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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Tea Party summed up!!!

Mnementh said:
killerzX said:
Kasz216 said:
JimmyDanger said:
To an outsider - I don't live in your country, but having ample access to Fox News, CNN etc - it seems the vitriol, rhetoric fuelled Republican machine is in full force like never before.

From their anti abortion (no exceptions) platform, to their opposition to government subsidised healthcare (I believe the US is the only developed Western "power" to lack some form of this) - it looks like a campaign fuelled with piss and vinegar, and lacking in compassion, or longterm worldview.

It's interesting to see some passionate debate among those of you who'll be voting this November.

While most of the worlds (developed Western Nations) moderate right wingers basically equate to your Democrats - or centre/moderate left - most developed Western Nations don't really have an equivalent to your far right wing Republican party - except on the fringes of public opinion.

So it's interesting to watch as an outsider/non US citizen.

Please carry on, and disregard any opinion (or assessment of public perception) that I may have presented as irrelevant. Because in the scheme of things - to someone not voting in your presidential elections - it is!


That is totally a myth.  There is plenty of europeon policy that is far right of the US Republican Party.  It's just the dynamics are different, and people tned to focus on the few big conservative issues.  Like healthcare policy.

If you don't believe me... look at the GFC... and how the USA handles that, compaired to how Europe is handling the Europeon Debt Crisis.

In the US it's money money printed everywhere and artificially lowered rates.   While the Europeons have been pushing austerity measures that would make most republicans blush.  Meanwhile, in the US QE3 is expected by the end of the year.  Because we aren't growing enough... let alone europe's lack of fiscal action over actual regression in GDP.

Things like immigration law... a lot of the anti-muislim laws, this stuff would NEVER be passed, and people wouldn't even think to ask for it.

and to suggest the left in europe are somehow much further left than our democrats is laughable.

you would be hard pressed to find a leftist policy that europe supports that the dems dont.

Are you kidding me? Our european conservatives are more left than democrats in the US.

Examples, of what we have and is not attacked by the conservatives: public health insurance, no death penalty, abortions are allowed, people aren't allowed to own weapons.

i dont disagree?

i said the left in Europe arent anymore left the the American left, not that the European right are just as right as US right



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Mnementh said:
killerzX said:
Kasz216 said:
JimmyDanger said:
To an outsider - I don't live in your country, but having ample access to Fox News, CNN etc - it seems the vitriol, rhetoric fuelled Republican machine is in full force like never before.

From their anti abortion (no exceptions) platform, to their opposition to government subsidised healthcare (I believe the US is the only developed Western "power" to lack some form of this) - it looks like a campaign fuelled with piss and vinegar, and lacking in compassion, or longterm worldview.

It's interesting to see some passionate debate among those of you who'll be voting this November.

While most of the worlds (developed Western Nations) moderate right wingers basically equate to your Democrats - or centre/moderate left - most developed Western Nations don't really have an equivalent to your far right wing Republican party - except on the fringes of public opinion.

So it's interesting to watch as an outsider/non US citizen.

Please carry on, and disregard any opinion (or assessment of public perception) that I may have presented as irrelevant. Because in the scheme of things - to someone not voting in your presidential elections - it is!


That is totally a myth.  There is plenty of europeon policy that is far right of the US Republican Party.  It's just the dynamics are different, and people tned to focus on the few big conservative issues.  Like healthcare policy.

If you don't believe me... look at the GFC... and how the USA handles that, compaired to how Europe is handling the Europeon Debt Crisis.

In the US it's money money printed everywhere and artificially lowered rates.   While the Europeons have been pushing austerity measures that would make most republicans blush.  Meanwhile, in the US QE3 is expected by the end of the year.  Because we aren't growing enough... let alone europe's lack of fiscal action over actual regression in GDP.

Things like immigration law... a lot of the anti-muislim laws, this stuff would NEVER be passed, and people wouldn't even think to ask for it.

and to suggest the left in europe are somehow much further left than our democrats is laughable.

you would be hard pressed to find a leftist policy that europe supports that the dems dont.

Are you kidding me? Our european conservatives are more left than democrats in the US.

Examples, of what we have and is not attacked by the conservatives: public health insurance, no death penalty, abortions are allowed, people aren't allowed to own weapons.

Uh... abortions are allowed here... and people not being to own weapons is a Right Wing trait of the democratic party and of europe.  Well, unless you want to argue that authortarinism now belongs on the left.

