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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Tea Party summed up!!!

NightDragon83 said:

I'd rather have the President away golfing than at the White House making decisions on how to "fix" things.  We've had zero new net jobs since Clinton's last year in office in 2000, so government policies to "grow the economy" have had the opposite effect they were intended to have.



 

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Kasz216 said:
Mnementh said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Which... i've given several reasons why that wasn't true... which you've passed over twice now...

 

Again Economic policy.  Sexism and Racism laws.  Immigration law and  Various Anti-muslim laws against europe (headscarf ban, minaret ban),  Anti Roma laws.  To name a few.

Sorry, didn't wanted to ignore you.

Economy is basically the same for all. European conservatives and social democrats (our "rights" and "lefts" in the center, we have also far rights and far lefts) and the american Democrats and Republicans all do raise taxes and lower other, all raise government spending in some areas and cut it in others. The difference is mainly which taxes are raised or lowered or which spending is changed, but the impact overall is low. All of them want to keep the current model of economy - and that is a good thing in my book. But on this area are no big difference, although they try to claim that the other side will destroy the economy - bla bla bla.

Sexism and racism - I'm not sure about that. Yes, immigration laws are from time to time in discussion. But the differences are here not big at all between the conservatives and social democrats. I don't know what do you mean with sexism laws. Currently we have a discussion here in germany between two female ministers - both are in the conservative party. One want to introduce a quota for women in management, the other want to introduce a quota for women in management, but keep it voluntary. Remember, both are in the conservative party that has the government at the moment here in germany. So they tend in a direction, that probably would be considered democratic in the USA.

The big anti-muslim debate in germany (and yes we have one) is mainly dominated by nationalistic parties (all very small) and a member of the social democrats (our left party).

Anti-roma-laws are not a political matter here in germany, but in France and eastern europe. I don't know for eastern europe, which part of the political spectrum takes which side. In France had Sarkozy (political right) a strong hand against Roma. And Hollande, the new left president of France? Well, in August multiple Roma-settlements were evicted and hundreds of Roma deportated to Bulgaria and Romania. I don't see a real change from Sarkozy.

As a court here in germany decided, that circumcision of a son of muslim parents was actually bodily injury the members of all big parties (except the left party, that are left-left in our political spectrum) joined to make a law that allows circumcision for religious reasons. Is that left or right politics? I don't know.

So, I don't agree. As a european and especially a german I think the democrats would be counted here from most people as conservative/right party and the republicans as nationalistic/far-right party. This is because they are against abortion, in favor of death penalty (completely banned in the whole european union) and against public health insurance (one of the pillars of social market economy, the main political mantra of germany). Such a party like the american Republicans would therefore be seen as backwards for most people (although surely people exists, that agree with them).

That differentiation between left and right is problematic anyways, as many things cannot be simply said are "left" or "right" politics.


Just like you mentioned about muslims and such with France.  Those are all pretty much French issues I was talking about in specific.  Outside economics, which Germany is much more fiscally conservative then just about any country in the world.  Their version of Monetism, or I should say yours, being heavily influenced by the Frieberg School of economics.  Germany is very anti-stimulus... as you are no dount aware.

If you want another specific Rightwing policy for Germany... Germany has no minium wage.   If your in a union sweet sure you get stuff negotiated for you... if not... the lack of minium wage means even workers need welfare.

Such a system would be seen as too rightwing for even pretty far rightwing republicans to touch.  Only specific diehard hayekians would dare propose such a sitaution.

 

Though back to France.. they tend to be very sexist, very racist, and well, still deporting Romas as we speak still illegally... but the EU just has to tiptoe because it's one of their "Major" members.  All this under their "Leftwing party".

Either party from France would be seen as rightwing due to their refusal to allow people to study racial and sexual problems, there HUGE problems with sexism, and there weird aversion to even thinking of charging the powerful with crimes.



The problem is, you are using specific things europeon states agree on as your basis.  While ignoreing the many rightwing things that some agree on... and some don't.

