I'm not talking about predeterminism (where God decided what I would do before I did it), but pre-knowledge (God sees time as beginning, in progress, and ended, all at the same time).

As beings constrained by time, describing/understanding this is a lot like trying to describe/understand what the color spectrum would look like if our eyes could see all of it.

Omniscience implies predeterminism. Like I said, all outcomes are known. Order isn't relevant only outcome for each event/choice, doesn't matter what order they are in. And don't give me any bullshit about an omniscient being not able to know what outcome is associated with what choice.

@your other point, makes no sense. Even if God "turns off" knowledge for a moment while you choose, the choice has already been pretedermined. Just because he turns off knowledge at that particular point in time doesn't mean you can change an outcome that has been known since the beginning of time.

I think you are misrepresenting omniscience or forming an entirely new definition.

Definition of OMNISCIENT (Merriam-Webster)

: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight

: possessed of universal or complete knowledge

@happydolphin Yes, it is my fault. I'm opposed to responding to nonsense. It isn't worth my time.

It most certainly is. (your fault, and worth your time)

Your choice to not listen to a simple argument made is your choice, and your fault.

If you don't take me seriously, it's entirely your fault.

Your conclusion is still related specifically to a perspective inside of space-time. This kind of discussion bares a lot of similarity to discussions in theoretical physics and how the 'flow' of time might work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fabric_of_the_Cosmos

Part II: Time and Experience

Part II begins by addressing the issue that time is a very familiar concept, yet it is one of humanity's least understood concepts.

Chapter 5, "The Frozen River", deals with the question, "Does time flow?" One of the key points in this chapter deals with special relativity. Observers moving relative to each other have different conceptions of what exists at a given moment, and hence they have different conceptions of reality. The conclusion is that time does not flow, as all things simultaneously exist at the same time.

Pre-determination and pre-knowledge are two different doctrines on this topic as it applies to a belief in God. If you were to theorize a perspective outside of time, pre-knowledge does not necessarily have to imply pre-determination, though it would be difficult if not impossible for a mind constrained by time to fully grasp something like that. Given the 'frozen river' analogy above, would God pre-arrange all items in the frozen river (pre-determinism), or does he simply observe them (pre-knowledge)? Also, if he is outside of the constraints of time, what does a time describing word like 'pre' even mean to him?

EDIT: Ow, I just blew my own mind.

LOL, if he were, he would also have to be all-knowing, therefore he would know he was God and not be an atheist. However, if he is all-powerful than he could turn off his knowledge that he is God and still be an atheist, though this would be a self-defeating thing to do, and an all-powerful God that is all-knowing would know that turning off knowledge of himself would defeat himself, so he would never do such a thing... so we can safely say dsgrue is not God. :P

Are you even reading my responses? This is the third time I'm saying this now: time is not relevant.

There are a cluster of events with their known outcomes, order isn't relevant. Time isn't relevant. Predeterminism Preknowledge, it's the same damn thing. Determined prior to the event itself, and as everything is known prior to the Universe, all events and outcomes are already known.

You're basically arguing that God isn't omniscient, which is what I'm getting at. You're saying the way he sees events is different because it doesn't include time, but you're retarding God by saying that and neglecting to address the fact that even time independent, God would be able to associate outcomes with choices.

Edit: @Spurge, Oh you!

@bold. What he's saying is that pre or pro or tra or mentre or whatever, it means nothing to a God who is neither here nor there.......

Suggesting that God doesn't have knowledge of time as it relates to events is silly. You're suggesting an all-knowing being does not know something. Can't you see how completely absurd that is?

You're either not reading my statements, or you don't have the ability to leave a constrained perception of reality for the sake of discussion. Of course time and our perception of it is relevant to how we undestand these things, that's the entire point I'm making. Keep in mind that 'determined' requires an active role, 'known' is passive, the two are different things entirely. If you were (theoretically) to time travel into the future and observe future events, that does not by definition nullify the choices that built that observed future, nor does it nullify the decisions of the individuals inside this theoretical observed future. Also, if you were to travel back to your 'present' and refrain from influencing the future, would your knowledge of these theoretical future events nullify or make pointless any of the choices made in this future based simply of your pre-knowledge of these events? From a perspective inside time, your arguments make perfect, logical sense. If you attempt to step outside a linear view of time and allow your mind to get out of the box a little bit, it's actually a pretty cool theoretical discussion.

I gotcha. You don't like the word predetermined. Let's instead use preknown. Your comparison of time travel isn't valid. God isn't time traveling, he knows all always, time can be thrown out entirely. This is completely different from you not knowing your own choices until you travel through time to discover them.

You don't really have a case here, timmah. You're suggesting god doesn't know times associated with events, this would nullify the notion of omniscience.