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Forums - Nintendo - So Pachter Says "Nintendo Is Too Late"....That's Great News For Nintendo !

archbrix said:
Mythe said:
I think he might be right.

The Wii U will do well until the Xbox 720 and PS4. Then it will die like the Dreamcast.

That's one scenario.

Another is that the Xbox 1080 and PS4 mostly receive ports of Wii U games because Nintendo already has a dominant position on the market like the PS2...

Chances are you won't see a Dreamcast or a PS2 performance, but one where Nintendo does remarkably well and introduces a new way of playing via their new controller.

Why aren't more people naming the next Xbox like this? It makes perfect sense.



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LordTheNightKnight said:
mrstickball said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

"I would imagine that due to the release schedule, Sony and Microsoft can maneuver knowing the WiiU specs, resulting with more powerful consoles at a better price-performance ratio, therefore a better value proposition for consumers."

Specs are not value for most gamers. That is a delusion the enthusiasts keep telling themselves. They said it about the PSP versus the DS. Even when the Wii started to falter, it wasn't because people magically realized the specs were too low, it was the games.

I mean, how hard is it to understand that with video game systems, the games are the real value proposition?

Incidentally, the games so far look really uninteresting (I don't care if many are tech demos, they are really dumb ones), and that is the reason to doubt this system, not this stupid myth about console wars being decided by the most powerful system.

And the Wii proved that without similar power levels of the other comparable consoles, it won't get the same games. Therefore, system performance does play a part in the scheme of things - if you have a PS4/X720 at similar power levels, and the WiiU at 50 or 60%, I would imagine that developers may pidgeonhole it like they did the Wii. That is why power matters.


No, developers proved they didn't want to work on the Wii. Again, the specs matter to the enthusiasts (which includes people who make games), not to the mainstream gamers (which counts people that buy GTA and CoD).

Unless that is what you meant, but you implied that developers get to call the shots, and the will of the customers isn't to be taken into account.

The customers chose ever console generation winner, not the developers. And specs only mattered to them when Nintendo wasn't making more powerful systems, as the Playstation 1 and 2 weren't the leader in specs.

That is what I meant - not just developers, but publishers that analyze the benefits of the consoles to produce best practices for their titles. The developers will want develop for whatever is the easiest, best system to develop on. That includes horsepower (or ease of utilizing horsepower to achieve a specific development goal), SDKs, and ancillary features to the cosnole that may have an impact on the development cycle. You said developers didn't want to develop on the Wii - I have to ask 'why didn't they want to develop on the Wii?'. Was it due to the lack of technical specs which required significant retooling to make a game that ran on X360/PS3 to run on the Wii? Or was it something that had nothing to do with specs? That is what I am concerned about for the WiiU - especially in the hard drive department.

Developers do choose the console generation winners. We've seen time and time again that as major IPs are established, developed, promoted and so on, they establish winners and losers among the consoles - each generation, we see the winner based on the games that are produced for a console's library. In the case of the PS1/2 specifications, its important to note the PS1 had a distinct advantage over both other systems due to storage device and ease-of-development (N64 had the more costly and limited cartridge drive, while the Saturn required developer knowledge of Assemble and working with a very difficult processor). With the PS2, it was arguably the only console to win a generation which was inferior to the GC/XBX in most technical departments, but has been the only console to have that distinction out of the past few generations.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Ok! Mr. Pachter... You usually are wrong... So, Microsoft and Sony will copy Nintendo again... probably... XD



mrstickball said:

Developers do choose the console generation winners. We've seen time and time again that as major IPs are established, developed, promoted and so on, they establish winners and losers among the consoles - each generation, we see the winner based on the games that are produced for a console's library.

Developer backing is of crucial importance, no doubt.  But that's certainly not a foolproof mantra; how do you explain the Wii?  It didn't have squat for third party support or cross-platform hit games, yet has handily outsold both of its competitors this generation... not to mention allowed Nintendo to profit far beyond what Sony or Microsoft will accomplish this gen.



archbrix said:
mrstickball said:

Developers do choose the console generation winners. We've seen time and time again that as major IPs are established, developed, promoted and so on, they establish winners and losers among the consoles - each generation, we see the winner based on the games that are produced for a console's library.

Developer backing is of crucial importance, no doubt.  But that's certainly not a foolproof mantra; how do you explain the Wii?  It didn't have squat for third party support or cross-platform hit games, yet has handily outsold both of its competitors this generation... not to mention allowed Nintendo to profit far beyond what Sony or Microsoft will accomplish this gen.

