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Forums - General Discussion - Why do some believe these characteristics of a Creator?

timmah on 28 January 2013
dsgrue3 said:
happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

So is God omniscient, or do humans have free will? Can't have both.

It's both. He knows everything that will happen, and also gave us the will to choose. To me it's possible to have both since here we are. Free to choose our own destinies, and he knows it all from the very beginning. He made us, without using his omniscience, he just made us.

It is my belief that God can temporarily shut off any of his powers at will. On creation, it was his omniscience. To me that's part of him being all-powerful.


You cannot have both. Those are direct contradictions. Choose one.

Example:

There are 3 Doors, "A", "B", "C" - you see choice. God knows the outcome already, thus nullifying choice. You can't choose anything else as it's already been determined which choice you will make. You cannot deviate from this path because it is already known.

I knew that if you saw this thread, you would enter into a debate in this thread. This does not nullify your choice to enter this debate. :P



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happydolphin on 28 January 2013
dsgrue3 said:

You can't turn off knowledge, what is known is known.

You don't simply wake and say "hey guys I'm just gonna forget how to do basic arithmetic."

What a retarded argument.

We do that all the time. I know this world is going to shit, yet I still decide to have a child. I know the child will enter an evil world, but I hold to hope, even if that is somewhat illogical, I will still do it because that's my will.

Don't call my argument retarded.



dsgrue3 on 28 January 2013
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

So is God omniscient, or do humans have free will? Can't have both.

It's both. He knows everything that will happen, and also gave us the will to choose. To me it's possible to have both since here we are. Free to choose our own destinies, and he knows it all from the very beginning. He made us, without using his omniscience, he just made us.

It is my belief that God can temporarily shut off any of his powers at will. On creation, it was his omniscience. To me that's part of him being all-powerful.


You cannot have both. Those are direct contradictions. Choose one.

Example:

There are 3 Doors, "A", "B", "C" - you see choice. God knows the outcome already, thus nullifying choice. You can't choose anything else as it's already been determined which choice you will make. You cannot deviate from this path because it is already known.

I knew that if you saw this thread, you would enter into a debate in this thread. This does not nullify your choice to enter this debate. :P

Lol, I like it but you and I know that simply isn't the same thing. =D



dsgrue3 on 28 January 2013
happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

You can't turn off knowledge, what is known is known.

You don't simply wake and say "hey guys I'm just gonna forget how to do basic arithmetic."

What a retarded argument.

We do that all the time. I know this world is going to shit, yet I still decide to have a child. I know the child will enter an evil world, but I hold to hope, even if that is somewhat illogical, I will still do it because that's my will.

Don't call my argument retarded.

and what does this have to do with turning off knowledge? Oh right, not a damn thing. 

You cannot turn off what you know. I cannot believe you're arguing that you can. I challenge you to turn off your knowledge of English. Good luck.



happydolphin on 28 January 2013
dsgrue3 said:

and what does this have to do with turning off knowledge? Oh right, not a damn thing. 

You cannot turn off what you know. I cannot believe you're arguing that you can. I challenge you to turn off your knowledge of English. Good luck.

I can, in a moment, turn off certain thoughts or concerns. I have that power.

If I have that power, I wouldn't be too surprised if God did too.



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timmah on 28 January 2013
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

So is God omniscient, or do humans have free will? Can't have both.

It's both. He knows everything that will happen, and also gave us the will to choose. To me it's possible to have both since here we are. Free to choose our own destinies, and he knows it all from the very beginning. He made us, without using his omniscience, he just made us.

It is my belief that God can temporarily shut off any of his powers at will. On creation, it was his omniscience. To me that's part of him being all-powerful.


You cannot have both. Those are direct contradictions. Choose one.

Example:

There are 3 Doors, "A", "B", "C" - you see choice. God knows the outcome already, thus nullifying choice. You can't choose anything else as it's already been determined which choice you will make. You cannot deviate from this path because it is already known.

I knew that if you saw this thread, you would enter into a debate in this thread. This does not nullify your choice to enter this debate. :P

Lol, I like it but you and I know that simply isn't the same thing. =D

You're also making a faulty argument if indeed God lives outside the constraints of time. Faulty because your argument is posed from a perspective of living inside and being limited by the dimension of time, that perspective and its resulting argument could not apply to a being that is not constrained by time, which is your premise. If to God, time is beginning, in progreess, and finished all at the same time, looking ahead to see what you choose to do (from outside of time) does not by definition nullify the choice you made from your perpective inside the constraints of time, it simply observes that choice.





dsgrue3 on 28 January 2013
happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

and what does this have to do with turning off knowledge? Oh right, not a damn thing. 

You cannot turn off what you know. I cannot believe you're arguing that you can. I challenge you to turn off your knowledge of English. Good luck.

I can, in a moment, turn off certain thoughts or concerns. I have that power.

If I have that power, I wouldn't be too surprised if God did too.

I can't take you seriously anymore. Sorry. 



dsgrue3 on 28 January 2013
timmah said:

You're also making a faulty argument if indeed God lives outside the constraints of time. Faulty because your argument is posed from a perspective of living inside and being limited by the dimension of time, that perspective and its resulting argument could not apply to a being that is not constrained by time, which is your premise. If to God, time is beginning, in progreess, and finished all at the same time, looking ahead to see what you choose to do (from outside of time) does not by definition nullify the choice you made from your perpective inside the constraints of time, it simply observes that choice.

 

Time is not relevant in predeterminism. You have a certain path - a chain of events, order isn't relevant; only that the outcomes for each choice are known (which they would be in the case of omniscience). So, at best, you have the illusion of free will if there is an omniscient creator.



happydolphin on 28 January 2013
dsgrue3 said:

I can't take you seriously anymore. Sorry. 

That's your fault.



timmah on 28 January 2013
dsgrue3 said:
happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

You can't turn off knowledge, what is known is known.

You don't simply wake and say "hey guys I'm just gonna forget how to do basic arithmetic."

What a retarded argument.

We do that all the time. I know this world is going to shit, yet I still decide to have a child. I know the child will enter an evil world, but I hold to hope, even if that is somewhat illogical, I will still do it because that's my will.

Don't call my argument retarded.

and what does this have to do with turning off knowledge? Oh right, not a damn thing. 

You cannot turn off what you know. I cannot believe you're arguing that you can. I challenge you to turn off your knowledge of English. Good luck.

I may be able to beat the crap out of you in arm wrestling, but I choose not to...

You're using an example of limited abilities as a parallel to describe something that is by definition unlimited. Of course you can't turn something off by will, but if you were in complete, total control of your own mind, why could you not? God is described as removing the forgiven sins of humanity from his memory. If he is all powerful, he could in theory do that.

There are far more interesting questions on this topic. Would an all-knowing God automatically know everything, or would he only know what he observes? Even if he had the ability to observe everything, would he or would he not choose to do so? If not, is he actually 'all knowing' in that sense of the word, or does he just have the ability/capacity to know everything (limited only by his own choice)? Does all knowing mean observing everything that happens, or having all wisdom & knowledge as it relates to the workings of his creation? There are biblical descriptions of God asking people for their opinion, or sending in humans or angels to observe a situation. Does this mean the God in this discussion could not do it on his own, or did he simply choose to involve others in the observation or decision making process? These philosophical questions are far to deep to be answered by a simple logical train of thought that only arrives at a shallow yes/no answer.