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Forums - General - Why do some believe these characteristics of a Creator?

dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:

You're either not reading my statements, or you don't have the ability to leave a constrained perception of reality for the sake of discussion. Of course time and our perception of it is relevant to how we undestand these things, that's the entire point I'm making. Keep in mind that 'determined' requires an active role, 'known' is passive, the two are different things entirely. If you were (theoretically) to time travel into the future and observe future events, that does not by definition nullify the choices that built that observed future, nor does it nullify the decisions of the individuals inside this theoretical observed future. Also, if you were to travel back to your 'present' and refrain from influencing the future, would your knowledge of these theoretical future events nullify or make pointless any of the choices made in this future based simply of your pre-knowledge of these events? From a perspective inside time, your arguments make perfect, logical sense. If you attempt to step outside a linear view of time and allow your mind to get out of the box a little bit, it's actually a pretty cool theoretical discussion.

I gotcha. You don't like the word predetermined. Let's instead use preknown. Your comparison of time travel isn't valid. God isn't time traveling, he knows all always, time can be thrown out entirely. This is completely different from you not knowing your own choices until you travel through time to discover them.

You don't really have a case here, timmah. You're suggesting god doesn't know times associated with events, this would nullify the notion of omniscience.


Why would he not know time associated with events? From our perspective, we're outside of 'past' time, and we can represent that with a timeline. We can see all of the past events on the timeline. If God were outside of time, and sees past/preset/future (by our definition) as a timeline, he would certainly know the times associated with events, though he would not be constraind by the 'flow' of time as we observe it from within the 'river'.



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if you look for logic there is no logic to this

to all answer there is an anti answer

the biggest question is if the creator is everywhere why and how is he everywhere..simple!

there isnt any need to start from nothing because nothing is something..we simply called it nothing because we dont know what it is. if logic is in place here then something must have been existing before time as we know time. nothing is a big hole filled with particles that appear and disappear almost as if they were non existent. energy turns into mass and the other way around. so why is the creator here simply because he exists he is the alfa and omega. why is he everywhere ? because he is the beggining he is maybe that small spot that is now our galaxy he expands the same way people grow they become bigger and bigger. this is just an example I dont know how to put it so people get a beter understanding.

and jay your questions only a bible and other religions can answer properly this doesnt have anything to do with science or quality of thinking.

to put it even simpler hahaha... he is a man who works out and gets bigger so he creates his own muscles and expands and he does love his muscles and he does know his body and yes he has a plan when to take a shit and what to eat. this should answer it all i think.



Tsubasa Ozora

Keiner kann ihn bremsen, keiner macht ihm was vor. Immer der richtige Schuss, immer zur richtigen Zeit. Superfussball, Fairer Fussball. Er ist unser Torschützenkönig und Held.

timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:

You're either not reading my statements, or you don't have the ability to leave a constrained perception of reality for the sake of discussion. Of course time and our perception of it is relevant to how we undestand these things, that's the entire point I'm making. Keep in mind that 'determined' requires an active role, 'known' is passive, the two are different things entirely. If you were (theoretically) to time travel into the future and observe future events, that does not by definition nullify the choices that built that observed future, nor does it nullify the decisions of the individuals inside this theoretical observed future. Also, if you were to travel back to your 'present' and refrain from influencing the future, would your knowledge of these theoretical future events nullify or make pointless any of the choices made in this future based simply of your pre-knowledge of these events? From a perspective inside time, your arguments make perfect, logical sense. If you attempt to step outside a linear view of time and allow your mind to get out of the box a little bit, it's actually a pretty cool theoretical discussion.

I gotcha. You don't like the word predetermined. Let's instead use preknown. Your comparison of time travel isn't valid. God isn't time traveling, he knows all always, time can be thrown out entirely. This is completely different from you not knowing your own choices until you travel through time to discover them.

You don't really have a case here, timmah. You're suggesting god doesn't know times associated with events, this would nullify the notion of omniscience.


Why would he not know time associated with events? From our perspective, we're outside of 'past' time, and we can represent that with a timeline. We can see all of the past events on the timeline. If God were outside of time, and sees past/preset/future (by our definition) as a timeline, he would certainly know the times associated with events, though he would not be constraind by the 'flow' of time as we observe it from within the 'river'.

?????

-birth------------------event a -> choices ->outcome-----------event b -> choices -> outcome --------------death

Show me where on this timeline is a choice?



dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:

You're either not reading my statements, or you don't have the ability to leave a constrained perception of reality for the sake of discussion. Of course time and our perception of it is relevant to how we undestand these things, that's the entire point I'm making. Keep in mind that 'determined' requires an active role, 'known' is passive, the two are different things entirely. If you were (theoretically) to time travel into the future and observe future events, that does not by definition nullify the choices that built that observed future, nor does it nullify the decisions of the individuals inside this theoretical observed future. Also, if you were to travel back to your 'present' and refrain from influencing the future, would your knowledge of these theoretical future events nullify or make pointless any of the choices made in this future based simply of your pre-knowledge of these events? From a perspective inside time, your arguments make perfect, logical sense. If you attempt to step outside a linear view of time and allow your mind to get out of the box a little bit, it's actually a pretty cool theoretical discussion.

I gotcha. You don't like the word predetermined. Let's instead use preknown. Your comparison of time travel isn't valid. God isn't time traveling, he knows all always, time can be thrown out entirely. This is completely different from you not knowing your own choices until you travel through time to discover them.

