Facts? those are opinions.

I completly disagree. You can't compare shipped units on one medium, refusing VGC data, and then use VGC data for the other. If you're going to compare GT5 to Forza, you compare it based on sales. Forza 3, 4 and Horizon have shipped many onsold units too.

Also, I was refering to console games only. When people play GT/Forza as simulation racing games at their finest, I don't think they even put GT PSP on the same level. It's portable Gran Turismo, nothing more (well a great game imo).

Yes, sorry, I shouldn't have said install base. I was tired, chose the wrong word. I meant to say that the total number of individual game sales is higher for Forza then it is for GT on consoles.

I don't disagree with your numbers, but I think they are off. I bet about 2.5 million Forza 3 fans have probably bought Forza 4 or Horizon (or both), but of the other 2 million, I associate 1 million with console bundles, and 1.5 million with people who didn't get a second game in the franchise. So Forza 3 brings in 5 million unique users, Forza 4 probably adds another 500k, plus 1 million more for bundles (I assume this game will end at about 4 million), and Forza Horizon will probably add 500k unique users on it's own. So for Forza 5 + 1.5 + 0.5 = 7 million unique users. (How the heck did you get 3.3? That means that each Forza 3 owner has 1.5 copies of the game LOL).

GT5, lets say end up with 10.5 million sales. I bet 3/4 GT5P owners also own GT5, so 10.5 + 1 = 11.5 million.

So obviously the install base for GT5 is higher then Forza, but the ratio is probably closer to 3:2, not 2:1.

So there is a smaller install base then games sold? Read above, I think you guys use every chance to knock Forza where you can. As it stands, the franchise is comparable to GT5 in terms of install base, loyal fans, sales, ratings, sim quality, etc, etc.

The install base is just the unique users of a franchise... if I brought Forza 2, Forza 3 and Forza 4 I was counted just 1 time.

The Forza fanbase in 2010 was a little over 4 million but that fanbase not growed... the Forza fanbase today is little than it was in 2010... the guys that brought Forza 3 not brought Forza 4... so the fanbase is below 3 million (almots 1 million Forza 4 sales are bundled and not fanbase buys).

That's what I'm saying.

You can't sum the sales of the games to count the install base...

Well, I wasn't trying to calculate install base, more like fanbase.  In other words, the amount of people who will always come back for the Forza experience.  Not an exact science, I know, but I don't think it's that far off.

Oh yea, I forgot about Forza Motorsport 2.

Anyway, yes your right, so with your definition of an install base, Forza must have over 5 million since over 5 million copies of Forza 3 have been sold, and 5.2 million or whatever would mean that Forza 3 owners are solely responsible for all other Forza purchases, which can't be true due to Forza 2 having 2 million bundles, Forza 3 having 1.5 million, and Forza 4 being on the way to 1 million in bundles alone.

So I said the install base for Forza is probably 7 million, I didn't include Forza 2. With that it's probably 9 million (was heavily bundled). 11.5 compared to 9 million, nearly as many unique people own Forza as they do GT this gen, that's a huge jump from last gen.

As for fanbase, I just disagree. Say the fanbase when Forza 3 released was 3.5 million, it didn't shrink with Forza 4 coming out. A lot of people just didn't get Forza 4 because it's a) not as good as Forza 3, b) Not that much of a graphics/content improvement over Forza 3.

For he fanbase, I would argue Forza has over 5 million fans (Horizon probably brought it a few too), where GT is closer to 8 million atm, will have closer to 9 by the generations end.

So install base is nearly the same for Forza and GT, but the fanbase is probably nearly twice as big for GT then Forza. Does that matter? no, like Camero's vs. Mustangs, people who love one, have their reasons, and don't care about the other (unless they have both :-O!!!)

I think your estimates for fanbase are WAY WAY too high. A lot of people just buy the game because it's bundled with the system, as a gift, it's on sales, or just because it adds to the library, but the person isn't particular towards it. Most of GT owners are probably fans, but most of Forza game owners are bundled sales, or people owning multiple games (2-4, Horizon, etc).

Also of those 39 DLC cars aren't over ten of them are just 2011 versions of 2010 NASCAR cars which are pretty much almost exactly indentical cars with different paint jobs.  So in over two years you really only had about 29 new cars added.  Also they pretty much half assed the NASCAR cars since they forgot Dodge models.

LOL, that's one of my biggest issues about Gran Turismo. Most of the newest cars are 2007 models, and the game is a 2009 game. A 2007 Mustang is ancient, V8's only had just over 300hp, if they weren't going to update the garage in GT5, why didn't they include modern iterations or North American and European brands? Enough with the Nissans already lol.

Totally agree I like Skylines as much as the next guy but we really don't need 50 of them I just don't think the are going to add much more as far as new car DLC goes.  Plus the used car dealership is a pain in the ass since you never know what cars are going to be in it plus some of the standard cars look a lot worse then the premium cars.  I'm thinking that even most of the developers where embarrassed of most of the standard cars since the can't be used in the photo mode.  Also most of the cars that start out under 100 hp are totally useless for the most part even when fully upgraded. 

I think there are 84 Skylines, and 114 Nissans all together, but hey how many varients of essentially 4 Skylines do we need? Clearly 84 Skylines and 3 Mustangs makes a fair balance between Japanese Imports and US Domestic cars, and except for the Camero which came in DLC, none of the US Muscle cars even need to be new.