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Forums - General - If God doesnt exist then who wrote the bible ?

DaRev on 11 February 2013
Chrizum said:
DaRev said:
baph7667 said:
DaRev said:
spaceguy said:
DaRev said:
I honestly don't understand how intelligent people don't believe 'God wrote the Bible'. Like there's some dude or group of dudes out somewhere just thinking up crazy stuff trying to control people, but not ever revealing their identity or group or ever taking the credit, but letting other people like the Church get all the credit o_O

If I wrote the Bible you sure as hell bet I would want the credit and all the royalties! It just doesn't make any sense, to believe that some man or group wrote the bible.



Are you kidding?

 

Why would I be?


Because every claim that's been put forth for the Bible's acuracy has been proven to be incorrect since Gallileo demonstrated that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

one day we will all find out whether the bible is true or not.

We already did.

Yeah, what day was that for you?



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

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Frank_kc on 11 February 2013
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
Frank_kc said:
SlayerRondo said:
ToraTiger said:
Well, there is a lot of things in this World that can't be explained. Like why do birds fly south for the winter? Why do these birds know to sit on their eggs? Why did man 'create' the very first religions? You see, we (Muslims) believe that God exists in all of us. (Even atheists) And that books like the Bible, Torah and others all contain some belief to God presences. In other words; Man has followed religion since the beginning of time, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, all believe in a greater power. Where Christianity is concern, the Bible has been altered so many ways and so many times that it has lost some of it's divinity. See, this is the cause to all the "Atheists" that have been brought up in recent years. Though it shames me to say it, even Islam has been altered to some extend in certain places. Like the misrepresentation of Jihad. And if someone was to sit down, lose every bit of knowledge of Religion that society has thought them (I believe the alternation of Bible is the key to why so many disbelieve in God) And I'd bet that child would grow up believing in God.

No one seems to care about the "likeliness" of things that are contained in these books and are only concerned with the contradiction that exist, and why wouldn't some exist? It was created in a time where the live style and definition was COMPLETELY different. Not to mention things that could be lost in translation. So to make my point, read a 'clean' Bible, Quran, Torah or anything else, and find "your" definition of it. As I've said before that's why the worlds in it's current Religious state, people feel like Religion is just like their native governments trying to control their life. So instead of living by what you're parents or whoever told you, or what society has fed you, just pick up a book and decide what it means for yourself. As I see a lot of Atheist don't seem to have any sort of knowledge beside the very basics of Christianity. (Christ is God, father, son, holy ghost, he died for our sins ect. )

That said I'm not a Christian.

Lastly, someone just answer me this, if God doesn't exist and we humans are the closest things to it there are, they how come since the beginning of time there have been many ancients praying and yielding to something that doesn't exist ?

I can gaurantee you most christian's and muslim's have not had a real good look through their holy book's because if they hd they woul have seen the long list of internal and external contradiction's with themselves and scientific fact's. You really think that if more people had a godlook at your holy book they would not find themselves embarrassed and disgusted by the god's proclaimed within?

Muslim's probably should have re-written the Quran given how many absurd thing's are kept within it that most people would see as a poorly written piece of fiction. A book that a ritten 1300 year's ago is not proof of the existence of god and most people no believe in it for three reason's

1: Their parent's where folower's of that religion 

2: Their afraid of death and can;t accept a world without god

3: Their culture is unaccepting of athiesm ranging from exclusion all the way to death for apostacy. 

Im guessing that you were simply brought up being taught islam and was imprinted upon you as a child when you were most vulnerable. If you were brought up christian you would be here ingoring the inconsistancy's of the bible and pointing out those of the Quran. 

Check out http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ for a list of contradiction's in the Quran with an open mind.


I am not the best person to respond to the claims of contradiction, but reading some of it (being open minded) tells me that this list is just baloney.

I can give you a couple of examples:

- item 109: Muslims can  adopt orphans ,However they can not change the child's last name to their name as Islam values the identity of the family. You are not the child's bio parents and will never be their parents.

-item 72 is really funny contradiction... so calling a prophet wife an old woman is a contradiction.....