You're right on many what you say. But at all that makes more clear, that european political parties are not really comparable to american political parties. It's even hard to compare political parties in europe. Or to put it differently: Would democrats or republicans try to compete in elections here in europe with the same issues and programs they have in the US, they would lose by a landslide, as they would be seen as dangerous morons. I think the same would happen, if our parties would try to get elected in the US.

As of monetism - germany has bigger debt than Spain, in relation to the countries GDP. But Spain is seen as a problem, Germany not. So our fiscal politics is obviously not superior, as it brought us more debts.



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Mnementh said:
Kasz216 said:
Mnementh said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Which... i've given several reasons why that wasn't true... which you've passed over twice now...

 

Again Economic policy.  Sexism and Racism laws.  Immigration law and  Various Anti-muslim laws against europe (headscarf ban, minaret ban),  Anti Roma laws.  To name a few.

Sorry, didn't wanted to ignore you.

Economy is basically the same for all. European conservatives and social democrats (our "rights" and "lefts" in the center, we have also far rights and far lefts) and the american Democrats and Republicans all do raise taxes and lower other, all raise government spending in some areas and cut it in others. The difference is mainly which taxes are raised or lowered or which spending is changed, but the impact overall is low. All of them want to keep the current model of economy - and that is a good thing in my book. But on this area are no big difference, although they try to claim that the other side will destroy the economy - bla bla bla.

Sexism and racism - I'm not sure about that. Yes, immigration laws are from time to time in discussion. But the differences are here not big at all between the conservatives and social democrats. I don't know what do you mean with sexism laws. Currently we have a discussion here in germany between two female ministers - both are in the conservative party. One want to introduce a quota for women in management, the other want to introduce a quota for women in management, but keep it voluntary. Remember, both are in the conservative party that has the government at the moment here in germany. So they tend in a direction, that probably would be considered democratic in the USA.

The big anti-muslim debate in germany (and yes we have one) is mainly dominated by nationalistic parties (all very small) and a member of the social democrats (our left party).

Anti-roma-laws are not a political matter here in germany, but in France and eastern europe. I don't know for eastern europe, which part of the political spectrum takes which side. In France had Sarkozy (political right) a strong hand against Roma. And Hollande, the new left president of France? Well, in August multiple Roma-settlements were evicted and hundreds of Roma deportated to Bulgaria and Romania. I don't see a real change from Sarkozy.

As a court here in germany decided, that circumcision of a son of muslim parents was actually bodily injury the members of all big parties (except the left party, that are left-left in our political spectrum) joined to make a law that allows circumcision for religious reasons. Is that left or right politics? I don't know.

So, I don't agree. As a european and especially a german I think the democrats would be counted here from most people as conservative/right party and the republicans as nationalistic/far-right party. This is because they are against abortion, in favor of death penalty (completely banned in the whole european union) and against public health insurance (one of the pillars of social market economy, the main political mantra of germany). Such a party like the american Republicans would therefore be seen as backwards for most people (although surely people exists, that agree with them).

That differentiation between left and right is problematic anyways, as many things cannot be simply said are "left" or "right" politics.


Just like you mentioned about muslims and such with France.  Those are all pretty much French issues I was talking about in specific.  Outside economics, which Germany is much more fiscally conservative then just about any country in the world.  Their version of Monetism, or I should say yours, being heavily influenced by the Frieberg School of economics.  Germany is very anti-stimulus... as you are no dount aware.

If you want another specific Rightwing policy for Germany... Germany has no minium wage.   If your in a union sweet sure you get stuff negotiated for you... if not... the lack of minium wage means even workers need welfare.

Such a system would be seen as too rightwing for even pretty far rightwing republicans to touch.  Only specific diehard hayekians would dare propose such a sitaution.

 

Though back to France.. they tend to be very sexist, very racist, and well, still deporting Romas as we speak still illegally... but the EU just has to tiptoe because it's one of their "Major" members.  All this under their "Leftwing party".

Either party from France would be seen as rightwing due to their refusal to allow people to study racial and sexual problems, there HUGE problems with sexism, and there weird aversion to even thinking of charging the powerful with crimes.