You don't really have a case here, timmah. You're suggesting god doesn't know times associated with events, this would nullify the notion of omniscience.


Why would he not know time associated with events? From our perspective, we're outside of 'past' time, and we can represent that with a timeline. We can see all of the past events on the timeline. If God were outside of time, and sees past/preset/future (by our definition) as a timeline, he would certainly know the times associated with events, though he would not be constraind by the 'flow' of time as we observe it from within the 'river'.

?????

-birth------------------event a -> choices ->outcome-----------event b -> choices -> outcome --------------death

Show me where on this timeline is a choice?

Attempting to theorize perspective & knowledge as it would exist outside the constraints of time using only language & reasoning created from within the perspective & constraints of time is fairly difficult, which is why the best you're going to get is limited understanding and analogies.



timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:

?????

-birth------------------event a -> choices ->outcome-----------event b -> choices -> outcome --------------death

Show me where on this timeline is a choice?

Attempting to theorize perspective & knowledge as it would exist outside the constraints of time using only language & reasoning created from within the perspective & constraints of time is fairly difficult, which is why the best you're going to get is limited understanding and analogies.

Not relevant. Stop retarding God. He's all-knowing, it doesn't matter how he perceives information just that he has every single possible bit of information. You're saying God cannot differentiate time or order, which is completely stupid.



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dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:

?????

-birth------------------event a -> choices ->outcome-----------event b -> choices -> outcome --------------death

Show me where on this timeline is a choice?

Attempting to theorize perspective & knowledge as it would exist outside the constraints of time using only language & reasoning created from within the perspective & constraints of time is fairly difficult, which is why the best you're going to get is limited understanding and analogies.

Not relevant. Stop retarding God. He's all-knowing, it doesn't matter how he perceives information just that he has every single possible bit of information. You're saying God cannot differentiate time or order, which is completely stupid.

Not even close to what I'm saying, especially if you look at the 'frozen river' analogy. One standing outside the river would see and certainly be able to differentiate points in the river all at once ('time' as we know it), while one inside the flow of the river would only be experiencing the point where they currently are. A different perspective does not mean the inability to determine time and order.



timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:

?????

-birth------------------event a -> choices ->outcome-----------event b -> choices -> outcome --------------death

Show me where on this timeline is a choice?

Attempting to theorize perspective & knowledge as it would exist outside the constraints of time using only language & reasoning created from within the perspective & constraints of time is fairly difficult, which is why the best you're going to get is limited understanding and analogies.

Not relevant. Stop retarding God. He's all-knowing, it doesn't matter how he perceives information just that he has every single possible bit of information. You're saying God cannot differentiate time or order, which is completely stupid.

Not even close to what I'm saying, especially if you look at the 'frozen river' analogy. One standing outside the river would see and certainly be able to differentiate points in the river all at once ('time' as we know it), while one inside the flow of the river would only be experiencing the point where they currently are. A different perspective does not mean the inability to determine time and order.

Then you just admitted pre-knowledge.



dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:

?????

-birth------------------event a -> choices ->outcome-----------event b -> choices -> outcome --------------death

Show me where on this timeline is a choice?

Attempting to theorize perspective & knowledge as it would exist outside the constraints of time using only language & reasoning created from within the perspective & constraints of time is fairly difficult, which is why the best you're going to get is limited understanding and analogies.

Not relevant. Stop retarding God. He's all-knowing, it doesn't matter how he perceives information just that he has every single possible bit of information. You're saying God cannot differentiate time or order, which is completely stupid.

Not even close to what I'm saying, especially if you look at the 'frozen river' analogy. One standing outside the river would see and certainly be able to differentiate points in the river all at once ('time' as we know it), while one inside the flow of the river would only be experiencing the point where they currently are. A different perspective does not mean the inability to determine time and order.

Then you just admitted pre-knowledge.

Pre-knowledge (passive observation) =/= pre-determination (active 'forcing' of choices).



timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:

?????

-birth------------------event a -> choices ->outcome-----------event b -> choices -> outcome --------------death

Show me where on this timeline is a choice?

Attempting to theorize perspective & knowledge as it would exist outside the constraints of time using only language & reasoning created from within the perspective & constraints of time is fairly difficult, which is why the best you're going to get is limited understanding and analogies.

Not relevant. Stop retarding God. He's all-knowing, it doesn't matter how he perceives information just that he has every single possible bit of information. You're saying God cannot differentiate time or order, which is completely stupid.

Not even close to what I'm saying, especially if you look at the 'frozen river' analogy. One standing outside the river would see and certainly be able to differentiate points in the river all at once ('time' as we know it), while one inside the flow of the river would only be experiencing the point where they currently are. A different perspective does not mean the inability to determine time and order.

Then you just admitted pre-knowledge.

Pre-knowledge (passive observation) =/= pre-determination (active 'forcing' of choices).

Pre-knowledge means your path is known, all outcomes are known, you are following a deterministic path = predetermined. I'm not saying God influences your decisions, I'm saying God knows them.



dsgrue3 said:

Suggesting that God doesn't have knowledge of time as it relates to events is silly. You're suggesting an all-knowing being does not know something. Can't you see how completely absurd that is?

If we could do it, put concerns aside for a moment, why couldn't he? After all he is all powerful.

Silly your logic is. Silly logic is silly.