No, just no. Forza is by far the EASIEST racing game I have ever played when it comes to taking corners. Burnout, NFS and Grid do not compare to the simplicity of flicking or barely moving the left stick in order to take a tight turn. Even on sim mode,with all assists off,  it's almost impossible to accidentally stick your rear end out over steering and underbraking into a tight turn. Even with 800hp at the rear wheels of a standard Dodge viper, the car controls like a BMW m3 with stiff springs and the gtr's traction control. The only thing you have to worry about in Forza is the gas/brake balance. Steering is nearly non existant. All in contrast to playing the gt5 demo at bestbuy for the first time, using a 458 italia at the nurburging, no assists. With a pad, I could not take a clean turn for the life of me without underbraking, oversteering, or overcompensating for drift, feeling the car slip out from under me every time. While Forza may have a good livery, tuning shop, online marketplace and background detail, a SIM it is not. Plus the exclusion of a weather system day/ night system, and the new "Definitive" simulator is not so Definitive after all. If gt5 had launched with just premium cars, people would call it the definitive racer of the gen. But because you want a team of only 140 to possibly render 800 cars in supreme detail in under five years, you'll never be satisfied.

If you played Forza 3 so much... you know the tracks are greater than the real one... it is a bit wider to facilitate the driving... GT5 not, the tracks are close to real one.... even the imperfection are perfectly reproduced.

Because that the lap time in GT5 are close to real... Forza 3 not... the Nurburgring track is too easy in Forza 3 because Turn 10 made the track wider and turns wider.

Not just it... the driving in Forza 3 is so easy even with assists turned off... you can make every turn without braking or effort.

Maybe that's the point... for a game the Forza serie is more funny and easy than GT serie... but for simulator the GT serie is more accurate and close to real... reviewers pefers more a game than a simulator ... but I can't say the samething about the gamers (they prefer GT over Forza) .

Not once have I said I played Forza 4, and multiple times I said I expect it to be better then Forza 3/GT5 in this regard, and that I will have to play the game myself before I can judge it.

My PS3 is broken, I can give you my PSN, but it will be a couple months before I can add you. I can give you a couple cars if you like cause I don't really play GT5 anymore, and probably won't pick it up again after Forza 4 comes out (except to challenge friends).

Convenient

Turn 10 has the rights to replicate damage in racing simulators. This includes tire deformation. GT5 does not do damage past a cosmetic level (except for artificial damage penalties based on collision speed, but not actual damage). GT5 also does not do tire deformation. I would have to look up an article saying what Turn 10 has exclusive rights to, it's been a while, but Polyphony Digital cannot simulate several aspects of racing because of Turn 10 and MS. Just like how Forza 4 and GT can't get Porsche because of EA.

see I knew you were talking bullshit, GT5 does both tire wear and mechanical damage

http://www.gtplanet.net/yamauchi-on-gt5s-mechanical-damage-updates-more/

hint to why the are doing pit stops, It's raining and they need to switch to wet tires, and you should have played endurance race because that's where tier wear takes effect, you know because in order to have a realistic simulator of tire wear, the race has to last more than 8 laps >.> I mean what the hell did you think the tire indicator on the bottom left of the hud was for....shits and giggles, no it was to show the condition of the tire blue meaning normal tire pressure and temp, and they light up read whenever their are forces acting on the tire, Increased track temp, break pressure, etc. and that bodes for which tires degrade quicker than others. I mean have you ever read the description of the tires when you equip them to you car??? and all these things are effected by chamber angle, "toe" and tire compound

Engine fatigue -> damage. Forza has rights to it, GT can only model penalties based on calculations of engine fatigue, but they cannot develop an engine which models engine wear over time. Meaning if you do a race in GT5, and you gear down too fast, your engine will not get damaged. All PD can do is add a penalty to your lap time, or slow your car down by an estimated value. In Forza 2, 3 and I assume 4, your engine can blow from doing this too much, and this can limit your car to nearly a crawl speed.

