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Forums - General Discussion - If you are against gay marriage, explain why without mentioning religion

 

Are you for or against gay marriage?

For 290 49.49%
 
Against 171 29.18%
 
don't know 16 2.73%
 
whatever who cares? 108 18.43%
 
Total:585
Michael-5 said:

For someone whose volunteered in sex clinics and mental health centers (CAMH in Canada), I'm againt homosexuality because it is a psychological disorder classified as "Sexual Orientation Disturbance" in the DSG III "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

It was reclassified as "Sexual disorder not otherwise specified" in 1987 due to popitical reasons (Gay people were being killed in the USA for being Gay, while the act of homosexuallity is not dangerous outside of the spreading of STD's). I'm not sure if it was ever removed entirely.

 

However Gay Marriage, I'm fine with. We have no cure for homosexuality, we don't even know the cause of it, and most treatments supress all sexual urges, not just homosexual ones (however that is begining to change). Since we have no cure for a non harmful psychological illness, then why should gay people be refused marriage? We might not find a cure for 50 more years, and that's longer then most marriages.

Also because it's a non-threating or violoent, and livable sexual disorder, if a cure were to ever become invented, it's the homosexuals choice to use it or not. So, if a cure comes up in 10 years, there is no reason why gay marriages should not be honored.

 

So Homosexuality, I'm against, it's a disorder, simple as that.

Homosexual behavior, I am indifferent to, however I do want to push safe sex between these people because not all homosexuals are purely homosexual, and STD's can spread to the heterosexual community.

Gay Marriage, I'm all for, keeps the STD's isolated LOL. No, they can do what they like.


Homosexuality is not a mental disorder:

Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

And heterosexuals get plenty of STDs to. It's not just a gay thing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6893897



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Cub said:
Michael-5 said:

For someone whose volunteered in sex clinics and mental health centers (CAMH in Canada), I'm againt homosexuality because it is a psychological disorder classified as "Sexual Orientation Disturbance" in the DSG III "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

It was reclassified as "Sexual disorder not otherwise specified" in 1987 due to popitical reasons (Gay people were being killed in the USA for being Gay, while the act of homosexuallity is not dangerous outside of the spreading of STD's). I'm not sure if it was ever removed entirely.

 

However Gay Marriage, I'm fine with. We have no cure for homosexuality, we don't even know the cause of it, and most treatments supress all sexual urges, not just homosexual ones (however that is begining to change). Since we have no cure for a non harmful psychological illness, then why should gay people be refused marriage? We might not find a cure for 50 more years, and that's longer then most marriages.

Also because it's a non-threating or violoent, and livable sexual disorder, if a cure were to ever become invented, it's the homosexuals choice to use it or not. So, if a cure comes up in 10 years, there is no reason why gay marriages should not be honored.

 

So Homosexuality, I'm against, it's a disorder, simple as that.

Homosexual behavior, I am indifferent to, however I do want to push safe sex between these people because not all homosexuals are purely homosexual, and STD's can spread to the heterosexual community.

Gay Marriage, I'm all for, keeps the STD's isolated LOL. No, they can do what they like.

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in its fourth version states clearly that homosexuality isn't a pathology, and the recent fifth version emphasized that. The ICD (the international version of the of the DSM) also doesn't classify homosexuality as a pathology. But whatever suits your case I guess.

First of all the DSG doesn't classify what isn't a disorder, only what is. DSG IV I think removed homosexuality as a disorder, but not because of evidence showing that it isn't a disorder, but because of political pressure.

That said, Gay marriage is fine. We have no cure for homosexuality.



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timmah said:
Jay520 said:
Michael-5 said:

For someone whose volunteered in sex clinics and mental health centers (CAMH in Canada), I'm againt homosexuality because it is a psychological disorder classified as "Sexual Orientation Disturbance" in the DSG III "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

Also because it's a non-threating or violoent, and livable sexual disorder, if a cure were to ever become invented, it's the homosexuals choice to use it or not. So, if a cure comes up in 10 years, there is no reason why gay marriages should not be honored.

So Homosexuality, I'm against, it's a disorder, simple as that.


Please explain to me how homosexuality is a psychological disorder. A psychological disorder must be either 1.) prevent the person from functioning in society, 2.) cause the person discomfort, or 3.) cause the person to be dangerous to self or others. Homosexuality satisfies none of those criteria, so how exactly is it a disorder?

