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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Does Mario need to be so kiddy?

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happydolphin said:
theRepublic said:
TruckOSaurus said:
happydolphin said:

As for the freedom offered by stronger consoles, I don't see the N64 version emasculating Mario like the newer incarnations does.

Emasculating Mario?!? What the hell are your smoking? Mario's voice was high-pitched from the get-go (in Mario 64) and it hasn't changed much since. Next thing you're going to tell me Bee Mario is emasculating because we usually think of bees as female or that Cloud Mario is kiddy because people like to use clouds to decorate kids rooms?

I read that and thought pretty much the same thing.  Mario was never really super masculine to begin with, and nothing in any of the newer games strikes me as emasculating.

Did you even watch the interview I posted? Charles Martinet says it himself, he used a high-pitch voice so as to be non-threatening to kids. In so doing, he made Mario (it regressed) alienating to most adults.

So don't play the "emasculating what??" card, it's not like I didn't see people play it before I posted that.

Non threatening to children ≠ Alienating to adults

You basically said this in the opening post of the thread.



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theRepublic said:

Non threatening to children ≠ Alienating to adults

You basically said this in the opening post of the thread.

I know theR, but the way Charles Martinet did it led it to alienate adults. He could have succeeded in meeting both in the middle, but he didn't.

True, you show that the interview doesn't prove he alienated adults, but it shows at least an effort to appeal to little children above all else, with no concern for what appeals to adults. As such it doesn't prove alieanating adults, but it supports not catering to adults.

Proof I'm trying to be honest here.



happydolphin said:
theRepublic said:

I read that and thought pretty much the same thing.  Mario was never really super masculine to begin with, and nothing in any of the newer games strikes me as emasculating.

Did you even watch the interview I posted? Charles Martinet says it himself, he used a high-pitch voice so as to be non-threatening to kids. In so doing, he made Mario (it regressed) alienating to most adults.

So don't play the "emasculating what??" card, it's not like I didn't see people play it before I posted that.

I just realized that you suffer from the same debating flaws in real-life discussion as you do in Mafia games. When presenting your opinion phrases like "I think that...", "It seems to me that...", "I get the impression that..." are your friends.

As it is right now, your sentence "In so doing, he made Mario (it regressed) alienating to most adults." is stating that the high-pitched voice has made Mario alienating to most adults. It's no wonder you're getting attacked for it because it's a baseless affirmation.

There's also one thing I don't get in your reasoning, first you said this : "I don't see the N64 version emasculating Mario like the newer incarnations does." which implies that you don't have a problem with Mario's voice in Mario 64 then to prove your emasculating/adult-alienating point which you say happened in the newer games you link us to a video where Charles Martinet explains his thought process when he auditioned to be the voice of Mario BEFORE Mario 64.



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theRepublic said:
TruckOSaurus said:
happydolphin said:

As for the freedom offered by stronger consoles, I don't see the N64 version emasculating Mario like the newer incarnations does.

Emasculating Mario?!? What the hell are your smoking? Mario's voice was high-pitched from the get-go (in Mario 64) and it hasn't changed much since. Next thing you're going to tell me Bee Mario is emasculating because we usually think of bees as female or that Cloud Mario is kiddy because people like to use clouds to decorate kids rooms?

I read that and thought pretty much the same thing.  Mario was never really super masculine to begin with, and nothing in any of the newer games strikes me as emasculating.

Did you ever play the first arcade Donkey Kong and Mario games? Mario was without any doubt more masculine than now.




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happydolphin said:

This is a topic that has always bothered me. I know that New Super Mario Bros. is an excellent game, and Mario Galaxy is a jewel of a game. But do the themes need to be so childish? Mario Kart, same diff.

As an older man, there are movies for kids that I can watch because they don't alienate me. Examples of these are disney's movies especially.

There are companies out there that create content that appeals to children, of all ages, and on a wide variety of themes. My favorite example of these is Disney. Time and time again, this company was able to release one classic after another of top content that appealed to children, and to adults alike. The Little Mermaid, The Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, The Lion King, Tarzan, and so on and so forth.

When we look at Nintendo, we found something similar in the origins of the Super Mario series:

                               

Donkey kong, the story of a Gorilla breaking down scaffolds that a construction worker (Mario) is attempting to climb in order to save the kidnapped princess. Sounds like King Kong... hmm not a movie for kids if I recall. What about Mario Bros, the story of a plummer that needs to attack crabs and turtles and butterflies, with fireballs coming out of the wall to attack him. The colors in both game are not aggressively childish, and hold neutral shades of blue, green, red and brown, with Peach's pink as the exception.

