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Forums - Politics Discussion - How to Save the American Economy

Kasz216 said:
 


I wouldn't say that.  Free trade was the biggest driver of US economic expansion between WW2 and today. 

 

Outside which, protectionism and tarrifs end up getting protectionism and tariffs against you.   Protectionism and Tariffs really only work if your a small country nobody cares enough about to counter tariff against.

 

25% of US economic activity is trade... and that's low.

Our trade deficits come soley from China and Oil... nothing actually related to free trade.


Yeah, I know. But as I said, free trade is no longer free. Free trade is a good idea in theory, and I am actually against the ideas of tariffs. But desperate times call for desperate measures, and it's time for a change.

Harley-Davidson would have gone out of business in the 1980s if Congress didn't place import tax on foreign motorcycles. Also, That same tax caused Honda to build a motorcycle assembly plant in the US rather than pay the import tax. That Honda plant closed two years ago.

What is your plan to bring American jobs back to America?

http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/read.php?16,714764,714771

"How raising import tariffs saved Harley-Davidson"



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MDMAlliance said:
McDonaldsGuy said:


Well you'd have to have Congress pass a tariff, but as a President I will enforce immigration laws.


The President cannot "enforce" anything.  The President's power mostly lies within his power to say no.  AKA his veto power.


For a capable politician, that should be enough to make the congress life very difficult if they aren't inclined towards the presidential policies. Yes, even on the systems who follow Mostesquieu's original ideas of a strong legislative to hold back executive power. 

For a capable politician.



 

 

 

 

 

haxxiy said:
MDMAlliance said:
McDonaldsGuy said:


Well you'd have to have Congress pass a tariff, but as a President I will enforce immigration laws.


The President cannot "enforce" anything.  The President's power mostly lies within his power to say no.  AKA his veto power.


For a capable politician, that should be enough to make the congress life very difficult if they aren't inclined towards the presidential policies. Yes, even on the systems who follow Mostesquieu's original ideas of a strong legislative to hold back executive power. 

For a capable politician.

A veto can be overridden.  It may rarely happen, but if the President is being unreasonable with His/Her power, it'll happen more often.  The point is that you can't really do whatever you want as President.  Once you are President, there are a lot of other things that will stand in your way of making things happen.  People over estimate the power the President has.



MDMAlliance said:
haxxiy said:
MDMAlliance said:
McDonaldsGuy said:


Well you'd have to have Congress pass a tariff, but as a President I will enforce immigration laws.


The President cannot "enforce" anything.  The President's power mostly lies within his power to say no.  AKA his veto power.


For a capable politician, that should be enough to make the congress life very difficult if they aren't inclined towards the presidential policies. Yes, even on the systems who follow Mostesquieu's original ideas of a strong legislative to hold back executive power. 

For a capable politician.

A veto can be overridden.  It may rarely happen, but if the President is being unreasonable with His/Her power, it'll happen more often.  The point is that you can't really do whatever you want as President.  Once you are President, there are a lot of other things that will stand in your way of making things happen.  People over estimate the power the President has.

The same thing holds true in Brazil but I've never seen a veto being overriden. Even here the congress isn't willing to risk to look bad on the eyes of the populace by deliberately hindering executive decisions who are perceived as beneficial. Looking at Foxnews polls though, I guess they aren't quite bothered by unpopularity are they. People will keep voting democrat or republican so why bother...



 

 

 

 

 

McDonaldsGuy said:

Obama has no clue what he's doing. In this video, he criticized Bush for "taking out a credit card from the bank of China" and "driving up our national debt." In Bush's 8 years of Presidency, Bush racked up a phenomenal $4 trillion in debt. That was the record.

That was the record. Obama has no racked up $7 trillion in debt in just 4 years. God knows what will happen when he is re-elected - god help us.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyLmru6no4U

Obama is clueless as hell, as was Bush - but they are anti-American so they can get away with it. Someone who wants to SAVE America has no chance at the Presidency. Here are some ways to help save the American economy

- Tariffs

Tariffs ensure that the home country has the best advantage over outside competitors. Everything is made in China now - even American flags. Tariffs keep the jobs at home. Free trade just allows companies to ship jobs out of the country and use a cheaper labor force to produce goods then sell them here.

- Protectionism

Protectionism is important because America has run five straight record trade  deficits and has caused 3 million manufacturing jobs to be lost, with thousands of factories gone. Nations rise on economic nationalism, then they descend on free trade. If you run a trade deficit year after year like America is the nation will eventually go bust and other countries who have had a trade surplus year after year will have bought everything of value in America with their surplus cash at knockdown prices. China now holds over a trillion dollars in U.S. bonds and about 1.5 billion in USD.