 

As i said, i am not the best person to respond to each one of those items. Since we are trying to be open minded here, if some one tells you something, dont you want to make sure that what he is telling you is right or wrong?? thats the way i view those contradictions..... verify that those are true claims before you make a judgment.


Hmm not surprised you did not start off at the beginning of the list if you truly thought the list was a load of baloney but rather picked and chose which one's you thought made the least sense.

While item 72 is a bit of a strech (the point made on the site does mention that it may just be the wife is the old woman and believe's calling the wife of the supposed prophet that would be rude) but 109 ponit's out that the Quran acknoledges adoption then prohibit's itself.

The claim's about the Quran on that site use's the passages in the Quran to show how they contradict each other so to deny their evidence is to deny the Quran itself. I have seen the contradictions and almost all of them make sense to me and therefore the Quran must contain lie's and falsehood's that a god would not have put in there. If you cannot refute the contradiction's then you simply have to admit that part of the Quran is false and therefore either god screwed up or people made it up/ added their 2 cents.

And coming from someone who is not only a believer in god but a thiest i think that maybe you should take a good hard look at all the thing's that are wrong within your religion. You will find contradiction's within the Quran, between the Quran and history, contradiction's with proven scientific fact and a complete lack of evidence of any divine act of god. 

And just a a reminder as someone making an assertion that your god is true the burden of proof is on you and other religious people to prove the existence of god and a book written over a millenium ago with an absurd amount of contradiction's and a complete lack of physical evidence is not going to cut it. 

I understand that you've been brought up believing in islam and you like many other's have a strong belief and really want it to be true so will twist logic however you can to fit in with a religion that make's less and less sense every year as we learn more and more about the world around us and replace god as an explanation with scientific theory's.

 

I have not picked and select from the list, as I told you, i am not the most experienced person in Islam to respond to the contradiction claims listed on that web page. More examples:

 

- Item 4: i can challenge any one in this world that the Quran said that Muhammad has seen god. The part referenced here 53-1 doesn’t say in any kind of translation that Muhammad has seen god. Here is the a reference with translation to English:

 

http://quran.com/53

It says that Muhammad have seen signs of his lord, not the lord him self.

 

- Item 7: Although the point says that god said that angels cant cause people to die, there is no reference what so ever to this in the Quran like other references of contradiction listed on this website. However, all three references to angles causing people to die ( referenced by chapter in this point) are consistent and accurate.

 

-item 24: The first time when Mary was giving birth to Jesus, there was only one angel who talked to her. The other contradiction which the site claims about a group of angels is different since it was not at the time when she was giving birth to Jesus. There is no single reference in that chapter that indicate that those group of angels who asked Mary to pray to only one god happened when she was giving birth to Jesus.

 

As I said earlier, those are more examples about how baloney are those contradictions. When you need to learn something, learn it from the source and be open minded as you want others to be open minded.

 


You are simply interpreting thing's in a manner to support your claim's rather than looking at thing's from un unbiased perspective.

At this point I'm simply inclined to say that it does not matter what evidence is put forward you will simply twist and turn and interpret things to your liking. 

There was a point when I  really wanted to believe in god and would cling to any explanation for the bible no matter how absurd it may seem to me now that I look at it just like the Quran as a fairy tale. 

Also the Quran's acknoledgement of other religion's being judaism and christianity mean's it has taken large part's of their baguage as well.

And just whilewere at it some of your explanation's for the contradiction's such as it being sign's of god he saw are false. He did see god as claimed in the Quran and therefore the Quran has contradicted itself. As well as the fact that the timing of when the Quran was established and how accurately it represents of muhammad said are widely disputed among historic scholars as well as dissenters not getting a fair say back then when islam was taking off thus we are presented with a biased view of history.

Just look at the state of Islamic lead nation's today and tell me it does not resemble christianity 700 years ago. If allah really did set islam in motion and not people's delusion's/lie's then he is truly an evil god for the pain he has caused through his ambiguity and lackluster attempt to spread his truth.

I rest my case, even when i provided your for the source from the quran, you still insist that Muhammed has seen god. I dont see us going any where with this discussion. did you even open the link I sent you to check whats written there?