Like i said though... economic policy is one good factor.  Others involve sexism and racism with most of europe.  Immigration law.  Various Anti-muslim laws against europe (headscarf ban, minaret ban),  Anti Roma laws.  Religious intolerance.

Someone like Le Pen in France would never get that kind of vote in the US.  Near 20%?



killerzX said:
Mnementh said:

Are you kidding me? Our european conservatives are more left than democrats in the US.

Examples, of what we have and is not attacked by the conservatives: public health insurance, no death penalty, abortions are allowed, people aren't allowed to own weapons.

i dont disagree?

i said the left in Europe arent anymore left the the American left, not that the European right are just as right as US right

Did you read what I wrote? I said our conservatives (rights) are at least as left as the Democrats in the US. The Republicans in the US with their policies (death penalty, disallowing abortions, rights to own a weapon) find only a match in nationalistic and nazi-parties here in europe.



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Mnementh said:
killerzX said:
Mnementh said:
 

Are you kidding me? Our european conservatives are more left than democrats in the US.

Examples, of what we have and is not attacked by the conservatives: public health insurance, no death penalty, abortions are allowed, people aren't allowed to own weapons.

i dont disagree?

i said the left in Europe arent anymore left the the American left, not that the European right are just as right as US right

Did you read what I wrote? I said our conservatives (rights) are at least as left as the Democrats in the US. The Republicans in the US with their policies (death penalty, disallowing abortions, rights to own a weapon) find only a match in nationalistic and nazi-parties here in europe.

Which... i've given several reasons why that wasn't true... which you've passed over twice now... 

 

Again Economic policy.  Sexism and Racism laws.  Immigration law and  Various Anti-muslim laws against europe (headscarf ban, minaret ban),  Anti Roma laws.  To name a few.



Mnementh said:
killerzX said:
Mnementh said:
 

Are you kidding me? Our european conservatives are more left than democrats in the US.

Examples, of what we have and is not attacked by the conservatives: public health insurance, no death penalty, abortions are allowed, people aren't allowed to own weapons.

i dont disagree?

i said the left in Europe arent anymore left the the American left, not that the European right are just as right as US right

Did you read what I wrote? I said our conservatives (rights) are at least as left as the Democrats in the US. The Republicans in the US with their policies (death penalty, disallowing abortions, rights to own a weapon) find only a match in nationalistic and nazi-parties here in europe.

did you read what i wrote. the democrats here are just as left as your left.

anyway,  the nazi's are for total total government control of nearly everything. they are for abortions, and historically have banned weapons.

im not sure what your are exactly trying to claim, but its not at all accurate.



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clint is a lefty isn't he so i assume he is against the tea party stuff

i do enjoy elections of the usa,i'm still interested to see if steve jobs saying obama is a one term president comes true

i wonder if american politics will change from rep/dem as white americans become less powerful and influential in the usa due to being outnumbered it won't happen overnight but it shouldn't be far away,i wonder if there will be 3 or 4 even candidates as the rifts in politics,race and culture split and drift further apart which they no doubt will



                                                                                                                                        Above & Beyond

   

killerzX said:
Mnementh said:
killerzX said:
Mnementh said:
 

Are you kidding me? Our european conservatives are more left than democrats in the US.

Examples, of what we have and is not attacked by the conservatives: public health insurance, no death penalty, abortions are allowed, people aren't allowed to own weapons.

i dont disagree?

i said the left in Europe arent anymore left the the American left, not that the European right are just as right as US right

Did you read what I wrote? I said our conservatives (rights) are at least as left as the Democrats in the US. The Republicans in the US with their policies (death penalty, disallowing abortions, rights to own a weapon) find only a match in nationalistic and nazi-parties here in europe.

did you read what i wrote. the democrats here are just as left as your left.

anyway,  the nazi's are for total total government control of nearly everything. they are for abortions, and historically have banned weapons.

im not sure what your are exactly trying to claim, but its not at all accurate.

Post any information that shows that Nazis are for abortion.  Well, at least something superior to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany

In Nazi Germany, the penalties for abortion were increased again. From 1943, the provision of abortion to "Aryan" women was threatened with the death penalty.[1][2] On the other hand, abortion was at times forced upon members of parts of society that were considered undesirable.