You could make the case that homosexuality is a psychological disorder because it's uncommon. Well, if that's your criteria of a disorder, then you must also classify left-handed people or monks as having a psychological disorder, merely because they are uncommon. By that token, are you 'against' left-handedness as well? Probably not. So what is it about homosexuals that you're against that you can't say the same about other uncommon people (like left-handed people, and monks)?

Not jumping on the bandwagon here, just playing devil's advocate.

If you consider the definition of a disorder: A medical condition involving a disturbance to the usual functioning of the mind or body.

Then consider that, the purely natural purpose of the sexual functions of the human body (outside of pleasure and personal enjoyment) are for reproduction, and natural reproduction is impossible in homosexual activity. This could technically classify it as a disorder by the strict definition of the word

Yes, exactly. Sex is biologically designed as an act to furthur populations. There are reasons why males want to get laid more then women, and that women are more selective (more reward for males, we don't have the consequence of pregnancy). For the same reason Tigers kills the cubs of any females they mate with because of genetic evolution.

Homosexuality, like schitzophenia, is a random disorder. You don't pass on homosexuality to your children, it's not a gene, just an imbalance. It completly removes the purpose of sex from it's genetic intention, and does nothing to improve the fitness of a species. If anything it hurts the fitness by spreading STD's.

 

This is different from Monks in China because abstinance is a cognitive choice made by the individuals. It is not something which is forced upon you, Homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals, and many homosexuals attempt to live heterosexual lives.

Just like schitzophenia, you don't choose to be schitzo. Hence this is a disorder because it prevents people who would otherwise be functioning normally, to reproduce.



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Michael-5 said:
Cub said:
Michael-5 said:

For someone whose volunteered in sex clinics and mental health centers (CAMH in Canada), I'm againt homosexuality because it is a psychological disorder classified as "Sexual Orientation Disturbance" in the DSG III "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

It was reclassified as "Sexual disorder not otherwise specified" in 1987 due to popitical reasons (Gay people were being killed in the USA for being Gay, while the act of homosexuallity is not dangerous outside of the spreading of STD's). I'm not sure if it was ever removed entirely.

 

However Gay Marriage, I'm fine with. We have no cure for homosexuality, we don't even know the cause of it, and most treatments supress all sexual urges, not just homosexual ones (however that is begining to change). Since we have no cure for a non harmful psychological illness, then why should gay people be refused marriage? We might not find a cure for 50 more years, and that's longer then most marriages.

Also because it's a non-threating or violoent, and livable sexual disorder, if a cure were to ever become invented, it's the homosexuals choice to use it or not. So, if a cure comes up in 10 years, there is no reason why gay marriages should not be honored.

 

So Homosexuality, I'm against, it's a disorder, simple as that.

Homosexual behavior, I am indifferent to, however I do want to push safe sex between these people because not all homosexuals are purely homosexual, and STD's can spread to the heterosexual community.

Gay Marriage, I'm all for, keeps the STD's isolated LOL. No, they can do what they like.

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in its fourth version states clearly that homosexuality isn't a pathology, and the recent fifth version emphasized that. The ICD (the international version of the of the DSM) also doesn't classify homosexuality as a pathology. But whatever suits your case I guess.

First of all the DSG doesn't classify what isn't a disorder, only what is. DSG IV I think removed homosexuality as a disorder, but not because of evidence showing that it isn't a disorder, but because of political pressure.

That said, Gay marriage is fine. We have no cure for homosexuality.


First of all, it's DSM not DSG. Second of all, fine, but it does classify what is a disorder. Finally, no cure needed because it clearly states that homosexuality isn't a pathology, only pathologies need cure.

Political pressure or not, I don't care. They've done what is right.



nuckles87 said:
Michael-5 said:

For someone whose volunteered in sex clinics and mental health centers (CAMH in Canada), I'm againt homosexuality because it is a psychological disorder classified as "Sexual Orientation Disturbance" in the DSG III "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

It was reclassified as "Sexual disorder not otherwise specified" in 1987 due to popitical reasons (Gay people were being killed in the USA for being Gay, while the act of homosexuallity is not dangerous outside of the spreading of STD's). I'm not sure if it was ever removed entirely.