The problem is, you are using specific things europeon states agree on as your basis.  While ignoreing the many rightwing things that some agree on... and some don't.

You're right on many what you say. But at all that makes more clear, that european political parties are not really comparable to american political parties. It's even hard to compare political parties in europe. Or to put it differently: Would democrats or republicans try to compete in elections here in europe with the same issues and programs they have in the US, they would lose by a landslide, as they would be seen as dangerous morons. I think the same would happen, if our parties would try to get elected in the US.

As of monetism - germany has bigger debt than Spain, in relation to the countries GDP. But Spain is seen as a problem, Germany not. So our fiscal politics is obviously not superior, as it brought us more debts.

Actually, after assuming the banks debt i'm pretty sure Spain's debt is higher now.

Though yeah I wouldn't say they were comprable, but that doesn't mean the US is more rightwing.    Your average politician from europe would seem pretty toxic on a number of issues both seen as too conservative and too liberal.



Kasz216 said:

Actually, after assuming the banks debt i'm pretty sure Spain's debt is higher now.

Though yeah I wouldn't say they were comprable, but that doesn't mean the US is more rightwing.    Your average politician from europe would seem pretty toxic on a number of issues both seen as too conservative and too liberal.

As I said, the political systems are not really comparable.

To the debt: according to german Wikipedia Spain had 2011 a overall debt of 68.5% of it's GDP. Germany had 81.2%. Also Spain had 15,715€ per inhabitant, germany 25,339€. I don't think it shifts too much in 2012.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsschulden



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sperrico87 said:
NightDragon83 said:

I'd rather have the President away golfing than at the White House making decisions on how to "fix" things.  We've had zero new net jobs since Clinton's last year in office in 2000, so government policies to "grow the economy" have had the opposite effect they were intended to have.

Big concern had been that private sector hiring nosedived after 2000.  There was a bunch of government hiring post-2000, but with austerity abounding, there have been layoffs.



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Mnementh said:

Kasz216 said:

 Actually, after assuming the banks debt i'm pretty sure Spain's debt is higher now.

Though yeah I wouldn't say they were comprable, but that doesn't mean the US is more rightwing.    Your average politician from europe would seem pretty toxic on a number of issues both seen as too conservative and too liberal.

As I said, the political systems are not really comparable.

To the debt: according to german Wikipedia Spain had 2011 a overall debt of 68.5% of it's GDP. Germany had 81.2%. Also Spain had 15,715€ per inhabitant, germany 25,339€. I don't think it shifts too much in 2012.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsschulden

And according to Wikipedia Argentina's Inflation rate is below 10%.

The reality is quite different from offically reported however.

Though Spain's official Debt to GDP is expceted to  reach 90% by the end of the year.



Kasz216 said:
Mnementh said:

Kasz216 said:

 Actually, after assuming the banks debt i'm pretty sure Spain's debt is higher now.

Though yeah I wouldn't say they were comprable, but that doesn't mean the US is more rightwing.    Your average politician from europe would seem pretty toxic on a number of issues both seen as too conservative and too liberal.

As I said, the political systems are not really comparable.

To the debt: according to german Wikipedia Spain had 2011 a overall debt of 68.5% of it's GDP. Germany had 81.2%. Also Spain had 15,715€ per inhabitant, germany 25,339€. I don't think it shifts too much in 2012.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsschulden

And according to Wikipedia Argentina's Inflation rate is below 10%.

The reality is quite different from offically reported however.

Though Spain's official Debt to GDP is expceted to  reach 90% by the end of the year.

I have a source for my numbers, do you have one for your claim? But even if Spain has 90% debt to GDP, that is not too far away from Germany. Also some other countries also not named usually as a problem have more: Belgium 98%, United Kingdoms 85.7%, USA 110% and Japan 241%. Yes the same Japan that is seen as a safe heaven in the financial crisis. The reason for problems is not absolute debt alone.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

10 years greatest game event!

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Mnementh said:
Kasz216 said:
Mnementh said:

Kasz216 said:

 Actually, after assuming the banks debt i'm pretty sure Spain's debt is higher now.