The prblem is that you are interpreting the Quran in a way that i think is biased and not reasonable.

As a sidenote do you believe in evolution and the the world is over a billion years old?

I am not interpeting anything, the interpetation is there in the website i gave you. i am not being biased on none reaonable, I just communicated to you whats written in Quran.

 

I dont believe in evolution, it is a humiliation to human to think that human has evolved from apes. I dont know if the world is over a billion years old nor does any one who lives on thos planet.I dont even belive in the big bang theory, because things dont happen or get created on its own (i.e. our world).

 

This is what the quran tells us:

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"

 

 

 

Thank you for answering those question's honestly.

I;m sorry if i was a bit to confrontational during our discussion and you are far more reasonable than most thiest i talk to about religion who just tell me to have faith.

But your disbelief in these fact's lead me to believe that there is no longer any point in our discussion.

Goodbye


Thank You Slayer. It was a good disucssion where each relfected his own beliefs.

 



DaRev on 11 February 2013
SlayerRondo said:
DaRev said:
Jay520 said:
DaRev said:
I honestly don't understand how intelligent people don't believe 'God wrote the Bible'. Like there's some dude or group of dudes out somewhere just thinking up crazy stuff trying to control people, but not ever revealing their identity or group or ever taking the credit, but letting other people like the Church get all the credit o_O

If I wrote the Bible you sure as hell bet I would want the credit and all the royalties! It just doesn't make any sense, to believe that some man or group wrote the bible.


Well considering the fact that there's plenty of different bibles from contradicting religions, it is obvious that most of those bibles are false, and were written by people, not the supposed God of their religion. That is proof of Bibles being written by man (unless you believe all bibles from all religions are somehow true). As for why anyone would "waste their time" writing a Bible....well, it's quite easy to see the value of large populations of people willingly placing absolute faith and obedience into a specific system of behaviors and attitudes.

There is only one Bible, i.e. the Christian one.

People, place their faith in the Bible because they hear it, i.e. the words therein, and it connects with their common sense and to a greater extent with the spiritual part of them, so they don't follow it blind because everyone else is doing it. In any event who do you suppose is benefiting from this "value" you're talking about?


That is the same answer people from other religion's give. People claim faith because they don't have any good answer's.

True, that's because it all comes from the same source, i.e. God. It might have been messed with over the years, but its still the originally the word of God that gives people faith, not the writings of some man or group thereof.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

DaRev on 11 February 2013
SlayerRondo said:
DaRev said:
SlayerRondo said:
ToraTiger said:
Well, there is a lot of things in this World that can't be explained. Like why do birds fly south for the winter? Why do these birds know to sit on their eggs? Why did man 'create' the very first religions? You see, we (Muslims) believe that God exists in all of us. (Even atheists) And that books like the Bible, Torah and others all contain some belief to God presences. In other words; Man has followed religion since the beginning of time, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, all believe in a greater power. Where Christianity is concern, the Bible has been altered so many ways and so many times that it has lost some of it's divinity. See, this is the cause to all the "Atheists" that have been brought up in recent years. Though it shames me to say it, even Islam has been altered to some extend in certain places. Like the misrepresentation of Jihad. And if someone was to sit down, lose every bit of knowledge of Religion that society has thought them (I believe the alternation of Bible is the key to why so many disbelieve in God) And I'd bet that child would grow up believing in God.

No one seems to care about the "likeliness" of things that are contained in these books and are only concerned with the contradiction that exist, and why wouldn't some exist? It was created in a time where the live style and definition was COMPLETELY different. Not to mention things that could be lost in translation. So to make my point, read a 'clean' Bible, Quran, Torah or anything else, and find "your" definition of it. As I've said before that's why the worlds in it's current Religious state, people feel like Religion is just like their native governments trying to control their life. So instead of living by what you're parents or whoever told you, or what society has fed you, just pick up a book and decide what it means for yourself. As I see a lot of Atheist don't seem to have any sort of knowledge beside the very basics of Christianity. (Christ is God, father, son, holy ghost, he died for our sins ect. )

That said I'm not a Christian.

Lastly, someone just answer me this, if God doesn't exist and we humans are the closest things to it there are, they how come since the beginning of time there have been many ancients praying and yielding to something that doesn't exist ?