After World War II, abortion remained broadly illegal in both East Germany and West Germany, with West Germany retaining the legal situation of 1927 while East Germany passed a slightly more encompassing set of exceptions in 1950. The legal requirements in the West were extremely strict, and often led women to seek abortions elsewhere, particularly in the Netherlands.

Apparently abortion got outlawed when the Nazi party got into power.

But, one can maybe point to some other stuff.  I am pretty sure the Nazis aren't pro-choice.  Heck, I doubt totalitarian ideologies are much for anything on a personal choice level, so you are possibly going to find Nazi literature connecting abortion and eugenics.  



richardhutnik said:
killerzX said:
Mnementh said:
killerzX said:
Mnementh said:
 

Are you kidding me? Our european conservatives are more left than democrats in the US.

Examples, of what we have and is not attacked by the conservatives: public health insurance, no death penalty, abortions are allowed, people aren't allowed to own weapons.

i dont disagree?

i said the left in Europe arent anymore left the the American left, not that the European right are just as right as US right

Did you read what I wrote? I said our conservatives (rights) are at least as left as the Democrats in the US. The Republicans in the US with their policies (death penalty, disallowing abortions, rights to own a weapon) find only a match in nationalistic and nazi-parties here in europe.

did you read what i wrote. the democrats here are just as left as your left.

anyway,  the nazi's are for total total government control of nearly everything. they are for abortions, and historically have banned weapons.

im not sure what your are exactly trying to claim, but its not at all accurate.

Post any information that shows that Nazis are for abortion.  Well, at least something superior to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany

In Nazi Germany, the penalties for abortion were increased again. From 1943, the provision of abortion to "Aryan" women was threatened with the death penalty.[1][2] On the other hand, abortion was at times forced upon members of parts of society that were considered undesirable.

 

After World War II, abortion remained broadly illegal in both East Germany and West Germany, with West Germany retaining the legal situation of 1927 while East Germany passed a slightly more encompassing set of exceptions in 1950. The legal requirements in the West were extremely strict, and often led women to seek abortions elsewhere, particularly in the Netherlands.

 

 

Apparently abortion got outlawed when the Nazi party got into power.

 

But, one can maybe point to some other stuff.  I am pretty sure the Nazis aren't pro-choice.  Heck, I doubt totalitarian ideologies are much for anything on a personal choice level, so you are possibly going to find Nazi literature connecting abortion and eugenics.  

You missed the second part where abortion was forced on undesireable people.

Essentially Nazi Germany wanted plenty of germans and wanted to get rid of non-aryans.

So, half for abortion/ half against really.

They wanted to have a bunch of white aryan orphans to raise to be loyal to them.

Much how Napoleon in Animal Farm took over the dog's babies.



Kasz216 said:
 

Which... i've given several reasons why that wasn't true... which you've passed over twice now...

 

Again Economic policy.  Sexism and Racism laws.  Immigration law and  Various Anti-muslim laws against europe (headscarf ban, minaret ban),  Anti Roma laws.  To name a few.

Sorry, didn't wanted to ignore you.

Economy is basically the same for all. European conservatives and social democrats (our "rights" and "lefts" in the center, we have also far rights and far lefts) and the american Democrats and Republicans all do raise taxes and lower other, all raise government spending in some areas and cut it in others. The difference is mainly which taxes are raised or lowered or which spending is changed, but the impact overall is low. All of them want to keep the current model of economy - and that is a good thing in my book. But on this area are no big difference, although they try to claim that the other side will destroy the economy - bla bla bla.

Sexism and racism - I'm not sure about that. Yes, immigration laws are from time to time in discussion. But the differences are here not big at all between the conservatives and social democrats. I don't know what do you mean with sexism laws. Currently we have a discussion here in germany between two female ministers - both are in the conservative party. One want to introduce a quota for women in management, the other want to introduce a quota for women in management, but keep it voluntary. Remember, both are in the conservative party that has the government at the moment here in germany. So they tend in a direction, that probably would be considered democratic in the USA.

The big anti-muslim debate in germany (and yes we have one) is mainly dominated by nationalistic parties (all very small) and a member of the social democrats (our left party).

Anti-roma-laws are not a political matter here in germany, but in France and eastern europe. I don't know for eastern europe, which part of the political spectrum takes which side. In France had Sarkozy (political right) a strong hand against Roma. And Hollande, the new left president of France? Well, in August multiple Roma-settlements were evicted and hundreds of Roma deportated to Bulgaria and Romania. I don't see a real change from Sarkozy.