- End illegal immigration

The stereotype of an illegal immigrant is someone who works in agriculture. No longer is that stereotype true - illegals now work in blue collar type jobs such as an electrician, a construction worker, a plumber, in the factories America does have, etc. etc. then they dominate the hospitality industry in many U.S. states. In fact, only 3% of illegals work in agriculture! California has a crumbling economy because of this issue. If we put a halt to illegal immigration and enforce laws, our economy will slowly spring back up.

There are other ways as well - raise taxes, cut spending, rebuild our infrastracture, etc. etc. but these 3 are HUGE and require immediate attention!

What do you guys think?

 

Tariffs ensure that we pay more for our the goods and services that we purchase.  It makes companies in the United States more competitive than companies outside of the U.S., for goods sold in the U.S.  The problem is that all consumers who purchase the goods made in the U.S. will have to pay  more for their goods.  Jobs will be created in the U.S., but the resources that our country used to produce these goods could have been better used for something that our country is more competitive at making.  We should produce that which we are most competant at producing, and if other countries produce something better than us, we should not focus on such goods, but rather, on those things that we produce best.  To artificially try to make our industries more competitive is actually to stifle our economy as a whole.

Tariffs are a subset of protectionism, and the same arguments seem to apply to protectionism as applied to tariffs.  For when we are protecting our home industries, we are effectively preventing competition from outside nations.  Since our economy is not subject to competition, we will lose competitiveness abroad, seeing as our companies will have no incentive to compete, being shielded by the government from that which spurs innovation, that is, the competitive process itself.  Therefore, by seeking to protect our industries, we are lowering our standards, and will be outperformed by the rest of the world.

As for enforcing illegal immigration laws to fix our economy, I don't think you have any idea what you are saying.  For you see, when we allow illegal immigrants into our country to work, they will work those jobs only that the market sees them as more fit for working than U.S.Americans, and so will help our economy to increase efficiency and production.  Therefore, allowing illegal immigrants into our country is a boon for local industry.  Now the problem that arises is this - U.S.Americans do not want to have jobs stolen from them from within their own country.  For the welfare of the constituents of this country it may be best that we enforce immigration laws.  With stricter enforcement of these laws, the companies who choose to employ Americans will have to adapt to what is actually available in America, and so actual Americans will benefit by way of more jobs.  But of course, those Americans who CAN compete in an economy where illegal immigration is not stopped, or immigration procedures are loosened, benefit from illegal immigration, as goods are produced and sold more cheaply.  Therefore, an increase in immigration from other nations is good for the most competitive Americans and bad for the least competitive Americans, while a decrease is  bad for the most competitive Americans and good for the least.  Now you may choose which ones you prefer.



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killerzX said:
Michael-5 said:
kain_kusanagi said:

I want a huge cut in government costs. That means closing crap like the Department of Education.

I want unions to have less power. We have all the worker's rights laws we need, now unions do nothing but costs us all money.

I want term limits for congress.

I want all our fuel resources utilized. That goes for oil, coal, coal to oil, wind, solar and most importantly nuclear.

I want congress to stop stealing money from Social Security.

I want the USA to leave the UN. The security council is a joke.

This is why the rest of the world makes fun of Americans for being dumb...I tink the Department of Education is one of the most important things needed in the USA.

im guessing you dont realize the the DOE does nothing, except waste money. it certainly doesnt educate anybody. we have over tripled spending on education in the past 3 decades, and test score have remained flat. we have nothing to show for it. nothing. we need to give control back to the states, and let them decide how to best educate kids.

Unions to have less power? Alright lets make life shit for people. Lets let Wal-Mart CEO's become richer, and the poor become poorer.

you are also demenstrating a complete lack of understanding basic economics. if businesses were run like that then they wouldnt be in business much longer. Businesses have an incentive to keep productive employees and to keep prices down for the consumer. CEO are getting richer right now and unions have death grips on many industries. its not because of lack of unions, its becuase of cronyism. Unions are corupt and care little about the workers. they only care about lining their pockets. 

Nuclear is the fuel of 70's, it's more efficient to put tons of money into solar and pave large potions of the Arizona desert with solar panel cells. In labs, solar cells are already capable of higher then 35% efficiency, that's much higher then oil (which is about 25%), and in the real life market, 20% is available, but expensive ATM.

everything you just said is wrong. we waste billions buying trying to create false markets where there simply isnt one. Solar power just isnt ready.

Leave the UN??? WOW.

yes, it is just a anti-american quasi-socialist entity that does nothing in our best interests

 

Instead of making ideas on how to save the US economy baised on your personal opinions, you should conside what is best for everyone. A lot of the things you meantioned here would make life shittier and more expensive for the average person, and most of your ideas do not relate to this debt issue.



1. lol. If anything we have far too much state control as it is, which is why states like Mississippi have more poorly-educated kids than, say, Indiana or Wisconsin. We need to go the Japanese route on education: all power to the department of education which dictates directly to the school districts, with no local school boards and no state control in education.