Though yeah I wouldn't say they were comprable, but that doesn't mean the US is more rightwing.    Your average politician from europe would seem pretty toxic on a number of issues both seen as too conservative and too liberal.

As I said, the political systems are not really comparable.

To the debt: according to german Wikipedia Spain had 2011 a overall debt of 68.5% of it's GDP. Germany had 81.2%. Also Spain had 15,715€ per inhabitant, germany 25,339€. I don't think it shifts too much in 2012.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsschulden

And according to Wikipedia Argentina's Inflation rate is below 10%.

The reality is quite different from offically reported however.

Though Spain's official Debt to GDP is expceted to  reach 90% by the end of the year.

I have a source for my numbers, do you have one for your claim? But even if Spain has 90% debt to GDP, that is not too far away from Germany. Also some other countries also not named usually as a problem have more: Belgium 98%, United Kingdoms 85.7%, USA 110% and Japan 241%. Yes the same Japan that is seen as a safe heaven in the financial crisis. The reason for problems is not absolute debt alone.

Like I said... Spain's official Debt only counts government Debt.  They've also taken on the stimulus funds and essentially their bank debt as well.  Since they've been forced to agree to back those funds and pay back the stimulus funds, you'd have to officially add on the debt of the banks, which is roughly 100% to GDP.

http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/11855-total-debt-to-gdp.html#axzz25ee2Z7dO

Germany doesn't, because Germany's banks aren't failing.

Additionally Spain's banks were the only ones buying Spain's bonds.

Also, absolute debt would just mean the hard number of debt.  Like 5 trillion or whatever, non related to GDP.

Really the issue isn't so much that debt isn't the issue.  It's that Debt to GDP is a poor indicator of it.

 

I mean, GDP =

Consumptipon + Investment + Government Spending + (Net Exports.)


Really investment is the only GDP factor that particularly matters and government spending, but government spending actually is better when it goes down.

 

A better ratio would be          Debt+Goverment Spelding /Investment.

Japan has the second largest debt market in the world they don't have any issues because the Japanese people LOVE to buy government bonds.  Unlike Spain, who was only relying on banks to buy their bonds... the Japanese see huge domestic demand from the common people.  

Domestic demand is important because you usally get a better deal... things getting real dicey when you have to go outside the country.

 

That said, Germany is in a special class, with the USA and a few other countries, in which either ratio isn't quite as relevent because they're still seen as relativly safe all considered.

It's a bit of an unflattering and macabre saying but...  Rat's always do head for the highground of a sinking ship.



Kasz216 said:
Mnementh said:
Kasz216 said:
Mnementh said:

Kasz216 said:

 Actually, after assuming the banks debt i'm pretty sure Spain's debt is higher now.

Though yeah I wouldn't say they were comprable, but that doesn't mean the US is more rightwing.    Your average politician from europe would seem pretty toxic on a number of issues both seen as too conservative and too liberal.

As I said, the political systems are not really comparable.

To the debt: according to german Wikipedia Spain had 2011 a overall debt of 68.5% of it's GDP. Germany had 81.2%. Also Spain had 15,715€ per inhabitant, germany 25,339€. I don't think it shifts too much in 2012.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsschulden

And according to Wikipedia Argentina's Inflation rate is below 10%.

The reality is quite different from offically reported however.

Though Spain's official Debt to GDP is expceted to  reach 90% by the end of the year.

I have a source for my numbers, do you have one for your claim? But even if Spain has 90% debt to GDP, that is not too far away from Germany. Also some other countries also not named usually as a problem have more: Belgium 98%, United Kingdoms 85.7%, USA 110% and Japan 241%. Yes the same Japan that is seen as a safe heaven in the financial crisis. The reason for problems is not absolute debt alone.

Like I said... Spain's official Debt only counts government Debt.  They've also taken on the stimulus funds and essentially their bank debt as well.  Since they've been forced to agree to back those funds and pay back the stimulus funds, you'd have to officially add on the debt of the banks, which is roughly 100% to GDP.

http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/11855-total-debt-to-gdp.html#axzz25ee2Z7dO

Germany doesn't, because Germany's banks aren't failing.