Look at the releases for the console in the first 2-3 years vs. that of the GameCube or other lesser-selling consoles that Nintendo has had. Furthermore, look at the Wii for the past two years of significant declines. I would attribute its initial success due to the internal developers that devoted significant resources (and success) to the system, and the crash due to the lack of resources of 3rd party developers.

Now, the next question is "Why can't Nintendo carry the WiiU like they did the Wii and make 3rd parties irrelevant?" - I think the Wii was in a much more unique position than the WiiU is poised to be in, much like the DSi-3DS transition we're seeing now. The Wii was a revolutionary piece of hardware and attracted huge consumer interest due to motion controls. The key question for the WiiU is if the tablet can translate into huge consumer buzz or not, and if Nintendo can capitalize on the tablet to develop significant new IPs. In the case of the Wii, we saw arguably Nintendo's most innovative and creative period in over a decade with titles like Wii Sports/Play, Wii Fit, and so on, which sold tens of millions of copies, or were packed-in and contributed to the incredible value proposition of the hardware.

Therefore, my belief about the market concerning WiiU is as follows:

  1. Nintendo will see a regression in terms of innovative new IPs on the WiiU (some successes, but no massive new IPs like Fit, Sports or Play)
  2. 3rd Parties will not embrace the console with major multi-plats well into the WiiU lifespan (very detrimental to the Wii's success over the past 2 years)
  3. System specs will make developers fall prey to the higher-specced PS4/X720 which will make said consoles their primary development platforms after launch (likely around 2014)
  4. If rumors of a 8GB onboard HDD are true, then points #2 and #3 will accellerate significantly, as publishers will see poor tie ratios of DLC on major tentpole IPs which will be arguably the #1 or #2 concern of next-gen revenue consers
  5. The tablet will be under-utilized by 3rd parties, and be a potential boondoggle in terms of cost to pack in with the WiiU which may hurt the console (e.g. WiiU won't be at the $249 Wii price tag, which was huge for its success against far more expensive consoles)
  6. WiiU will sell very well for the first 2 years (better than comparables for the X360 and PS3, but worse than the Wii), then see significant declines in 2015 as the PS4/X720 iterations soak up market share from consumers
  7. Will lead to 35m to 50m LTD sales - highly dependant on what MS/Sony do for deployment, and HDD space of WiiU.


Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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mrstickball said:
archbrix said:
mrstickball said:

Developers do choose the console generation winners. We've seen time and time again that as major IPs are established, developed, promoted and so on, they establish winners and losers among the consoles - each generation, we see the winner based on the games that are produced for a console's library.

Developer backing is of crucial importance, no doubt.  But that's certainly not a foolproof mantra; how do you explain the Wii?  It didn't have squat for third party support or cross-platform hit games, yet has handily outsold both of its competitors this generation... not to mention allowed Nintendo to profit far beyond what Sony or Microsoft will accomplish this gen.

Look at the releases for the console in the first 2-3 years vs. that of the GameCube or other lesser-selling consoles that Nintendo has had. Furthermore, look at the Wii for the past two years of significant declines. I would attribute its initial success due to the internal developers that devoted significant resources (and success) to the system, and the crash due to the lack of resources of 3rd party developers.

Now, the next question is "Why can't Nintendo carry the WiiU like they did the Wii and make 3rd parties irrelevant?" - I think the Wii was in a much more unique position than the WiiU is poised to be in, much like the DSi-3DS transition we're seeing now. The Wii was a revolutionary piece of hardware and attracted huge consumer interest due to motion controls. The key question for the WiiU is if the tablet can translate into huge consumer buzz or not, and if Nintendo can capitalize on the tablet to develop significant new IPs. In the case of the Wii, we saw arguably Nintendo's most innovative and creative period in over a decade with titles like Wii Sports/Play, Wii Fit, and so on, which sold tens of millions of copies, or were packed-in and contributed to the incredible value proposition of the hardware.

Therefore, my belief about the market concerning WiiU is as follows:

  1. Nintendo will see a regression in terms of innovative new IPs on the WiiU (some successes, but no massive new IPs like Fit, Sports or Play)
  2. 3rd Parties will not embrace the console with major multi-plats well into the WiiU lifespan (very detrimental to the Wii's success over the past 2 years)
  3. System specs will make developers fall prey to the higher-specced PS4/X720 which will make said consoles their primary development platforms after launch (likely around 2014)
  4. If rumors of a 8GB onboard HDD are true, then points #2 and #3 will accellerate significantly, as publishers will see poor tie ratios of DLC on major tentpole IPs which will be arguably the #1 or #2 concern of next-gen revenue consers
  5. The tablet will be under-utilized by 3rd parties, and be a potential boondoggle in terms of cost to pack in with the WiiU which may hurt the console (e.g. WiiU won't be at the $249 Wii price tag, which was huge for its success against far more expensive consoles)
  6. WiiU will sell very well for the first 2 years (better than comparables for the X360 and PS3, but worse than the Wii), then see significant declines in 2015 as the PS4/X720 iterations soak up market share from consumers
  7. Will lead to 35m to 50m LTD sales - highly dependant on what MS/Sony do for deployment, and HDD space of WiiU.

