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Forums - Nintendo - NSMB2 is an exceptional game in the eyes of reviewers

The bottom line is that NSMB2 is far better than NSMB DS and that is all that counts for me.

They shouldve changed the map to a single big world map and called the game New Super Mario World and I guarantee you this same game would sit at 85+ Metascore right now.



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the_dengle said:
noname2200 said:

Do reviewers really care much for LBP? I thought the reviewer consensus on that one was largely indifference, at least as a platformer. I don't think Kirby was particularly shined on either, at least not for anything beyond its art style. I admit, my perception could be wrong though.

I see where you're coming from regarding how 2D platformers are more common now than 3D ones (although I'd hardly label them as "a dime a dozen," especially when the bulk of them are more puzzle than platformer). But I don't put as much weight in that, since other games in crowded genres continue to get high plaudits. This generation has been saturated with shooters, WRPGs, brawlers, and sandbox games, yet this doesn't stop reviewers from slapping 90+ scores on Uncharted/Gears/God/Assasin's/Mass Effect/whatever 3+. Perhaps the evolutions within those titles elude me, since I admit I'm not a huge fan of those genres,* but the changes between UC 1 to 3, or Gears 1 to 3, for example, don't strike me as anything more than minor tweaks.

@ the bolded, LBP has a 95 metascore; LBP 2, a 91; LBP for PSP, 87. Although Kirby's Return is sitting at 77, Epic Yarn and Canvas Curse are both at 86. Mass Attack has an 83. All of those games (excepting Return to Dreamland) are better than New Super 2, judging by their Metascores.

As for the rest, I think you missed what I was saying a bit, which is understandable because I'm bad at words. I'm saying the reason it's relatively "okay" that the Gears of War series hasn't changed much from 1 to 3 is because the third-person shooter genre as a whole hasn't changed much between those games. Likewise, there haven't been many amazing first-person shooters since Modern Warfare that completely reinvented the genre (the way Half-Life and Halo did before then). The series doesn't appear as stagnant as it is because there isn't anything (or much) not stagnant in the same genre to compare it to. So much has happened in the 2D platformer genre in the past 6 years that many critics feel the New Super Mario Bros. formula is dated. It's old-fashioned, it's retro. Imagine if Half-Life 2 hadn't been like Half-Life 2, and had just played like an expansion pack for the original Half-Life, and you're close.

Can you tell me what evolution has happened in the 2D platformer genre in these past 6 years then? I wasn't aware the genre has developed even further, is it: Story? Art style? Puzzles? Bite-sized levels? User-created levels?



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VicViper said:
d21lewis said:


Just like how the Gameboy games went:  Mario Land, Mario Land 2, Mario Land 3: Wario Land, Wario Land 2

or

The advance games went:  Super Mario Advance (SMB2), Super Mario Advance 2 (Super Mario World), Super Mario Advance 3 (Yoshi's Island), Super Mario Advance 4 (Super Mario Bros 3).

 

Nintendo is batshit crazy when it comes to stuff like that.  Then again, Call of Duty did the same thing with CoD1, CoD2, CoD 3, Cod MW, CoD MW2, CoD MoW3, and somewhere in the middle of all of that we got Big Red One, World at War, and Black Ops.  They're all still Call of Duty but keeping track is a chore.

I just think all those should be considered. People wanting drastic changes like Yoshi's Island for example, should look into Wario World or Super Princess Peach or even play the sequels to YI - quite different from one another. And people saying Nintendo used to change 2D Mario all the time, should look at Mario 2.

And most importantly, change usually is a meaning for complexity too. Changing too much, the game becomes either: unrecognizable or extra complex (less appealling to the masses)

Mario was more or less victim of those same points. It's just a spiral, really. People wanted change in megaman for example, it came, people cried in joy! Then they continued the changing, people complained. Then Megaman 9 came and people holded hands and started to sing the Kumba-iê together again. Megaman 10 was acceptable, but 11? Oh, 11 NEEDS changing ... again!

Do you mean the Japanese Mario 2 (aka lost levels) or the Doki Doki Mario 2? 

And yeah, I agree with you.  There were plenty of Mario alternatives for people looking for variations on the Mario formula.  I guess Nintendo knows that Mario has a particular brand of loyalty amongst fans.  If Super Princess Peach had starred Mario, I think it would have done much better in sales.  It was a pretty solid game but, withouth Mario on the box, many people didn't even give it a second look. 

One of the few series that almost always gets it right is Metroid.  I guess Grand Theft Auto and Castlevania do a good job of this, too (for the most part).  As for the last part of your post--I openly admit that we have no idea what we want.  When companies start listening to us and changing things to fit our demands, that's when things start getting generic and bland.  I think NSMB2 is barely outside of that window but I hope Nintendo goes their own way with the next game.  Make the game they want to make instead of making the game they think we want them to make.  It usually works out better for everybody when they don't follow some check list of demands.



Chandler said:
The bottom line is that NSMB2 is far better than NSMB DS and that is all that counts for me.

They shouldve changed the map to a single big world map and called the game New Super Mario World and I guarantee you this same game would sit at 85+ Metascore right now.


The sad thing is that I think you're 100% correct.



d21lewis said:

Do you mean the Japanese Mario 2 (aka lost levels) or the Doki Doki Mario 2? 