 

However Gay Marriage, I'm fine with. We have no cure for homosexuality, we don't even know the cause of it, and most treatments supress all sexual urges, not just homosexual ones (however that is begining to change). Since we have no cure for a non harmful psychological illness, then why should gay people be refused marriage? We might not find a cure for 50 more years, and that's longer then most marriages.

Also because it's a non-threating or violoent, and livable sexual disorder, if a cure were to ever become invented, it's the homosexuals choice to use it or not. So, if a cure comes up in 10 years, there is no reason why gay marriages should not be honored.

 

So Homosexuality, I'm against, it's a disorder, simple as that.

Homosexual behavior, I am indifferent to, however I do want to push safe sex between these people because not all homosexuals are purely homosexual, and STD's can spread to the heterosexual community.

Gay Marriage, I'm all for, keeps the STD's isolated LOL. No, they can do what they like.


Homosexuality is not a mental disorder:

Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

And heterosexuals get plenty of STDs to. It's not just a gay thing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6893897

Psychopathology is not the only straind of mental disorders. If you read the DSM, it's actually layered in terms of types and seriousness of disorders. Psychopathic disorders are disorders which make individuals anti social, emotionally shallow, lack empathy and often distrubed, homosexuals are not anti-social, nor are they disturned, and if they are getting married I'm sure they still have stong emotions.

Schizophrenia has been documented for thousands of years in human history. It's an natural chemical imbalance which affects 1% of the population at random. It's natural, beleived to be an error in gene copying, it's been a part of many cultures and histories, but is it normal? Far from it. The only difference from this illness and homosexuality is that this illness is dangerous, and it seriously retards the functions of a brain, homosexuality is not dangerous, and doesn't affect cognative decision making.

Many psychological disorders are non harmful to others. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is for example always obsesing about having things done a specific way. Most people are mildly obsessive comopulsive, but does alligning all the orange juice bottles in the fridge to face forward hurt anyone? Nope. Still a disorder.

Also, Homosexuals have a higher chance of carrying and transmitting STD's because often times homosexual behavior is performed without protection. Of course heterosexuals have STD's as well, my arguement was that if anything homosexuallity harms the fitness of the human species by spreading STD's. Heterosexuals can of course spread STD's, but statistically homosexuals and especially bisexuals are more often found carrying them.



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Michael-5 said:

Yes, exactly. Sex is biologically designed as an act to furthur populations. There are reasons why males want to get laid more then women, and that women are more selective (more reward for males, we don't have the consequence of pregnancy). For the same reason Tigers kills the cubs of any females they mate with because of genetic evolution.

Homosexuality, like schitzophenia, is a random disorder. You don't pass on homosexuality to your children, it's not a gene, just an imbalance. It completly removes the purpose of sex from it's genetic intention, and does nothing to improve the fitness of a species. If anything it hurts the fitness by spreading STD's.

This is different from Monks in China because abstinance is a cognitive choice made by the individuals. It is not something which is forced upon you, Homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals, and many homosexuals attempt to live heterosexual lives.

Just like schitzophenia, you don't choose to be schitzo. Hence this is a disorder because it prevents people who would otherwise be functioning normally, to reproduce.

You say you're against homosexuality because it spreads STDs. But there's no intrinsic connection between homosexuality and unprotected sex. What you are against is a specific subset of homosexuals: homosexuals who practice unprotected sex. Based on what you said, you shouldn't have a problem with homosexuality as a whole, because homosexals as a whole don't all practice unprotected sex. There are plenty of homoesexuals who practice safe sex, and you should be fine with those people. 

As for the disorder definition, you probably could find a definition that matches homosexuality. That's not really my point. I'm interested in your own personal feelings. I'm interested in the inherent quality of homosexuality that makes you "against" homosexuality. The only inherent 'flaw' of homosexuality is the inability to naturally reproduce. I guess you could be against homosexuality for that reason, though I really don't see why you should care about other people's ability to reproduce.



Cub said:
Michael-5 said:

First of all the DSG doesn't classify what isn't a disorder, only what is. DSG IV I think removed homosexuality as a disorder, but not because of evidence showing that it isn't a disorder, but because of political pressure.

That said, Gay marriage is fine. We have no cure for homosexuality.


First of all, it's DSM not DSG. Second of all, fine, but it does classify what is a disorder. Finally, no cure needed because it clearly states that homosexuality isn't a pathology, only pathologies need cure.

Political pressure or not, I don't care. They've done what is right.