One of the things the Japanese have gotten right, in any event.

2. The simplest approach here is an "all of the above" energy strategy, which focuses on cultivating existing energy infrastructures while slowly tightening carbon emissions regulations, and putting more R&D into sustainable solutions. Coal and oil in the short term, nuclear as a mid-term investment, wind, solar, and biodiesel as the long-term solutions.

3. In simplest terms, the UN has no authority over the United States. There is no good reason for us to leave the UN, since it is a tool through which we can excercise our diplomatic power (through the security council. Much as everyone bitches about Russian/Chinese obstinance, we do it too when it suits our interests). Most of what the UN is able to do is generally some common-sense stuff, like UNESCO or providing peacekeeping forces in nonaligned third world countries where they are generally most useful. The whole "UN is a socialist threat to America" is such utterly false crap.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

McDonaldsGuy said:


Cause they don't have greedy companies shipping jobs overseas by the millions and millions of illegal immigrants. Canada is far better ran than America. Normally I'd actually be against tariffs, but this is a situation in which we need them the most.

So greed is only an American characteristic? Riiiight.

Canada is in a much better situation because their structure for businesses is vastly superior to ours. Businesses have less incentive to move overseas. Not because of tariffs, but the regulatory and tax environment makes it much cheaper and easier to do business there. America is (also) exporting jobs there - we're doing something seriously wrong if the Canadians can make a car cheaper than we can.

Again, what tariffs will do is that every country will respond in kind. Our exporters will suffer severely. Some companies will come back, but their goods will be incredibly expensive to buy. How do you think the average person will handle PCs being $2,000 again, while the iPhone is $1,000 and a pair of cheap, generic shoes are $50 instead of $10?

That is exactly what tariffs will do. Tariffs don't fix the endemic problems inside of an economy, let me give you two examples:

 

1) The US can produce a widget for $1,000 per unit. China can produce it for $500. We dislike the fact that China can produce a widget for $500, so we levy a 100% tariff on widgets. In response, China levies a 100% tariff on American-made bumpers, which we can make for $500 and sell to China.

In this scenario, the average person has to pay 100% more for a widget, but we gain the widget-maker's job. We however, lose a bumper-makers job, because of China's tariff. Therefore, the net effect is that widgets cost more, and no jobs are created.

2) Brazil employs a very similar scheme with electronics in the real world. They levy a 100%+ tax on all assembled goods that go into their country. What is the result? An Xbox 360 costs $800 to buy. How many jobs did that create? None. They still don't have Xbox manufacturing. Instead, they make Sega Genesis' in country. In Brazil's case, the tariffs don't promote indigenous designs, they simply discourage consumers from buying products.

 

Instead, the smart thing to do in scenario 1 is to figure out how to make widgets cheaper than China - through regulations, research, and investment. This is what happens in countries that take a serious look at tax reforms, like Canada. As it stands, America has one of the highest corporate taxes worldwide. It discourages jobs from coming here. If we drop the rate, we bring jobs back from China and from other countries. That is key. Trade doesn't exist in a vaccum. Therefore, if we make it easier to build factories here, we bring jobs from everywhere.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
McDonaldsGuy said:


Cause they don't have greedy companies shipping jobs overseas by the millions and millions of illegal immigrants. Canada is far better ran than America. Normally I'd actually be against tariffs, but this is a situation in which we need them the most.

So greed is only an American characteristic? Riiiight.

Canada is in a much better situation because their structure for businesses is vastly superior to ours. Businesses have less incentive to move overseas. Not because of tariffs, but the regulatory and tax environment makes it much cheaper and easier to do business there. America is (also) exporting jobs there - we're doing something seriously wrong if the Canadians can make a car cheaper than we can.

Again, what tariffs will do is that every country will respond in kind. Our exporters will suffer severely. Some companies will come back, but their goods will be incredibly expensive to buy. How do you think the average person will handle PCs being $2,000 again, while the iPhone is $1,000 and a pair of cheap, generic shoes are $50 instead of $10?

That is exactly what tariffs will do. Tariffs don't fix the endemic problems inside of an economy, let me give you two examples:

 

1) The US can produce a widget for $1,000 per unit. China can produce it for $500. We dislike the fact that China can produce a widget for $500, so we levy a 100% tariff on widgets. In response, China levies a 100% tariff on American-made bumpers, which we can make for $500 and sell to China.

In this scenario, the average person has to pay 100% more for a widget, but we gain the widget-maker's job. We however, lose a bumper-makers job, because of China's tariff. Therefore, the net effect is that widgets cost more, and no jobs are created.

