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Forums - General - President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran is a man of peace.

Xcellent post SamuelRSmith. (EDIT both of them) It's exactly how I see it.



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Everyone complaining about capitalism and globalisation:

Look, the very basis of those two ideals is that some people have to be poor. There have to be poor people to do the jobs that nobody else wants to do. People have to die to make room for other people being born. If one person is profiting, another person SOMEWHERE must be making a loss.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but in my opinion, it's the best system we've thought of. Communism is, of course, the alternative, but it fails to reward work, and full equality is impossible. Communism vs. Capitalism is a debate for another time, anyway.

Ahmadeninejad's system is not Communism, it's Sharia law (I dare say, dictatorship). It takes away personal freedoms and forces people to follow the laws of a religion which is, like all religions, somewhat outdated.

Maybe worldwide Communism could work. Worldwide Sharia could not.

EDIT: Oh, he can do what he wants in his own country. When he starts to threaten other countries, criticise the most popular form of government and (for god's sake) develop nuclear weapons, he needs to be stopped, and quickly.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Kantor said:

Everyone complaining about capitalism and globalisation:

Look, the very basis of those two ideals is that some people have to be poor. There have to be poor people to do the jobs that nobody else wants to do. People have to die to make room for other people being born. If one person is profiting, another person SOMEWHERE must be making a loss.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but in my opinion, it's the best system we've thought of. Communism is, of course, the alternative, but it fails to reward work, and full equality is impossible. Communism vs. Capitalism is a debate for another time, anyway.

Ahmadeninejad's system is not Communism, it's Sharia law (I dare say, dictatorship). It takes away personal freedoms and forces people to follow the laws of a religion which is, like all religions, somewhat outdated.

Maybe worldwide Communism could work. Worldwide Sharia could not.

EDIT: Oh, he can do what he wants in his own country. When he starts to threaten other countries, criticise the most popular form of government and (for god's sake) develop nuclear weapons, he needs to be stopped, and quickly.

Too late. He's probably got an Arsenal with more depth than that of the football team.



SamuelRSmith said:
The only issue with Africa is that they don't get enough globalisation (which is what I assume you mean by "global economic system"). In 2000, only 0.6% of North America's imports came from the poorest countries (which will mainly be sub-Saharan Africa), 0.5% of Europe's, and 0.3% of Japan's. Indeed, of the total imports in 2000 of the richest countries (NA, Europe, and Japan), only a total of 0.5% came from the least developed countries. This is actually less than the 1980s, where the figure was 0.9%.

And it's obvious why, Africa simply doesn't make much worth importing. They should be, however, the continent in rich in land, labour, and a whole range of minerals and fuels - but there isn't the investment to tap into it. Many often blame the situation of the poorest countries on the fact that the wealthiest exploit them, this isn't true. Multi-national corporations often get the blame, and yet, they simply don't exist in any meaningful way in these countries - the latest data for foreign direct investment in Africa that I can find is 1998, where FDI into the entire continent was a mere $8.3bn (down on 1997, btw, by 12%). This is pitiful, foreign direct invesment into just the UK in 2005 was $165bn.

Simply put, it's not that the West exploits Africa, it's simply that the West doesn't interact with Africa. Aside from aid (which is wasted money), the West might aswell just not exist for modern Africa. But, can you blaim the multi-nationals? They want to invest in places where they can get high returns on their investments. Poor infrastructure, high crime rates, uneducated work forces, and corruption at every level prevents this. All of these are results of poor governance from the leaders of Africa itself, you can blame this on the colonial days of old Europe, but not on the modern global economic structure.

Doesn't mean the West and China export a crap load of resources out of Africa into Europe/USA/China. Yes, aid is wasted money and corporations won't invest in Africa because of the many corrupt regimes that exist there, I never denied that. Many of the dictators in Africa were supported by the USA during the cold war might I add. Like Mobutu in Congo and the murder of Patrice Lumumba(joint effort of the Belgian and USA government basically, with the Belgian government taking the moral guilt)

I hope you do know that the West dumps its goods(food, etc) into Africa for very very cheap prices disrupting the local systems that exist there which as I said before is an important way for them to survive. People are driven into cities because of this dis-rupture. American second-hand clothes for example are the most important import good in Tanzania. Dumped there at extremely low prices. Pretty much unfair competition.

And as I said is Lake Victoria a good example of what I'm trying to say. They released the "nijlsbaars"(dutch word don't know the english word for it, sorry) in the Lake so industrial fisheries could make millions of dollars from them. The fish they released however started to eat other fishes disrupting the local communities around the Lake(local fishermen). They also disrupted the biodiversity in the Lake(ecological cost) They were forced to leave their land and test their luck in the city.   

You can't deny that the West/China is importing all the resources and "exporting" all the social and ecological costs. 

 

You can most certainly blame the modern global economic structure. Yes, people have different visions about this subject(which is shown in the international debate), but that doesn't mean only one vision is the truth and all others are false. 



