so-named because they wander through the sky) - Aristotle correctly determined that Mars was further from the Earth than the Moon was. There was no need for a god to explain why the sun moved across the sky. They understood the seasons. They understood evaporation and condensation, and thus rain.

And so, they had no need for a god for each unexplained phenomenon - most of them had at least partial explanations. But it didn't resolve the biggest question of them all - "why are we here? How did we come to exist?" That's where the monotheistic religions come into it.

If one looks closely at the laws found within the monotheistic religions, one can identify certain patterns. When they call something "unclean", it almost always was something that was easily associated with disease. The flesh of a pig is unclean, and touching even the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean, too. What this actually means is that pig carcasses had a strong tendency to cause illness, compared with other meats. This issue is, of course, no longer applicable - pig meat is able to be kept as sanitary as any other meat, and there are ways to ensure that bacteria do not make it into the human body due to eating pig. There are many more examples much like that one.

Many people will say "atheism is the default position - a children has to be brought up with a religion, otherwise they'll be an atheist". It's slightly inaccurate, but the basic idea is right. Atheism is the starting position. Children, as they grow up, start asking "Why?" to everything. If left to their own devices, they will invent all sorts of tales of their own to explain it. If you tell them an explanation, they will often believe it... and then ask "Why?" to your explanation. Religion fills some of those questions with answers... but that doesn't make them correct.

Where science comes into it is that it introduces a relatively modern term, "Occam's Razor", also known as lex parsimoniae. An accurate interpretation of it is that it is the principle that the explanation that requires the fewest additional assumptions while explaining all observations is generally the best explanation, until evidence can be found that contradicts it. For instance, one could argue that an apple falls from a tree because some god pulled it down. Alternatively, there's gravity. The assumption of a god making the apple fall requires an assumption of an act for each individual instance of something falling. Gravity is a single, unifying assumption.

Of course, some would go "but God is a single assumption that explains everything"... but the thing is, it doesn't explain god itself. What is god? Why does god do what god does? Where did god come from? More recently, there's questions like "why did god create such an expansive universe, only to populate one tiny planet with humans?" This is where science is gaining ground relative to religion - note that it doesn't invalidate religion, it just challenges its "necessity" for explaining things.

It's also worth noting that neither science nor atheism is a modern thing. It's well-documented in history, too.

Also note that atheism doesn't actually address any questions itself. It doesn't try to explain where the universe came from. For that, you need to look at specific theories. Personally, I'm someone who doesn't understand the need for a "start". Why must the universe have an age at all? Why can't it always have existed? And for anybody out there who is religious and mocks my idea, I'll pose this one for you: why can god have always existed, but not the universe?

For the scientific minds, I've a different point to make, though. Many will go "but the big bang!" or "but entropy!" The law of entropy that states that entropy cannot decrease in a closed system. An infinite universe is, by definition, an open system. Furthermore, it doesn't say it has to increase - there can be local increases and decreases resulting in a net constant entropy, without violating the law. As for the big bang, there are two observations that lead to the idea - motion of the visible universe, and background radiation. The thing is, if light has a half-life (as all other particles do), then it would decay in a manner that would produce the background radiation. Meanwhile, the "expansion of the universe" causes a lot of problems, because the apparent age of the universe by expansion doesn't agree with the apparent age of the universe by background radiation, hence the theory of the accelerating universe.

The decay of light particles, however, also explains the apparent motion. The motion is measured through "redshift". But decay of light particles would be expected to result in exactly the same sort of redshift, proportional to the distance travelled. As a result, objects further from the earth would appear to be moving away faster, when they're just decaying more due to a longer time spent in transit. The other argument against the infinite universe, by the way, is gravity, and that's an example of people not understanding gravity - gravitational potential would be infinite, but gravitational force would not - the gravity due to distant objects would effectively cancel, resulting in the observed local gravitational effects.

 

Anyway, I realise I've kind of wandered off point now. Probably a good time to end this post.