2) Brazil employs a very similar scheme with electronics in the real world. They levy a 100%+ tax on all assembled goods that go into their country. What is the result? An Xbox 360 costs $800 to buy. How many jobs did that create? None. They still don't have Xbox manufacturing. Instead, they make Sega Genesis' in country. In Brazil's case, the tariffs don't promote indigenous designs, they simply discourage consumers from buying products.

 

Instead, the smart thing to do in scenario 1 is to figure out how to make widgets cheaper than China - through regulations, research, and investment. This is what happens in countries that take a serious look at tax reforms, like Canada. As it stands, America has one of the highest corporate taxes worldwide. It discourages jobs from coming here. If we drop the rate, we bring jobs back from China and from other countries. That is key. Trade doesn't exist in a vaccum. Therefore, if we make it easier to build factories here, we bring jobs from everywhere.

You cannot compete with slave labor and serfs, sorry.

"Figure out a way to make widgets cheaper than China" -so you think Americans can live on $15 a day?

It discourages jobs from coming here.

No it does not.

we bring jobs back from China and from other countries.

What makes you think that? Companies have made it CLEAR that the reason they are going to China because it's CHEAPER workforce - and their more effectiveness. From Apple to Microsoft. From Cooper Tire to Verizon.

It's all about cheaper labor - they have admitted this a dozen times. Even Steve Jobs straight out said jobs are NEVER coming back to America due to China's cheap labor and more skilled work force.

And for you to think that an iPhone will cost $1000 (it almost already does btw) or a desktop $2000... you're wrong. In Canada, for example, they don't cost that much. The difference is almost negilable - plus, what's the point of cheaper prices if you don't have a livable wage or a job to pay for it?

Again, what tariffs will do is that every country will respond in kind.

No they won't. In fact, they usually respond positively. For example when America did a selective tariff on motorcycles in the 1980s to save Harley Davidson, not only did it help HD create more jobs here (and become the number 1 motorcycle company again) but Honda also opened a plant here to compete.

 We won't get out of this economy downturn (which will get worse soon) unless we take drastic measures.



mrstickball said:
McDonaldsGuy said:


Cause they don't have greedy companies shipping jobs overseas by the millions and millions of illegal immigrants. Canada is far better ran than America. Normally I'd actually be against tariffs, but this is a situation in which we need them the most.

So greed is only an American characteristic? Riiiight.

Canada is in a much better situation because their structure for businesses is vastly superior to ours. Businesses have less incentive to move overseas. Not because of tariffs, but the regulatory and tax environment makes it much cheaper and easier to do business there. America is (also) exporting jobs there - we're doing something seriously wrong if the Canadians can make a car cheaper than we can.

Again, what tariffs will do is that every country will respond in kind. Our exporters will suffer severely. Some companies will come back, but their goods will be incredibly expensive to buy. How do you think the average person will handle PCs being $2,000 again, while the iPhone is $1,000 and a pair of cheap, generic shoes are $50 instead of $10?

That is exactly what tariffs will do. Tariffs don't fix the endemic problems inside of an economy, let me give you two examples:

 

1) The US can produce a widget for $1,000 per unit. China can produce it for $500. We dislike the fact that China can produce a widget for $500, so we levy a 100% tariff on widgets. In response, China levies a 100% tariff on American-made bumpers, which we can make for $500 and sell to China.

In this scenario, the average person has to pay 100% more for a widget, but we gain the widget-maker's job. We however, lose a bumper-makers job, because of China's tariff. Therefore, the net effect is that widgets cost more, and no jobs are created.

2) Brazil employs a very similar scheme with electronics in the real world. They levy a 100%+ tax on all assembled goods that go into their country. What is the result? An Xbox 360 costs $800 to buy. How many jobs did that create? None. They still don't have Xbox manufacturing. Instead, they make Sega Genesis' in country. In Brazil's case, the tariffs don't promote indigenous designs, they simply discourage consumers from buying products.

 

Instead, the smart thing to do in scenario 1 is to figure out how to make widgets cheaper than China - through regulations, research, and investment. This is what happens in countries that take a serious look at tax reforms, like Canada. As it stands, America has one of the highest corporate taxes worldwide. It discourages jobs from coming here. If we drop the rate, we bring jobs back from China and from other countries. That is key. Trade doesn't exist in a vaccum. Therefore, if we make it easier to build factories here, we bring jobs from everywhere.

Part of the reason why i think a VAT would be better in lieu of a corporate tax. So long as the VAT rate hit slightly lower than existing corporate tax rates, but also caught everyone willing to do business in America in the net, likely increasing net revenue and not imposing the taxation burden on the corporations directly



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

Part of the reason why i think a VAT would be better in lieu of a corporate tax. So long as the VAT rate hit slightly lower than existing corporate tax rates, but also caught everyone willing to do business in America in the net, likely increasing net revenue and not imposing the taxation burden on the corporations directly


Anything would be better than the insane tax structure we have right now (for corporations). We're the highest rate in the OECD.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.