As a court here in germany decided, that circumcision of a son of muslim parents was actually bodily injury the members of all big parties (except the left party, that are left-left in our political spectrum) joined to make a law that allows circumcision for religious reasons. Is that left or right politics? I don't know.

So, I don't agree. As a european and especially a german I think the democrats would be counted here from most people as conservative/right party and the republicans as nationalistic/far-right party. This is because they are against abortion, in favor of death penalty (completely banned in the whole european union) and against public health insurance (one of the pillars of social market economy, the main political mantra of germany). Such a party like the american Republicans would therefore be seen as backwards for most people (although surely people exists, that agree with them).

That differentiation between left and right is problematic anyways, as many things cannot be simply said are "left" or "right" politics.



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Mnementh said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Which... i've given several reasons why that wasn't true... which you've passed over twice now...

 

Again Economic policy.  Sexism and Racism laws.  Immigration law and  Various Anti-muslim laws against europe (headscarf ban, minaret ban),  Anti Roma laws.  To name a few.

Sorry, didn't wanted to ignore you.

Economy is basically the same for all. European conservatives and social democrats (our "rights" and "lefts" in the center, we have also far rights and far lefts) and the american Democrats and Republicans all do raise taxes and lower other, all raise government spending in some areas and cut it in others. The difference is mainly which taxes are raised or lowered or which spending is changed, but the impact overall is low. All of them want to keep the current model of economy - and that is a good thing in my book. But on this area are no big difference, although they try to claim that the other side will destroy the economy - bla bla bla.

Sexism and racism - I'm not sure about that. Yes, immigration laws are from time to time in discussion. But the differences are here not big at all between the conservatives and social democrats. I don't know what do you mean with sexism laws. Currently we have a discussion here in germany between two female ministers - both are in the conservative party. One want to introduce a quota for women in management, the other want to introduce a quota for women in management, but keep it voluntary. Remember, both are in the conservative party that has the government at the moment here in germany. So they tend in a direction, that probably would be considered democratic in the USA.

The big anti-muslim debate in germany (and yes we have one) is mainly dominated by nationalistic parties (all very small) and a member of the social democrats (our left party).

Anti-roma-laws are not a political matter here in germany, but in France and eastern europe. I don't know for eastern europe, which part of the political spectrum takes which side. In France had Sarkozy (political right) a strong hand against Roma. And Hollande, the new left president of France? Well, in August multiple Roma-settlements were evicted and hundreds of Roma deportated to Bulgaria and Romania. I don't see a real change from Sarkozy.

As a court here in germany decided, that circumcision of a son of muslim parents was actually bodily injury the members of all big parties (except the left party, that are left-left in our political spectrum) joined to make a law that allows circumcision for religious reasons. Is that left or right politics? I don't know.

So, I don't agree. As a european and especially a german I think the democrats would be counted here from most people as conservative/right party and the republicans as nationalistic/far-right party. This is because they are against abortion, in favor of death penalty (completely banned in the whole european union) and against public health insurance (one of the pillars of social market economy, the main political mantra of germany). Such a party like the american Republicans would therefore be seen as backwards for most people (although surely people exists, that agree with them).

That differentiation between left and right is problematic anyways, as many things cannot be simply said are "left" or "right" politics.


Just like you mentioned about muslims and such with France.  Those are all pretty much French issues I was talking about in specific.  Outside economics, which Germany is much more fiscally conservative then just about any country in the world.  Their version of Monetism, or I should say yours, being heavily influenced by the Frieberg School of economics.  Germany is very anti-stimulus... as you are no dount aware.

If you want another specific Rightwing policy for Germany... Germany has no minium wage.   If your in a union sweet sure you get stuff negotiated for you... if not... the lack of minium wage means even workers need welfare.

Such a system would be seen as too rightwing for even pretty far rightwing republicans to touch.  Only specific diehard hayekians would dare propose such a sitaution.

 

Though back to France.. they tend to be very sexist, very racist, and well, still deporting Romas as we speak still illegally... but the EU just has to tiptoe because it's one of their "Major" members.  All this under their "Leftwing party".

Either party from France would be seen as rightwing due to their refusal to allow people to study racial and sexual problems, there HUGE problems with sexism, and there weird aversion to even thinking of charging the powerful with crimes.



The problem is, you are using specific things europeon states agree on as your basis.  While ignoreing the many rightwing things that some agree on... and some don't.