Additionally Spain's banks were the only ones buying Spain's bonds.

Also, absolute debt would just mean the hard number of debt.  Like 5 trillion or whatever, non related to GDP.

Really the issue isn't so much that debt isn't the issue.  It's that Debt to GDP is a poor indicator of it.

 

I mean, GDP =

Consumptipon + Investment + Government Spending + (Net Exports.)


Really investment is the only GDP factor that particularly matters and government spending, but government spending actually is better when it goes down.

 

A better ratio would be          Debt+Goverment Spelding /Investment.

Japan has the second largest debt market in the world they don't have any issues because the Japanese people LOVE to buy government bonds.  Unlike Spain, who was only relying on banks to buy their bonds... the Japanese see huge domestic demand from the common people.

Domestic demand is important because you usally get a better deal... things getting real dicey when you have to go outside the country.

 

That said, Germany is in a special class, with the USA and a few other countries, in which either ratio isn't quite as relevent because they're still seen as relativly safe all considered.

It's a bit of an unflattering and macabre saying but...  Rat's always do head for the highground of a sinking ship.

Basically you are saying, that the spanish government worked financially mediocre (better than german government) but private sector (banks) fucked up big time. And the taxpayer has to pay for the private fuckup. Does Spains government now gets the money back from the banks, if they turn to black numbers again?

Anyways, you agree that total debt alone is not a good measurement of the financial stability of a country.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

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10 years greatest game event!

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Mnementh said:
Kasz216 said:
Mnementh said:
Kasz216 said:
Mnementh said:

Kasz216 said:

 

Like I said... Spain's official Debt only counts government Debt.  They've also taken on the stimulus funds and essentially their bank debt as well.  Since they've been forced to agree to back those funds and pay back the stimulus funds, you'd have to officially add on the debt of the banks, which is roughly 100% to GDP.

http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/11855-total-debt-to-gdp.html#axzz25ee2Z7dO

Germany doesn't, because Germany's banks aren't failing.

Additionally Spain's banks were the only ones buying Spain's bonds.

Also, absolute debt would just mean the hard number of debt.  Like 5 trillion or whatever, non related to GDP.

Really the issue isn't so much that debt isn't the issue.  It's that Debt to GDP is a poor indicator of it.

 

I mean, GDP =

Consumptipon + Investment + Government Spending + (Net Exports.)


Really investment is the only GDP factor that particularly matters and government spending, but government spending actually is better when it goes down.

 

A better ratio would be          Debt+Goverment Spelding /Investment.

Japan has the second largest debt market in the world they don't have any issues because the Japanese people LOVE to buy government bonds.  Unlike Spain, who was only relying on banks to buy their bonds... the Japanese see huge domestic demand from the common people.

Domestic demand is important because you usally get a better deal... things getting real dicey when you have to go outside the country.

 

That said, Germany is in a special class, with the USA and a few other countries, in which either ratio isn't quite as relevent because they're still seen as relativly safe all considered.

It's a bit of an unflattering and macabre saying but...  Rat's always do head for the highground of a sinking ship.

Basically you are saying, that the spanish government worked financially mediocre (better than german government) but private sector (banks) fucked up big time. And the taxpayer has to pay for the private fuckup. Does Spains government now gets the money back from the banks, if they turn to black numbers again?

Anyways, you agree that total debt alone is not a good measurement of the financial stability of a country.

Not quite.

The Banking system failing was actually due to government intervention.

In 2008, some banks were going to fail... because they made mistakes.

To combat this, the Spanish government created an official who would merge together bad banks with banks that were doing good with some implicit promises of help if problems continued.

All this did was weaken the bigger successful banks as they were merged with tinier banks that had made poor loans.

In attempting to spread out the posion so nobody got hurt.  Everybody got sick.

Which was stupid.  Considering that Spain relied on these banks disproprotionatly to buy it's bonds.

 

Worth noting too... these are mostly the non-profit Cajas.