1) Is an assumption that can't be supported with any facts. While we haven't seen any "real" games for the Wii U yet, Nintendo has used the tablet in many unexpected ways and it is possible that they could surprise us. On top of that, the success of Wii Fit and Kinect has demonstrated that add-ons can be used to increase interest in a platform for a unique gameplay experience, and I would expect Nintendo to have at least 1 major add-on in the life of the Wii U.

2) Third party publishers seem fairly willing to support any platform that will play their games without needing massive modifications. Expect (pretty much) every game that is being released for both of the HD consoles to have a Wii U port.

3) Realistically, we don't really know what the capabilities of the Wii U or next generation systems from Sony/Microsoft are ... It is entirely possible that the Wii U is more powerful than you give it credit for, Sony and Microsoft's consoles will be less powerful than you anticipate, and the difference between processing power in the next generation isn't as meaningful as you predict.

4) First off, this is entirely speculative on the capabilites of the system and beyond that I thought tie-in ratios for downloadable content were bad for all systems?

5) Third party developers seem amazingly positive on the tablet because it is an enhancement they immediately know how to use to improve the games they're working on. See John Carmack's interview to see what I mean.

6) This might happen, but it could also play out that the Wii U is successful for the first few years and after Sony and Microsoft release new consoles that don't have meaningful improvements over the Wii U and cost significantly more the sales of the Wii U accelerate. That was not a prediction, but I'm just pointing out that you're making an assumption that the next systems from Sony and Microsoft will be dramatically better than the Wii U; and we know far too little about any of these systems to support that argument.

7) Who knows how it will sell? Many people were predicting the Wii would sell 10 Million systems for similar reasons and it will (likely) sell more than 10 times that many by the time it is done.

 



mrstickball said:
archbrix said:
mrstickball said:

Developers do choose the console generation winners. We've seen time and time again that as major IPs are established, developed, promoted and so on, they establish winners and losers among the consoles - each generation, we see the winner based on the games that are produced for a console's library.

Developer backing is of crucial importance, no doubt.  But that's certainly not a foolproof mantra; how do you explain the Wii?  It didn't have squat for third party support or cross-platform hit games, yet has handily outsold both of its competitors this generation... not to mention allowed Nintendo to profit far beyond what Sony or Microsoft will accomplish this gen.

Look at the releases for the console in the first 2-3 years vs. that of the GameCube or other lesser-selling consoles that Nintendo has had. Furthermore, look at the Wii for the past two years of significant declines. I would attribute its initial success due to the internal developers that devoted significant resources (and success) to the system, and the crash due to the lack of resources of 3rd party developers.

Therefore, my belief about the market concerning WiiU is as follows:

  1. Nintendo will see a regression in terms of innovative new IPs on the WiiU (some successes, but no massive new IPs like Fit, Sports or Play)
  2. 3rd Parties will not embrace the console with major multi-plats well into the WiiU lifespan (very detrimental to the Wii's success over the past 2 years)
  3. System specs will make developers fall prey to the higher-specced PS4/X720 which will make said consoles their primary development platforms after launch (likely around 2014)
  4. If rumors of a 8GB onboard HDD are true, then points #2 and #3 will accellerate significantly, as publishers will see poor tie ratios of DLC on major tentpole IPs which will be arguably the #1 or #2 concern of next-gen revenue consers
  5. The tablet will be under-utilized by 3rd parties, and be a potential boondoggle in terms of cost to pack in with the WiiU which may hurt the console (e.g. WiiU won't be at the $249 Wii price tag, which was huge for its success against far more expensive consoles)
  6. WiiU will sell very well for the first 2 years (better than comparables for the X360 and PS3, but worse than the Wii), then see significant declines in 2015 as the PS4/X720 iterations soak up market share from consumers
  7. Will lead to 35m to 50m LTD sales - highly dependant on what MS/Sony do for deployment, and HDD space of WiiU.

