Voltaire did =)

Christianity is nothing more than a Organised Religion/Mythical Cult that ripped off Paganism and Judaism and Islam.
More and more people are turning away from religion and have woken up to the fact that religion is the root of most evil.

Are our contributions to your thread ok, acceptable and help answer some questions or doubts?

Christians should know, and it's clear from the bible, that you don't need to be religious to have a conscience and set of morals. That's because their doctrine tells them we were all made by the same God who place that in our hearts.

Having said that, the Jesus Difference (see my post on it) makes it pretty clear that Christ goes an extra step beyond the established morals of secular society, Christ leads to something more akin to the child in us (believer or not): some aspirations that are impossible and more in the realm of ideals. Only thing is, Jesus promises to accomplish them in us.

As for the foundations of American society, it would be difficult to deny a certain christianity to them, as well as many other colors of faith and thought. Reason being, as a society, it was the people who upheld the leadership and, of these folks, many held christian morals as their guides.

I'm not sure exactly how Christianity ripped off Islam, since it predates it. If you're assuming gross corruption of canon, that's YOUR assumption. Since you have 0 proof, keep it to yourself.

As for ripping off Judaism, as Jesus said, I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. If you actually read the Jesus Difference post I made, you would see he doesn't rip it off, he revolutionizes it. Kind of like what Microsoft did with Kinect with the Wii-mote idea.

Christianity ripping off paganism is, like I said in my "Anti-Messiah" post and in the first 2 paragraphs of my explaining christianity post, a preposterous idea.

I think Christian values are the interpretation of the natural behaviour of humans and the conventions of the time and place. If our values were taken directly from the bible we would look down on people for things like emancipation and divorce, which in many cases serves a real purpose in modern society.

That's not to say that values aren't taken from Christianity though. A lot of modern society's values are in essence Christian, but I believe the Christian values are in turn based on nature and society's conventions/needs.


In a nutshell, I think Christian values act as a middle-man for human instinct.

@italics. It's a good post, but I disagree with italics. If by Christian values you mean values which are derived by people from Christian doctrine, maybe. But if you're talking about Christian values themselves (per Christian doctrine), Christ is extremely counter-intuitive. See my Jesus Difference post, especially the one where he asks us to bless those who curse us and pray for those who persecute us. That is not secular at all. Secularism (society's conventions and needs) demands justice almost at all times.

First of all in reply to your 1st statement, "I never get the idea that atheists can't have morals, frankly I find it incredibly offensive.", a Christian answer to this should be that indeed, atheists (as opposed to a theist) can and should have a moral coding. The book of Romans is clear on this subject that the laws of morality stem from a higher call on theist and atheist. Yhey are written on our hearts, metaphorically speaking.

The issue with this for an atheist is that since it is assumed God does not exist, therefore morality can not come from God in the first place. 

"Why is an authority needed for morals?" - now this statement can be applied in context to the local (ie yourself) or to a wider audience ( what the "common" person would conclude ought to be done). Take this example and tell me where the authority on moral standing comes from:

"Suppose you are sitting at home one evening, when you hear outside a terrified shriek for help. You immediately feel an instinctive urge to go to the rescue of whoever is in need. But then the contrary instinct of self-preservation surfaces and urges you to not get involve. Now, how shall you decide which of these two instincts to obey; in other words, what your "duty" is? It is clear that whatever it is that tells you what you "ought" to do, when your instincts are delivering conflicting advice, cannot itself be an instinct".

What is it, what is the moral code? What ought you do? Most might say to go to that persons help, but what is making you decide that and where does it stem from? The dilemma is that how can it possibly be an instinct and if it's not an instinct, therefore it is a moral compelling. Now, where does that moral compelling come from if it cannot possibly be an instinct? Authority may not be the perfect word to apply but it's difficult to come up with another word that suits.

Some typical Western values that largely can be traced to Christian influence:

Every human has individual inherent value despite what your talents or works are, despite your position in life (Christian origin: man is the image of God. God's own son died for every man. No man can earn his way to righteousness or into heaven by doing good deeds)

Altruism instead of elitism (this is strong in Eastern religion too, but not in pre-Christian European/Greco-Roman culture as far as I know)

The concepts of good and evil and the belief in free will are still much stronger in the West than the atheist/naturalist/socialist belief that the individudal is just a product of nature and nurture and has no inherent responsibility for his actions.

Individualism instead of collectivism. The integrity of each individual. According to Western values the individual is more important than the collective which is a principle very much guiding our actions and our laws.

Universal human rights and equality between nations and peoples (In Christianity: "There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female.")

Anti-materialism

Guilt and self-criticism. In the West it is a virtue to be self-critical and humble.

Our idealisation of love as the highest of all traits (The importance of love is hammered through the whole New Testament.)

Sexual morals - we still tend to idealize sex out of love rather than lust.

Well the point is one cannot simply dismiss religion not teaching any good values. One person mentioned the Golden rule...

This is one of the most famous bible sayings "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets"

I think we can all agree on that.

"More and more people are turning away from religion and have woken up to the fact that religion is the root of most evil."

Okay, if you and many atheists say Religion is the creation of man...
Tell me what (or who) is actually the root of most evil then?

he  he

My point being an irreligious world will not be a substantially less evil world, for the root of evil is man.

It is odd that you make religion seem like some supreme force that is forcing man to be evil and ignore that fact that according to atheist belief, Religion is a creation of man.

Also Utilitarianism makes sense buts it’s more a process to develop and apply morals.

Also one of the most well liked and religious sayings is "God Helps those who help themselves". It actually has roots from ancient Greece, not the Bible.

That point is the essence of self-responsibility, which is something that is quite lacking in our society.

Also, the message of Christ is something to listen to actually. The way he wishes us to care for ourselves and the poor goes well beyond even our post-modern societal values.

They are Christian values, not because they didn`t exist before, but because of the weight that they carried being spread through religion.
Those values didn`t start from men, they came from God; It`s the difference between anthropocentrism and teocentrism.