again more bullshit, because GT5 does that brosev

sigh, did you EVER visit the tuning shop in GT, how about GT auto? where you have to pay hard earned credits to for ENGINE MAINTENANCE, because your engine degrades effecting performance, how acceleration, torque, horsepower, all take a hit as the engine degrades and you can clearly see that simulated as top speed, acceleration, and overall lap time suffer if you don't monitor and maintain your engine

Chassis Rigidity I'd have to read up on. I know this is something well modeled in GT5, and for the purpose of aerodynamics and assigning weight distributions during breaking, it's done will in Forza 3. However like I said the momentum of the weight shifting is modeled damn well in GT5 (you can see this when your car dips in a corner), and I would have to see personally if Forza 4 can match GT5 in this aspect. Reading most reviews, as a simulation racing game, people generally conclude Forza 4 is best, so I assume Forza 4 can at least match GT5 in this aspect.

Well Right next to Engine maintenance, is Chassis Rigidity, where if you crash and screw up your body work in GT, you also screw up weight balance, aerodynamics, weight distribution, etc  and @ bold what people, link me their credible reviews because I haven't read them

Oil changes....LOL Something PD could make a model for that didn't infringe on Turn 10's rights for simulation racing games. Only time this ever made a difference in GT5 was when you bought a used car, or raced 1 car way too many times.

which matters in Racing you are aware of this right???

How accurate what in particluar is about GT5? I said weight shifting when cornering was really well done in GT5, and there are other highlights GT5 has over Forza 3. However in general, GT5 models simulation aspects of racing about as well as Forza 3. From what reviewers say, and what I read, Forza 4 is best. Take IGN's review for instance "With Forza 4 Turn 10 has crafted a driving game like no other; it's hands-down this generation's premier racing simulator."

lol he said IGN lol nothing more needs to be said here

Forza 4 is the closest thing to racing simulation perfection this generation, and even then it's far from perfect. The fact that you think GT5 is perfect shows a lot of ignorance because Forza 3 and GT5 both behave significantly different from real world racing.

PGR4 did Rain, Snow and Ice too. Is it a more detailed racing sim because it has Ariel Atoms in it and Ice? Kudos for GT5 to include those aspects of the game, but at the same time Kudos to Turn 10 for focusing on plain racing, and making it as acccurate as possible before expanding the simulation to encorporate weather. GT5 is an amazing sim, and it has it's advantages over Forza, but for the same reason PGR4 has advantages over GT5 and Forza as well lol.

you just said pgr4 does sim aspects better than GT.... why I ask myself am I responding to you...

Wow, Forza literally can't be a better sim then GT? You are ignorant. Go race on a real track, and observe how poorly bumps in the track are immitated in any racing game. Try to match your track time in GT5 or Forza in real life, you won't be able to do it, not without hours and hours of practice.

what I meant by that is GT offers FAAAAAR more on track experience to test the physics in a realistic environment, things Forza doesn't even do, dirt racing, wet/ rain, full length real world races, and so much more I can't be bothered to name, look it up (could have worded it better but whatever). you know you claim to have played GT but from most of your post you could fooled me.

Michael-5 said:

To my knowledge, Forza 4 has modeled Nurburgring to the same accuracy as GT5. Not sure about every track, but it would make no sense that their other tracks differed in accuracy. I never heard anything about Forza 3 or 4 tracks being wider then then should, could you at least tell me where you heard that from (Don't need a source, just want to know where you heard it from)

Turn 10 did not make Nurburgring's track wider, and what? Nurburgring track times are close to real in GT5? In the GT-R I beat the lap record in GT5. In fact there is a tropy for it isn't there? How can that be accurate.