I can gaurantee you most christian's and muslim's have not had a real good look through their holy book's because if they hd they woul have seen the long list of internal and external contradiction's with themselves and scientific fact's. You really think that if more people had a godlook at your holy book they would not find themselves embarrassed and disgusted by the god's proclaimed within?

Muslim's probably should have re-written the Quran given how many absurd thing's are kept within it that most people would see as a poorly written piece of fiction. A book that a ritten 1300 year's ago is not proof of the existence of god and most people no believe in it for three reason's

1: Their parent's where folower's of that religion 

2: Their afraid of death and can;t accept a world without god

3: Their culture is unaccepting of athiesm ranging from exclusion all the way to death for apostacy. 

Im guessing that you were simply brought up being taught islam and was imprinted upon you as a child when you were most vulnerable. If you were brought up christian you would be here ingoring the inconsistancy's of the bible and pointing out those of the Quran. 

Check out http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ for a list of contradiction's in the Quran with an open mind.

What contradictions are in the Bible?


Go online and reaserch it for yourself. Answer's found youself are more valuable than those you are directed to.

ha ha, whatever man. I got better things to do.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

DaRev on 11 February 2013
dsgrue3 said:
DaRev said:

What contradictions are in the Bible?

If you're serious, do a google search. Two outcomes from this:

1) You begin to question your faith.

2) You use ambiguity/non-literal as a defense.

I'm guessing 2).

right back at you.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

Around the Network
Chrizum on 11 February 2013
DaRev said:
Chrizum said:
DaRev said:
baph7667 said:
DaRev said:
spaceguy said:
DaRev said:
I honestly don't understand how intelligent people don't believe 'God wrote the Bible'. Like there's some dude or group of dudes out somewhere just thinking up crazy stuff trying to control people, but not ever revealing their identity or group or ever taking the credit, but letting other people like the Church get all the credit o_O

If I wrote the Bible you sure as hell bet I would want the credit and all the royalties! It just doesn't make any sense, to believe that some man or group wrote the bible.



Are you kidding?

 

Why would I be?


Because every claim that's been put forth for the Bible's acuracy has been proven to be incorrect since Gallileo demonstrated that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

one day we will all find out whether the bible is true or not.

We already did.

Yeah, what day was that for you?

The day I learned to think logically.



Aielyn on 11 February 2013
DaRev said:
What contradictions are in the Bible?

On what day was light created? Now, on what day did god create sources of light?

Which was created first? Man, or animals? (look at Genesis 1 and 2)

Where in the bible is Jesus called "Emmanuel", as it was prophesised?

What were Jesus's last words on the cross before death?

Who carried Jesus's cross before he was crucified?

Where did Josiah die?

Why did god refer to Abraham's "only son Isaac", after Ishmael had already been born?

Just a few examples to think about.



dsgrue3 on 11 February 2013
DaRev said:
dsgrue3 said:
DaRev said:

What contradictions are in the Bible?

If you're serious, do a google search. Two outcomes from this:

1) You begin to question your faith.

2) You use ambiguity/non-literal as a defense.

I'm guessing 2).

right back at you.

Huh? I didn't ask for contradictions - there are none in my book (I don't have one).

Here you go, start reading:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html



baph7667 on 11 February 2013
DaRev said:
baph7667 said:
DaRev said:
spaceguy said:
DaRev said:
I honestly don't understand how intelligent people don't believe 'God wrote the Bible'. Like there's some dude or group of dudes out somewhere just thinking up crazy stuff trying to control people, but not ever revealing their identity or group or ever taking the credit, but letting other people like the Church get all the credit o_O

If I wrote the Bible you sure as hell bet I would want the credit and all the royalties! It just doesn't make any sense, to believe that some man or group wrote the bible.



Are you kidding?

 

Why would I be?


Because every claim that's been put forth for the Bible's acuracy has been proven to be incorrect since Gallileo demonstrated that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

What claims are you talking about that have ben proven incorrect? In any event, it's your CHOICE to accept what is written in the bible, you make yours and I make, so live long and prosper my friend, one day we will all find out whether the bible is true or not.

