.
lilbroex said:
The compromises would not be so great. RE5 would have simply been built in RE4's engine and it would have been no issue with the userbase(RE4 sold excellently). The extraction engine itself could have been used for porting Dead Space(it worked fine for Goldeneye which also sold well). Those issues were never the real reasons. Devs just didn't care enough. They handicapped their own games then complained about their lack of success. They only used the Wii for a quick easy buck. They brought about their own failure. Most developers didn't even try with the Wii. Most of the games didn't even look or play as good as Gamecube games. Name one "good" third party game that had real effort put into on the Wii that didn't make a profit before 2011. Though all of this is completely beside the point of the topic of this thread. |
Barely making a profit isn't good enough. When developers see a userbase of that size, they want bigger sales.
They can "make a profit" on the PS3/360 too.
Fact is, there hasn't really been a "break out" huge success story of an indie game developer on the Wii or even DS.
There are several on the iOS/PC/XBLA side. If you're an indie developer that's where you're going to flock to. If Nintendo is so great for small developers, which small new developers have actually had huge success on the Wii or DS? *crickets*
It's just business, people take it as being personal, it's not. If there was a huge market for all these cool, core experiences on Wii, developers certainly would've supported the system with them.
When Nintendo can't even sell a product like Fatal Frame or Excitebots or The Last Story to really break out performance, what chance does a developer doing Little King Story have? Virtually none. Even things like Pikmin and F-Zero I think would've been a hard sell for Nintendo on Wii so they didn't even bother. If you want to sell product on Wii it's gotta either have Mario in it, or it has to be within the confines of the fitness/dance/party game formula as the platform was really driven by sales of Wii Sports + Fit.
Nintendo didn't give a crap about indie devs on Wii. Their Wiiware service was horrible and made developers jump through all kinds of arbitrary hoops (such as crippling game file limits). These devs are finding success on iOS/XBLA/Steam-PC ... not Nintendo platforms. These are the real breakthroughs for indie devs.
whatever they develop, they just need to put Wii in the title...
.
lilbroex said:
There has never been a "break out" huge success story of an indie game developer on the PS3 or 360 either. The ones who did release on the Wii had good success like Shin'en and the peope who made defendin the castle and Square-Enix. The facts still stand. Good games sold well on the Wii. There is not a single flop that was a truly good game exept for Zack & Wiki which had no marketing whatsoever. The Last Story made a profit in Japan(Mistwalker's second best selling game). All games release after the announcement of the Wii U were released on a dead console like Shenmue 2 on the Dreamcast. Have you ever looked at the sells of a Fatal Frame game? They have never been big selling. It sold as much on the Wii in each respective country as it sold on the PS2 versions in general. In fact, I think FF4 was the best selling Japanese Fatal Frame ever. You keep drawing conclusions that contradict the facts. Once again, games on the Wii cost 1/3 what they cost to make for the PS3/360, so the profit margin was 3 time higher. Wii game games also had a long shelf life. Any game sold on the Wii after the Wii U was announced received little to no attention as NIntendo pretty much killed the console and stopped supporting it. There was also the piracy issue that came into effect on the Wii after 2008 but thats another story. Even then, the games still made a profit. |
What's your point then?
If everything's so great and fine and dandy with Nintendo, then naturally there should be developers ripping down Nintendo's door to make content.
Of course none of this is Nintendo's fault, nor could it have anything to do with the possibility that Nintendo's increase in userbase largely came from a blue ocean audience that isn't interested in very many core experiences to begin with.
It's easy for you to sit there and say "well they should make more games for Nintendo". What exactly do you have invested other than an emotional attachment to Nintendo franchises? You have no skin in the game.
It's easy to talk when it's not half your life savings or your livelyhood riding on a game project. I suspect if it was, you'd sober up to market realties pretty quickly and have a much more realistic look at what actually sells in the Nintendo ecosystem. When these realities are present developers have to look what the software ecosystem is for each platform. And clearly on the Wii and DS, most of them passed.
Indie/new developers are fine, in fact today is a kind of rebirth of all types of small developers being able to bring all types of non-conventional experiences to millions of consumers thanks to things like iOS, Steam, XBLA, etc. They're not sitting around waiting for Nintendo to "save them", they're doing just fine.
Case in point: that Trine 2 title you keep hyping up for Wii U ... that developer and that series made its name and got introduced to the broad gaming community through Steam and XBLA/PSN, not any Nintendo platform. There are multitudes of stories like that.
Soundwave said:
What's your point then? If everything's so great and fine and dandy with Nintendo, then naturally there should be developers ripping down Nintendo's door to make content. Of course none of this is Nintendo's fault, nor could it have anything to do with the possibility that Nintendo's increase in userbase largely came from a blue ocean audience that isn't interested in very many core experiences to begin with. It's easy for you to sit there and say "well they should make more games for Nintendo". What exactly do you have invested other than an emotional attachment to Nintendo franchises? You have no skin in the game. It's easy to talk when it's not half your life savings or your livelyhood riding on a game project. I suspect if it was, you'd sober up to market realties pretty quickly and have a much more realistic look at what actually sells in the Nintendo ecosystem. When these realities are present developers have to look what the software ecosystem is for each platform. And clearly on the Wii and DS, most of them passed. Indie/new developers are fine, in fact today is a kind of rebirth of all types of small developers being able to bring all types of non-conventional experiences to millions of consumers thanks to things like iOS, Steam, XBLA, etc. They're not sitting around waiting for Nintendo to "save them", they're doing just fine. |
*sigh*.... The userbase on the Wii is the userbase that Nintendo has always had. They are not a new audience that didn't previously exist. They are the only audience that always existed. Gaming didn't start with what you call "core" gamers its started with what people are trying to call "casuals". Children and adults who bought games on whim. Children have always been the true hardcore gamer becaue they play games to play games.