Jermy Clarkson himself did an interview for Fifth Gear when GT4 came out and he went off to compare the authenticity of the accuracy of track times. He took the Acura NSX on that Laguna course in the US somewhere. His GT4 time was 20-30 seconds faster then his real life time, and he pointed out many of the reasons as to stuff GT5 and Forza 3/4 cannot model (like feeling bumps and stuff). He also said you loose traction in these bumps and GT4 didn't model the change in traction very well (Forza 4 focuses on this to model).

What I do know is that for the several race driver profiles in Forza Motorsport 3, they asked the real world race drivers to set lap times on various different tracks so they can program an AI to match their driving style and lap speed. Apparently most of them got lap times withing fractions of a second to their real lap times. Now that is accurate, and .... I'll look up this video.

Found it. Stefane Sarrazin's opinion on Forza Motorsport 3

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/stephane-sarrazin-forza-motorsport/57684

Brakes and feel are perfect "You need to brake like in a race car, very late, big breaking, acceleration after the apex. It's like in reality" "I brake at the same point, turn at the same point"

Real Track Time 1:06.5

Forza 3 Track Time 1:06.7

So there, all this BS about braking, busted I'd trust a professional race driver, and my own experience then a bunch of people who clearly primarily play GT5 only.

Everything you say sounds like complete BS to me. I can't corner any easier in Forza 3 then I do in GT5, and the speeds I take corners in GT5 with is about the same as in Forza 3. I've tried both games on the same tv, both using wheels, and the difference between my lap times on identical tracks isn't major in either game. The main difference is Forza models braking better (you don't brake while cornering otherwise the friction used to brake would send you straight off the track, so this alone shows you that what you say is complete bs), where in GT5 your car drifts more easily because momentum is better accounted for in GT5.

To be honest, I feel GT5 is an inferior sim to Forza 3 because of damage. In GT5 when you hit a bump or get air, your car's suspension is poorly modeled. This usually only happens on the fictional courses, but I've had my car get 10 feet of air, and not bottom out or cripple the suspension. That doesn't happen in real life, drop a Ferarri any more then 1 foot and you have extensive damage, the car may not even be drivable. Race for more then 10 minutes in Forza 3 and your lap time will start to drop due to tire wear. That doesn't happen in GT5. Try to take a Porsche on nurburging, the second lap is very very different from the first. Ontop of that braking. In GT5 braking is only really allocated by brake force. In Forza 3 depending on the pith and speed of the car, different tires brake differently. With damage, sometime 1 wheel can lock up, but not the others. this never happens in GT5.

I have to agree with the reviewers, and well any figurehead which has played Forza 4. From what they say Forza 4 is the best simulator available this generation, and from my experience with Forza 3 and GT5, I would be surprised if it wasn't.

You call all bullshit even when some reviewers stated that.

5 seconds on google...

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3372919&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=32#post394162063
http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/3233971.aspx

The tracks in Forza 3 are wider than real one and GT5 one... and the reviews I read said that not changed in Forza 4.

That's so ease to see... just stop your car in Forza 3 and look at proportion of track/car... the cars in Forza3 looks small compared to real one, but in fact the tracks are bigger... that's not a problem for a pro driving in line but for amateurs make the driving more easy .

I can found more if you insist .

my advice, endurance races ...... do them

Your quoting forum threads by users, and not Turn 10 or PD figures. I'm returning my debate with race driver inputs, actual values for track times, and comments from multiple large scale video game websites. Do you see why your counters have no value? Do you see why I can so easily call your BS?

If I made a thread saying GT5 tracks were 115% wider then in real life, does that make it true? Stop reading forums, and base your comments off real data.

As for my other points? I assume you agree? You stopped bugging me on track times when I busted you above, you stopped hastling me on brakes when I busted you above? Will you now stop spreading these rumors of Forza 3/4 being an inferior simulator? Forza 4 is overall the best, simple as that, but GT5 still has it's merrits. Can't you just accept that?

