I actually wouldn't mind seeing a comparison chart between F3, F4 and GT5.

What does making the game more accessable have to do with how realistic of a sim the game is? How does rewind make the track wider, or make the modeling of the physics and less so? Forza and GT are simulation games, if it were a real sim you would never drive more then 1 car.

Watch the reviews, most reviews say Forza 4 is a better sim, not just a better game. You are acting ignorant if you ignore that because your simply ignoring facts to support a view. At this point I think you are just joking with me because you seem to be debating your personal opinion versus reality. GT5 didn't rate low because of Bias, that's just bs. I own every GT, and GT5 was a dissapointment. Never has GT ever given priority to one part of the game (premium cars) and so blatently ignored the rest (Rally, NASCAR, Top Gear are all such small add ons in GT5, but in older GT's Rally was a core aspect of the game).

Everything strikeout is complete BS. How many hours have you even put into Forza? and how many hours have you put into GT5?

Combined I have put in over 150 hours into Forza 3 and GT5, and I've probably put in over 300 hours into PS2 GT games.

I can play GT5's races fine with a controller, I can't win Forza races with AI set to hard without a wheel. Forza is a harder game when you set it up to be. Not being able to tell the difference between RWD and AWD, that just means you aren't pushing the cars hard enough, and you can't get the ass out on a turn.

You clearly have not played Forza, and I'm sorry to say you're pretty ignorant. Your like one of those people who will think a Ford Mustang is 100,000x better then a Camero, but in reality they are similar cars with their own strong points. You just can't accept competition, or the fact that in the last 6 years someone has been able to develop a superior sim.

When you read reviews, they all say Forza 4 is the best SIM, only in forums you hear protest, mainly from people who don't own a 360, or have even played Forza 3/4. All the claims of Forza being an inferior sim are all based on rumors like track width. Forza 3 and 4 are the only sims that actually model mechanical behaviour. I have never ramed a wall and had my tire jam into the wheel well in GT5, in Forza 3  it wasn't uncommon.

You mock Forza for being a joke because of rewind, well what kind of SIM lets you hit a wall at full impact, and only give you a mild penalty after you have reached a level in the game where you unlock minor damage? What kind of sim doesn't have a tire deformation model, or an engine fatigue model? You can mock both games.

The fact of the matter, like the Camero and Mustang, both games have their benefits, and realisitcally the newest entry will be the most accurate. So if GT6 comes out next year, I would expect it to be a better SIM then Forza 4. However, for now, Forza 4 is the best.

Just play Forza 4, tell me that the steering and brake affect, on simulation, are not accurate. If the game could somehow make you feel lateral g's, I would see little room for improvement.

And he says bias is the reason why Forza has higher ratings over GT, when GT is the more established franchise. LOL

Some people just need to compensate for lacking........games.

ethomaz gave up. He tried to source forum threads as a legitimate point to his arguement, when I used actual sources.

The main thing is Forza has established itself. Forza 4 is the best racing sim, and Forza 3 was pretty damn good too. GT5 is an amazing sim, but it's not without competition anymore.

These thread arguements will last forever because GT5 and Forza 3/4 both want to model simulation racing as accuratly as possible. It's more easily to compare and argue these games then say Halo and Killzone because their quality is significantly less subjective. That and they are both flagship console exclusives.

The least he could have done is given you the curtesy of admitting that you are right in this matter.

Oh well I'm sure there will be more fun debates to look at in this thread :D

And in this, some may experience some Rage and other may now be Quaking in their boots.  Anyhow, sorry for crying Wolf here, it isn't too Keen of me to do that.

We have a bet. If GT5 doesn't break 8.5 million by March 31st 2012, he promised me sig and avatar control for 2 weeks. I'm going to request him to put a FM4 logo on his profile picture, and maybe something like "Forza 4, the most realistic racing SIM" in his signature.

I just hope in 6 months, he accepts loss (if he losses the bet) and respect the bet. Otherwise I will loose all respect for him.

I don't know I think GT5 could get pretty close to 8.5 million by the end of 2012. Especially if it gets bundled (which it probably will)

ethomaz is a pretty good guy so I think if he lost that bet he would respect that bet although it would probably kill him a little bit doing that

Read the bold. We also made a second bet for 9.5 million by the end of 2012.

I agree with you ethomaz is pretty respectable. I just dunno if I'll be able to convince him to make a Forza 4 profile pic. He loves GT to no ends. Then again, I gave him a couple cars in GT5 because he didn't know how to tune them, so I hope he honors this bet.

Oh...8.5 by March 31st 2012 seems rather unlikely at this point unless it gets some serious bundling.