I disagree.  The Wii's recent decline could just as easily be attributed to Nintendo's lack of support as any third party.  And third party games weren't responsible for the Wii's early success, Nintendo was.  Guitar Hero 3, for example, sold absurdly well on the Wii, but the Wii didn't take off because of Guitar Hero; it was available for all consoles, after all.  The Wii took off because many of the people who bought it for Wii Sports were the same people who would be interested in a game like Guitar Hero.  You make it sound as if the Wii had massive third party attention at the beginning of it's life and that's what was responsible for its phenomenal sales.  Where was Bioshock?  GTA 4?  Assassin's Creed?  Batman?  Street Fighter?  Resident Evil?  Fact is, Nintendo's games and ingenuity (including the cheaper price point) are what drove its sales.

As far as your numbered points, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but pretty much every prediction you've made is either premature or completely unwarranted.  A regression of new IPs?  Why?  They have an innovative new control interface, and in case you haven't noticed, touch screens are all the rage these days...  And you have no idea what the system specs are, whether or not 3rd parties will embrace it or the touch-screen, what the LTD sales will be, or for that matter what Microsoft and Sony have in store for their next consoles.



Ahhh maybe the Wii U should've been an Ultra HD 4000p console? :D Then maybe itll be a couple generations ahead.

Im using generation by the definition of the people that do not know what a generation is ^^.



mrstickball said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
mrstickball said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

"I would imagine that due to the release schedule, Sony and Microsoft can maneuver knowing the WiiU specs, resulting with more powerful consoles at a better price-performance ratio, therefore a better value proposition for consumers."

Specs are not value for most gamers. That is a delusion the enthusiasts keep telling themselves. They said it about the PSP versus the DS. Even when the Wii started to falter, it wasn't because people magically realized the specs were too low, it was the games.

I mean, how hard is it to understand that with video game systems, the games are the real value proposition?

Incidentally, the games so far look really uninteresting (I don't care if many are tech demos, they are really dumb ones), and that is the reason to doubt this system, not this stupid myth about console wars being decided by the most powerful system.

And the Wii proved that without similar power levels of the other comparable consoles, it won't get the same games. Therefore, system performance does play a part in the scheme of things - if you have a PS4/X720 at similar power levels, and the WiiU at 50 or 60%, I would imagine that developers may pidgeonhole it like they did the Wii. That is why power matters.


No, developers proved they didn't want to work on the Wii. Again, the specs matter to the enthusiasts (which includes people who make games), not to the mainstream gamers (which counts people that buy GTA and CoD).

Unless that is what you meant, but you implied that developers get to call the shots, and the will of the customers isn't to be taken into account.

The customers chose ever console generation winner, not the developers. And specs only mattered to them when Nintendo wasn't making more powerful systems, as the Playstation 1 and 2 weren't the leader in specs.

That is what I meant - not just developers, but publishers that analyze the benefits of the consoles to produce best practices for their titles. The developers will want develop for whatever is the easiest, best system to develop on. That includes horsepower (or ease of utilizing horsepower to achieve a specific development goal), SDKs, and ancillary features to the cosnole that may have an impact on the development cycle. You said developers didn't want to develop on the Wii - I have to ask 'why didn't they want to develop on the Wii?'. Was it due to the lack of technical specs which required significant retooling to make a game that ran on X360/PS3 to run on the Wii? Or was it something that had nothing to do with specs? That is what I am concerned about for the WiiU - especially in the hard drive department.

Developers do choose the console generation winners. We've seen time and time again that as major IPs are established, developed, promoted and so on, they establish winners and losers among the consoles - each generation, we see the winner based on the games that are produced for a console's library. In the case of the PS1/2 specifications, its important to note the PS1 had a distinct advantage over both other systems due to storage device and ease-of-development (N64 had the more costly and limited cartridge drive, while the Saturn required developer knowledge of Assemble and working with a very difficult processor). With the PS2, it was arguably the only console to win a generation which was inferior to the GC/XBX in most technical departments, but has been the only console to have that distinction out of the past few generations.

Oh please, go and take a marketing course. The creators of a product are not the ones to create the success, it is the customers, and always the customers. Developers do research to see where their customers are and possibly will be in the future.



Linkasf said:

Oh please, go and take a marketing course. The creators of a product are not the ones to create the success, it is the customers, and always the customers. Developers do research to see where their customers are and possibly will be in the future.


Even then, outside of independent developers and a handful of really high profile studios the publisher (not the developer) decides what game is actually produced and what platform it is released to.

Countless developers have wanted to make a particular game for a particular platform and these games were never produced because they couldn't find a publisher who was willing to fund the project.