If you played Forza 3 so much... you know the tracks are greater than the real one... it is a bit wider to facilitate the driving... GT5 not, the tracks are close to real one.... even the imperfection are perfectly reproduced.

Because that the lap time in GT5 are close to real... Forza 3 not... the Nurburgring track is too easy in Forza 3 because Turn 10 made the track wider and turns wider.

Not just it... the driving in Forza 3 is so easy even with assists turned off... you can make every turn without braking or effort.

Maybe that's the point... for a game the Forza serie is more funny and easy than GT serie... but for simulator the GT serie is more accurate and close to real... reviewers pefers more a game than a simulator ... but I can't say the samething about the gamers (they prefer GT over Forza) .

have u played forza 4

I never said GT5 didn't have Tire wear and mechanical damage. I said it had minimal amounts of it, where for Turn 10 it's a prime focus of their engines.

I played only the 2 hour endurance races, and I can tell you tire wear is nowhere nearly a profound as in Forza 3.

Changing tires due to weather conditions is not tire wear, or traction. It's pre-assigned values gathered through testing, which alter in sudden climate changes. Ever notice it doesn't gradually change weather in GT5 endurance races? That's why. It's just a basic system to make racing in the rain somewhat realistic.

Fucking Facepalm

watch the entire vid and tell me why they are still kicking up water even though there is no more rain on the windshield

GT5 doesn't model track temperature.

Fucking Facepalm, yeah tires totally behave the same in a snow environment as they do on hot fucking tarmac

Camber angle, toe, and tire compound only assign wear values in GT5. GT5 doesn't physically have tire degradation. All GT5 does is that the more camber or toe you have, the faster the tire degrades, set by a pre-determined value. What Forza does is it actually shrinks the radius of the tire, and errode the tire at the location of the wear (have more positive camber, and only the inner wall of your tire will erode). GT5 doesn't have that, when your tire is bad, the whole tire colour changes. It's not the same, GT5 assigns values based on real world measurements. Forza 3 has a model that replicates real world tire wear. The difference is huge.

it's like you say what you think makes sense and then post it, NONE of what you wrote makes any fucking sense at all

You can't blow your engine in GT5, full speed impact to the wall and you get a penalty, with a speed reduction. This speed reduction is not based off the damage to the engine, but a calculated penatly based off the speed you hit the wall. Again, this is comparing pre-assigned values to give a penatly, to an actual model. Do you not understand the difference?

GT Auto shop - pre-assigned values. the game does not actually model engine fatigue, but it gives values based on the distance and average speed travelled.

where the fuck do you come up with this shit???

Credible reviews - Go to metacritic, and pick one. Only 5 reviews are below 9/10, and almost all of them say Forza 4 is the best sim. Two websites I trust faithfully are IGN and GameTrailers. Just read the 1 sentance quote for them, it's there.

Oil Changes. Okay GT5 beats Forza 4 in the aspect of oil changes, guess I can't call Forza 4 a sim of equal or greater quality because of this one small aspect. Nevermind the better braking, damage model, tire deformation model, and accuracy of track times compared to real world laps. Oil Changes is the breaking factor.

Don't hate IGN just because they gave a fair review of GT5 and gave it an 8.5/10. I challenge you to look up 1 review from the last couple years which they have given a game an unfair score.

I'm using PGR4 as an example. Just as how silly PGR4 is a better sim then GT5 because of Ice, it's silly to say GT5 is better then Forza 4 because of rain. Do you not understand the logic of my posts, or are you just having trouble accepting GT5 isn't as perfect as you think?

As for your last ignorant comment. Forza 3 and 4 are track racing simulators. I know GT5 offers Rally racing, and go-kart racing, but having those bonus's doesn't mean that in the department of track racing it's a better sim.

Have you ever even played Forza? For how many total hours? I'm about 80 hours for Forza 3, 40-50 hours for GT5, and another 60 hours or so for Forza 2. For older GT's I'm into the hundreds of hours combined.