The trend continues all the way to Mario 3 and even on to Super Mario 64. But something happened at some point in the Gamecube era where Nintendo decided to inject colors and lame story

I think that you are looking at the history of Mario through "nostalgic 80's goggles" and misconstruing things to support your argument that aren't really the case.  For example, the level design of Donkey Kong being in a construction site was not chosen to give it a "appeal to adults theme" but instead had a far more practical purpose:

"Miyamoto had high hopes for his new project. He lacked the technical skills to program it himself, so instead came up with concepts and consulted technicians to see if they were possible. He wanted to make the characters different sizes, move in different manners and react in various ways. Yokoi thought Miyamoto's original design was too complex.   Another idea Yokoi suggested was to use see-saws to catapult the hero across the screen; this was too difficult to program. Miyamoto then thought of using sloped platforms, barrels and ladders. "

The choice of colors as well had far more practical purposes than simply to remain neutral so as to appeal to adults:

"Shigeru Miyamoto designed Mario wearing a hat because he found drawing hair difficult. He also drew Mario with a mustache because a mustache was easier to see than a mouth with 8-bit graphics.  Miyamoto designed Mario with overalls that contrast with his sleeves to help in the animation of his arm motions. The sleeves are of the same color of his shirt and without the overalls the arms would disappear during the movements. Overalls: Stylish and practical."

The choices that were made in game design for Donkey Kong or the original Mario games in the 80's were born out of necessity rather than what you saw as a conscious choice to appeal to all ages. 



happydolphin said:

I also feel like something is forced nowadays. I don't feel the same freedom I had when I used to play Mario, I'm forced to swallow a kid pill everytime I play. I never have to swallow that pill when I watch Disney movies, or play great NES games.

 

I don't think that people who grew up playing Mario in the 80's stop and think about the fact that there is a new generation of young kids growing up today that have a right to play and enjoy Mario games as well.  If you feel like you have to swallow a kid pill to play new Mario games today, perhaps the answer is that in your case, you have outgrown Mario.  (I grew up in the 80's as well, but I on the other hand enjoy playing Mario Galaxy and Mario 3D Land.)  Does that mean, because you or someone who feels as you do have outgrown Mario, that today's kids should be denied the right to play the types of games that our generation grew up playing?  I drove home this past Halloween and saw quite a few children dressed as Mario, and I realized that he is as huge with kids today as ever.  Why should Nintendo stop making games that appeal to this demographic?   Nintendo hasn't forgotten you, it is remembering the demographic you used to be a part of when you first played Mario.




happydolphin said:
osed125 said:

Mario games don't need a story IMO (except the RPGs of course), but with the popularity of the newer Mario games Nintendo is afraid of changing the formula, so I don't think we'll see big changes in the New Super Mario series anytime soon

What about the struggling sales (relatively of course) of NSMB2? Could that trigger an alarm?

How is NSMB2 struggling in sales?  It has been in the Top 3 in Global Software Sales in each of the three weeks since it released, including #1 for two of those three weeks.  It's at 3/4 of a million in sales in less than a month, and that's just one territory of sales since it just released in NA on the 19th.  At 780,000 units, it has already outsold every game on Vita, and is already 12th best selling on 3DS (once the NA #'s come in, it will cruise into the top ten on the system if not top 5 right away.)  So, define struggling sales please.



Mandalore76 said:
happydolphin said:
osed125 said:

Mario games don't need a story IMO (except the RPGs of course), but with the popularity of the newer Mario games Nintendo is afraid of changing the formula, so I don't think we'll see big changes in the New Super Mario series anytime soon

What about the struggling sales (relatively of course) of NSMB2? Could that trigger an alarm?

How is NSMB2 struggling in sales?  It has been in the Top 3 in Global Software Sales in each of the three weeks since it released, including #1 for two of those three weeks.  It's at 3/4 of a million in sales in less than a month, and that's just one territory of sales since it just released in NA on the 19th.  At 780,000 units, it has already outsold every game on Vita, and is already 12th best selling on 3DS (once the NA #'s come in, it will cruise into the top ten on the system if not top 5 right away.)  So, define struggling sales please.

If you're quoting one user, you don't need to make multiple posts one at a time. Try to put it all in a big reply next time.

Not trying to discourage you, or anything. You've got some great points there about the collision of hardware limitations and artistic choices in days of yore.



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Yes.

Mario has always been "kiddy" and always should be. That's his world. Cartoony, candy coated and brightly colored. The only reason why past games had more muted colors was because of the limitations of the technology. If you look at concept art from the time, Mario has always been a very colorful, cartoony world.

As a Sonic fan, I can say from experience that you should be happy that Mario has never "grown up". Sonic tried it. It was a disaster. Killed an entire franchise with just two games. Frankly, I've never been able to look at Sonic quite the same way again.

I'd say Mario's issue isn't that it's "kiddy". It's that the art style is bland and boring, and Nintendo has been doing its best to keep it that way. I don't want to ever see a more mature Mario. That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing a Mario that tried something different in the visuals department, ala Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island.

Which, by the way, used the FX trip to produce some marvelously beautiful "kiddy" visuals:

http://i2.listal.com/image/239305/600full-super-mario-world-2%3A-yoshi%27s-island-screenshot.jpg