Yea, I just realized I've been typing DSG, even though I wrote out what DSM statds for lol.

Actually Homosexuality does still classify a disorder. Just not a psycopathic disorder because it lack 1/4 D's (Dangerous). It does fit the other 3 (Deviance, Distress, and Disfunction).

Also there are cures for homosexuality, they are just crap. However there was no cure for schitzophenia 300 years ago, does that mean it's not a disorder?

Homosexuality occurs randomly in the population, there is no gay gene, and this is not a cognative decision made by individuals. You don't become gay because your dad hit you as a kid and you don't trust men anymore. Instead it's believed to be an error which occurs in the copying of genes, similar to schitzophenia.

Mutations are a normal part of evolution. Without them, people don't evolve. Homosexuality is a common mutation, which is determental to the fitness of a species. You could argue all day, do we classify it as a disorder like many brain disorders, or as adefect like Down Syndrome, or do we just leave it as a common mutation, like being albino?

Either way it's not normal, and it reduces fitness (homosexuals cannot reproduce). Homosexuals cannot choose to be heterosexuals, and even with treatment it's difficult to force an individual to do so.

That said, I see nothing wrong with people being gay. It's a non dangerous disorder, it's not their fault. We accept people with down syndrome, why not gays? It's a defect/disorder/mutation which doesn't affect the cognative abilities of an individual, except higher instances of depression (but who wouldn't be when everyone hates you), so there is no reason why we should stop gays from marriage.



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Michael-5 said:


Actually Homosexuality does still classify a disorder. Just not a psycopathic disorder because it lack 1/4 D's (Dangerous). It does fit the other 3 (Deviance, Distress, and Disfunction).

Deviance describes behavior that goes against how a society feels people should act. First of all, homosexuality isn't a behavior or action; it's a desire. Second of all, homosexuality is accepted in most First World countries; most people don't care about your sexual orientation as long as you don't push it down their throat.

But most importantly, what's inherently wrong with deviance that makes you 'against' it? Are you telling me you're against all behavior just that's not accepted in society? Do you derive all of your values from what society feels should be right? I hope not.

Homosexuality causes distress for some people, not all. And for those some people, the distress is usually caused by society, not by homosexuality itself. Regardless though, homosexuality would only be distressful for certain people, and thus would be a disorder for certain people. For the people who are not distressed with their homosexuality (whom I assume are the majority), it wouldn't be a disorder at all.

People have their own definitions on what qualifies as functional. Some people feel that natural reproduction is necessary for a functional life, and yet plenty of others do not. For those people, homosexuality wouldn't be disfunctional for them, and wouldn't qualify as a disorder. 



Jay520 said:
Michael-5 said:

Yes, exactly. Sex is biologically designed as an act to furthur populations. There are reasons why males want to get laid more then women, and that women are more selective (more reward for males, we don't have the consequence of pregnancy). For the same reason Tigers kills the cubs of any females they mate with because of genetic evolution.

Homosexuality, like schitzophenia, is a random disorder. You don't pass on homosexuality to your children, it's not a gene, just an imbalance. It completly removes the purpose of sex from it's genetic intention, and does nothing to improve the fitness of a species. If anything it hurts the fitness by spreading STD's.

This is different from Monks in China because abstinance is a cognitive choice made by the individuals. It is not something which is forced upon you, Homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals, and many homosexuals attempt to live heterosexual lives.

Just like schitzophenia, you don't choose to be schitzo. Hence this is a disorder because it prevents people who would otherwise be functioning normally, to reproduce.

You say you're against homosexuality because it spreads STDs. But there's no intrinsic connection between homosexuality and unprotected sex. What you are against is a specific subset of homosexuals, homosexuals who practice unprotected sex. Based on what you said, you shouldn't have a problem with homosexuality as a whole, because there are plenty of homoesexuals who practice safe sex, and you should be fine with those people.

As for the disorder definition, you probably could find a definition that matches homosexuality. That's not really my point. I'm interested in an inherent quality of homosexuality that makes you "against" homosexuality. The only inherent 'flaw' of homosexuality is the inability to naturally reproduce. I guess you could be against homosexuality for that reason, though I really don't see why you should care about other people's ability to reproduce.

Actually there is, Homosexuals have higher odds at carrying most STD's. I could look uo the numbers, but it should be pretty obvious. Bisexuals especially have the highest frequency of STD's per capita.