And yeah, I agree with you.  There were plenty of Mario alternatives for people looking for variations on the Mario formula.  I guess Nintendo knows that Mario has a particular brand of loyalty amongst fans.  If Super Princess Peach had starred Mario, I think it would have done much better in sales.  It was a pretty solid game but, withouth Mario on the box, many people didn't even give it a second look. 

One of the few series that almost always gets it right is Metroid.  I guess Grand Theft Auto and Castlevania do a good job of this, too (for the most part).  As for the last part of your post--I openly admit that we have no idea what we want.  When companies start listening to us and changing things to fit our demands, that's when things start getting generic and bland.  I think NSMB2 is barely outside of that window but I hope Nintendo goes their own way with the next game.  Make the game they want to make instead of making the game they think we want them to make.  It usually works out better for everybody when they don't follow some check list of demands.


One "proof" of what I'm saying (change is cyclical) is that if you look at the changes people want, most of the times they are throwbacks: world map, spin jump, yoshi, etc...

I do love Metroid too - the 2D ones -I suck at console FPSs, the DS was allright but just because of the finger stylus  - but for example, I didn't liked fusion that much. Then Zero Mission came with gameplay more "primitive" than even Super Metroid and bang - struck me down like lightining.

Also, I just really dislike when people say NSMB was not innovative. Just the ability to kick walls (in 2D) is more definitive than 47 world maps and 345 yoshis + lots of new enemies and stage dynamics (known as gimmicks) than ever. I've still to play NSMB2, but if they just continue this trend it's fine. More than fine.

Nintendo is just playing safe with the visuals. In a way it's understandable. Mario as a brand is more uniform now. His 3D model for example is now the same in all the games as it is in your pajamas and in my cereals. Toad, Peach, bowser, etc... too. Then, if you see sales, usually changing too much means less sales, and nintendo knows 3DS is in a very delicate state right now to risk something as huge as mario. Wii U too is in a pretty delicate state.



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Reviewers would rather have 3D Mario than 2D Mario. Consumers would rather have 2D Mario than 3D Mario. There's a huge disconnect between the establishment press and the ordinary consumer. NSMB2 got panned for not being another SM3DL, nevermind that it's an awesome 2D platformer.

Basically, the press want Nintendo to make games specifically for them, not for their general consumer base who absolutely ADORES 2D Mario. I think the establishment press' hatred toward NSMBWii pretty much confirms this.



VicViper said:
d21lewis said:

Do you mean the Japanese Mario 2 (aka lost levels) or the Doki Doki Mario 2? 

And yeah, I agree with you.  There were plenty of Mario alternatives for people looking for variations on the Mario formula.  I guess Nintendo knows that Mario has a particular brand of loyalty amongst fans.  If Super Princess Peach had starred Mario, I think it would have done much better in sales.  It was a pretty solid game but, withouth Mario on the box, many people didn't even give it a second look. 

One of the few series that almost always gets it right is Metroid.  I guess Grand Theft Auto and Castlevania do a good job of this, too (for the most part).  As for the last part of your post--I openly admit that we have no idea what we want.  When companies start listening to us and changing things to fit our demands, that's when things start getting generic and bland.  I think NSMB2 is barely outside of that window but I hope Nintendo goes their own way with the next game.  Make the game they want to make instead of making the game they think we want them to make.  It usually works out better for everybody when they don't follow some check list of demands.


One "proof" of what I'm saying (change is cyclical) is that if you look at the changes people want, most of the times they are throwbacks: world map, spin jump, yoshi, etc...

I've noticed this in other things, too.  Tablets, for example.

People wanted home computers, and then computers small enough to take with them.  Then, it reached a point where people had smart phones that could do most of what a computer coud do in the palm or their hands.  Now, people are leaning towards tablets (which just look like bigger cell phones to me) and wanting add on keyboard for their tablets.  It's like they want what they already had.  I think that by the time it's over, we'll be right back to having giant Batman computers in our homes....and people will want them to be smaller.

Same goes for portable consoles.  We want them small but when they get too small, we want them bigger.  When they get too big, we want them smaller.



RolStoppable said:] Sound Shapes is a better platformer than NSMB2 (see: Eurogamer editorial).

Link?



pezus said:
kopstudent89 said:
Very True.. amazing How Modern Warfare 3 has 88% on meta critic (and it's become a yearly franchise) where as we get an exceptional 2D Mario game gets 78%. DOUBLE STANDARDS

Like someone said before, you can't just look at a game and say: Hey, this is the third one in the series so why isn't it as low as the third NSMB?? THere are sooo many other factors going into play here.


True. But I chose Modern Warfare 3 as an example for a reason



pezus said:
kopstudent89 said:
pezus said:
kopstudent89 said:
Very True.. amazing How Modern Warfare 3 has 88% on meta critic (and it's become a yearly franchise) where as we get an exceptional 2D Mario game gets 78%. DOUBLE STANDARDS

Like someone said before, you can't just look at a game and say: Hey, this is the third one in the series so why isn't it as low as the third NSMB?? THere are sooo many other factors going into play here.


True. But I chose Modern Warfare 3 as an example for a reason

Well, the PC version is at 78 ;o

Hahahaha :P I also find it weird that Fifa and Madden games can constantly get 90's, but Mario games don't. Don't get me wrong I'm a big Fifa fan, but really if anything the 2D Mario games evolve better with every iteration (level designs, co-op, jump mechanics) than Fifa and Madden. That's why I think it's a bit of a double standard.