Basically every one of then from who wrote the Bible and Why (disproven by Source Criticism, Archaeology, and the Documentary Hypothesis), the Age of the Earth ( disproven by Geology, Evolution, and Astronomy), the earth's position in the Universe ( Disproven b y Gallileo and later astronomers), how the animals came about and got to be what they are today ( Evolution), Jesus Going to Come Back someday ( He's had more than enough time and it never happened.  The closest thing to it was the probable findings of his dust and bonechips in a hole in the Ground in Jerusalem), Yahweh being the only God ( he was just a mythological character based on far earlier Gods and Goddesses from the Mesopotomian region) following the typical pattern of the evolution of Gods ie. the typical pattern of moving from polytheism to monotheism because its easier to control a populace if you group them all under one God instead of many gods.  A similar and earlier pattern is seen in Egypt with Akhenaton and in Persian with Zoroaster.

Yeah, every claim ever put forth to support the validty of The Bible has been roundly disproven since the beginning of the Age of Scientific Inquiry.  There's no reason to hold onto your fantasy.  The truth is we'll all see nothing someday.



Fireforgey on 11 February 2013
SlayerRondo said:

So the idea of Islam was justification for the killing of ten's of thousands of people? Why did god not just send a message to these leader's who were afraid of the influence of Islam? Could he just not be bothered to make his position clear to those who would oppose a system fo belief that has zero evidence to support itself.

And yes things were different back then but god is supposed to be eternal and he did not see fit to mention how despicable it was to marry a six year old and have sex with her at the age of nine. Just because people did bad thing's back then doe's not mean they should get off the hook especially when their the supposed phrophet of islam. And the girl's point of view on having sex at the age of NINE is irrelevant because she is NINE. Deal with it, you prophet was a pedophile.

And the good of islam that you claim would only exist in a society where everyone was gullible enough to ignore the contradiction's of Islam within itself and with scientific facts. And you're claim that you have to read it in a certain language is preposterous and simply a cheap answer to the question that hold's no weight. The english language is capable of expressing the ideals contained within the Quran and you simply cannot explain all the part's that make no sense. 

The discrepencies between themselves on what they though mohammad said are clearly visible in the Quran when it states scientifically disproven hypothesis and contradicts ITSELF. And the artistic merits of the book do not lend to it's credibility. Shakespear's works were artictic thing;s of beauty but no one go's around claming them to be the word of god now do they? Or if you truly bought into the Quran simple because it sounded nice and made you feel good then i feel genuinly sorry for you and hope you can see how rediculous it all is one day.

How do you know that a devil like being was not the one wispering to muhammad so that he could cause people to hate and fight each other for hundred's of year's over who has the roght of it.

And yes some madmen have done great thing's but most of them are just bonkers. Given the lack of evidence of his claim I'm going with either bonker's or attention seeking liar. 

Do not bind yourself to the past but look to the future. If god does exist simply tell him he did not provide enough proof and if he's a loving god he will probably let you into heaven anyway.


You're obviously not concentrating.   "And the girl's point of view on having sex at the age of NINE is irrelevant because she is NINE."  You do know that we have her positions quotes and ideals well past when she was 9.  I'm talking about her actions and quotes and opinions at the age of 50. I'm pretty sure THAT is relevant.  Or is it because she is a woman her opinions don't matter to you?

"Quran when it states scientifically disproven hypothesis and contradicts ITSELF"

As I said I will take a look at your website but I have never found a constradiction myself and as I said I will look at those specific cases in website time permitting.  However, yes language makes a difference.  There are a great many metaphores and uses of style in Quran that a translation by a person will never get it absolutely right.  That's why most translated Qurans have the original Arabic on one side and the English translation on the other. Also, I didn't claim that that is the only reason.  Maybe those who said there were contradictions are LYING.  You have to understand that I do have a life and I need a certain amount of free time to check my sources, your sources, compare them then write them down in a way you will understand. 

Why do you keep think that everytime I say, give me some time before I answer you imeidiatly assume it is a cop out.  I'm a busy person trying to balance work and get married at the same time.  Cut me some slack.