Good games sold well on the Wii and they cost less to make than they did on the 360/PS3. That is the bottom line. That is the point.
lilbroex said:
*sigh*.... The userbase on the Wii is the userbase that Nintendo has always had. They are not a new audience that didn't previously exist. They are the only audience that always existed. Gaming didn't start with what you call "core" gamers its started with what people are trying to call "casuals". Children and adults who bought games on whim. Children have always been the true hardcore gamer becaue they play games to play games. Good games sold well on the Wii and they cost less to make than they did on the 360/PS3. That is the bottom line. That is the point. |
Oh, Nintendo always had the Wii audience, it just so happened the GameCube sold 23 million versus the 100 million the Wii has.
Right. That makes perfect sense.
Good games sold great on Wii by your metric. So there's no problem then, there should be developers tearing down Nintendo's doors to make content.
I'm sure if it was $10 million dollars of your own money, you wouldn't think twice about jumping into Wii development, even if your game was say -- a violent action game or some other genre of game that has little/no track record of success on the Wii.
| Soundwave said: Oh, Nintendo always had the Wii audience, it just so happened the GameCube sold 23 million versus the 100 million the Wii has. Right. That makes perfect sense. Good games sold great on Wii by your metric. So there's no problem then, there should be developers tearing down Nintendo's doors to make content. I'm sure if it was $10 million dollars of your own money, you wouldn't think twice about jumping into Wii development, even if your game was say -- a violent action game or some other genre of game that has little/no track record of success on the Wii. |
Yep. The GC was the one time where Ninendo had the most powerful console and it cost them almost all of their user base. They learned from that mistake.
Not by my metric. By the metric on the charts and the facts. Good games don't make themselves. They take effort and as I pointed out back on the first page, the devs who comaplained about sales didn't make that effort.
Good Wii games didn't cost anywhere near 10million. The average cost of a Wii game's developement was 2-5 million. It was 10-15 on the PS3/360 and the big name games cost way more than that.(GTA4 cost over 100 million).
You still haven't shown me a "good" pre Wii U 3rd party game that didn't make a profit.
| lilbroex said:There has never been a "break out" huge success story of an indie game developer on the PS3 or 360 either. |
That just isn't true. The Behemoth (Castle Crashers), thatgamecompany (Flower, Journey), Q-Games (PixelJunk), Playdead (Limbo), Titan Studios (Fat Princess), Hello Games (Joe Danger), and RedLynx (Trials) were all huge successes, among many others. Those games have sold millions of copies.
Also, I just noticed that very few of those game mesh with your generalization that PS3/360 consumers only care about violent games.
lilbroex said:
Yep. The GC was the one time where Ninendo had the most powerful console and it cost them almost all of their user base. They learned from that mistake. Not by my metric. By the metric on the charts and the facts. Good games don't make themselves. They take effort and as I pointed out back on the first page, the devs who comaplained about sales didn't make that effort. Good Wii games didn't cost anywhere near 10million. The average cost of a Wii game's developement was 2-5 million. It was 10-15 on the PS3/360 and the big name games cost way more than that.(GTA4 cost over 100 million). You still haven't shown me a "good" pre Wii U 3rd party game that didn't make a profit. |
So people ignored the GameCube because it had decent graphics. Didn't have anything to do with the fact that it looked like Fisher Price lunchbox, didn't have GTA or Final Fantasy or Devil May Cry or a number or other exclusives, lost the FPS auidence to Microsoft without GoldenEye, Mario Sunshine wasn't the Mario 64-2 people wanted, Zelda: Wind Waker wasn't the OoT sequel people wanted, etc. etc.?
The Wii succeeded despite its hardware, not because of it. It succeded based on the hook of a controller that would mimic physical movement to open the door to a social/party gaming experience that required little/no previous game experience of the user, which meant now you could play with mom/grandpa/etc. to usually hilarious results.
That was a spectacular home-run idea for 2006. It was so unlike anything people had seen to that point that the graphics issue didn't matter. It basically created a new sub-set industry of casual/fitness/dance based gaming.
Nintendo wanted to create a new market for Wii and they were success. The question of whether or not a lot of these people moved on to play things like Zelda: Skyward Sword or whether or not this audience helped the developer making a game like Little King Story of House of the Dead Overkill is more dubious.
Sony/MS are a seperate entity as far as I see it. The HD consoles are basically going to sell the same as the PS2/XBox, the only difference is Sony/MS have now split that market more in half. Nintendo basically exited it entirely, but kept their core Nintendo fanbase and then added that new market to it.
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