However, you are correct, I have nothing against homosexuals who practice safe sex.

As for your second point, it's not that I see homosexuality as a "flaw" but as a mutation which hurts the fitness of a species. I reaslly don't care if people are gay, we have enough people in the world, but it's still a mutation/disorder/defect, which is nagative towards humanity as a whole.

 

So like you said, I have nothing against homosexuals who practice safe sex. However I am pro looking for a cure because many homosexuals don't wish to be homosexuals, and it's unfair to them that they can't live life in a normal way. People don't choose to become gay, so for now, gay marriage is the answer to their problems. Once there is a cure for homosexuality my opinion on gay marriage might change.

Homosexuality isn't a big deal to me, just like Albinoism isn't, However am I against looking for a cure for people who can't produce melatop in their skin to protect them from the sun? No, I want to help these people out, just like I want to help cure homosexuality because given the choice, many homosexuals would choose to "cure" themselves and become straight.

 

Also for reference, It's difficult to draw the line from disorder and defect. Schizophrenia is a disorder of the brain, but there are theories that this could be due to a mutation in gene replication. If that's true, Schizophenia would actually be labeled as both a defect and a disorder. We don't know what the underlying cause for homosexuality is. We don't know if it's defeloped or if you're born with it. However it's different from the normal, it causes people to behave in ways which are not normal, and it's not something which an affected individual has the ability to change. So homosexuallity is definatly something.

But like you said, it doesn't affect you, so why should you care? Well if I ever had a child and he was born homosexual, but wanted to be heterosexual, I would like to know there is a "cure" so that he could live a normal lifestyle and reproduce, and give me grandchildren.

However we still need to accept homosexuals in our culture because there is no cure.



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Jay520 said:
Michael-5 said:


Actually Homosexuality does still classify a disorder. Just not a psycopathic disorder because it lack 1/4 D's (Dangerous). It does fit the other 3 (Deviance, Distress, and Disfunction).

Deviance describes behavior that goes against how a society feels people should act. First of all, homosexuality isn't a behavior or action; it's a desire. Second of all, homosexuality is accepted in most First World countries; most people don't care about your sexual orientation as long as you don't push it down their throat.

But most importantly, what's inherently wrong with deviance that makes you 'against' it? Are you telling me you're against all behavior just that's not accepted in society? Do you derive all of your values from what society feels should be right? I hope not.

Homosexuality causes distress for some people, not all. And for those some people, the distress is usually caused by society, not by homosexuality itself. Regardless though, homosexuality would only be distressful for certain people, and thus would be a disorder for certain people. For the people who are not distressed with their homosexuality (whom I assume are the majority), it wouldn't be a disorder at all.

People have their own definitions on what qualifies as functional. Some people feel that natural reproduction is necessary for a functional life, and yet plenty of others do not. For those people, homosexuality wouldn't be disfunctional for them, and wouldn't qualify as a disorder. 

Homosexuality is a defect which makes people desire to do acts which are deviant to regular society. Also accepted by many (Many don't accept it, especially in the southern USA and and Asian cultures), it's still different from the normal. People are designed to have sex with oposite genders. The act of homosexuality is deviant in itself.

I told you, I have nothing against homosexuality, I just view it like it is, a disorder/defect. I'd rather there be a cure so that homosexuals can become heterosexuals like they are suppose to be, but the cures which exist now are crap, and they ruin the sex drive among individuals for the most part entirely. I'm fine with gays existing, but that doesn't mean I don't want it to stop.

I don't know the rates of depressions between homosexuals and heterosexuals, but I recall there is a significantly higher occurance. Also, I think all homosexuals are depressed at one point in their life because of this illness.

It doesn't matter what people themselves define as functional. In society you don't need to reproduce to be a functional member of it. However from a genetics point of view, homosexuality is disfunctional. There is no arguement here, people are designed to reproduce sexually, if we were designed to be homosexuals, we would all have some sort of hermaphedite system in us.

Speaking of which, hermaphidites do exist. There are people in the world who are born with either neither sexual organ (and just have a pee-hole), or both sexual organs. Do I have a problem with this? No. Do I want people with these rare illnesses to have the option to be "fixed" of course I do.

 

Do you not wish for there to be a cure for homosexualism? Do you not have sympathy for those who are homosexuals, but wish to be heterosexual?



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