Samus Aran said:
highwaystar101 said:
Samus Aran said:
highwaystar101 said:
He is a peaceful man.

It's just that the kind of peace he wants will only come about by threatening the rest of the world to conform on pain of death... Kinda defeats the object.

Cause the Western peace is so much better right? You know except for the fact we're destroying our world and the south is paying for all the ecological and social costs while the north is leeching from their back.

With north I mean Europa/USA and with south I mean mostly Africa, but south america and parts of Asia as well.

Because of our global economical system 9 million people die of starvation each year in AFRICA alone. It's destroying the local agriculture which is/was the primary source of survival for many people in the world. A lot of people will die for our global economical system. A lot. 

A. Are you suggesting that if president Ahmadinejad conquers the world through a bloody genocidal war, all of that would stop? Is a better system of peace "do as we say or you will die"?

B. I know that the world is unbalanced and we are causing vast amounts of damage to it and exploiting the poor. But I fail to see how that has anything to do with trying to reason that their way of achieving peace through threats and violence to force conformity is better than our way of achieving peace through diplomacy, with violence most often being a last resort.

No, I'm just saying that the West isn't better then the Rest and that we should stop thinking that the way of the West is a normal path to take. The path the West took(Rise of the West, and the Great Divergence) wasn't normal. Why should other people be forced to follow something?

Just because the Pax America is very strict and focused on international organisations doesn't mean that there aren't any better systems out there. There's clearly a fundamental problem with the USA. If everyone followed the example of the USA then we'd need 5 extra planets... Participation in the world market doesn't solve the problems of the poor countries like many people say. In fact, it makes it even worse. Europa/USA only make up for 20% of the world population yet they own 70% of the wealth in the world.  

You can judge about Ahmadinejad all you want, but in the end, we aren't much better(we are however a lot better in treating our own people better then Ahmadinejad is doing in Iran, obviously). At least not for the south(Africa, south america, parts of Asia, etc.)

To be honest, my original comment was made in passing and didn't expect a debate. So I'll keep this short.

...

The foundation stone of western society is freedom of speech. We recognise that we are not perfect in any form, and we allow our population to voice their opinion on what they believe would build better the society. People are allowed to influence a change in their government, people don't have to accept the way society is ran, nobody is forced to follow any doctrine other than free speech (which in itself can be questioned).

But people in Iran don't have this freedom of speech, they are ranked by 'Reporters without borders' as 172/175 for press freedom. People in Iran cannot question their government, or at least not for long. The Iranian government doesn't feel as though it should be questioned, it feels as though it has some divine infallible right to run the country how they feel, and everyone has to follow suit.

Now you said at the end of your first statement "Why should people be forced to follow something?", which society best suits your view?

...

You talk about (in essence) how western society driven by capitalism is destroying the world and ploughing through resources. I recognise that this is true, and I am a sceptic of both capitalism and communism. We may not know of a better system, but we also facilitate change. Can you think of how this space age economy is going to be ran? Then suggest it to your government and your countrymen, I'm sure they'll be most impressed.

Yes, things are far from perfect and if a better society exists which would allow for equality and a high standard of free living, then I would be the first in line, and our system provides the key for adopting any future forms of government that may operate better. 

...

This has gotten derailed fast. Let's go back to my original point. President Ahmadinejad would only want peace if his opposition are either eradicated or converted. I think our method of keeping peace is somewhat better. This is the central point to my original argument, and I think I have a valid point there.



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Ok, I just re-read my last post. I wasn't very good lol.



highwaystar101 said:
Samus Aran said:
highwaystar101 said:
Samus Aran said:
highwaystar101 said:
He is a peaceful man.

It's just that the kind of peace he wants will only come about by threatening the rest of the world to conform on pain of death... Kinda defeats the object.

Cause the Western peace is so much better right? You know except for the fact we're destroying our world and the south is paying for all the ecological and social costs while the north is leeching from their back.

With north I mean Europa/USA and with south I mean mostly Africa, but south america and parts of Asia as well.

Because of our global economical system 9 million people die of starvation each year in AFRICA alone. It's destroying the local agriculture which is/was the primary source of survival for many people in the world. A lot of people will die for our global economical system. A lot. 

A. Are you suggesting that if president Ahmadinejad conquers the world through a bloody genocidal war, all of that would stop? Is a better system of peace "do as we say or you will die"?

B. I know that the world is unbalanced and we are causing vast amounts of damage to it and exploiting the poor. But I fail to see how that has anything to do with trying to reason that their way of achieving peace through threats and violence to force conformity is better than our way of achieving peace through diplomacy, with violence most often being a last resort.

No, I'm just saying that the West isn't better then the Rest and that we should stop thinking that the way of the West is a normal path to take. The path the West took(Rise of the West, and the Great Divergence) wasn't normal. Why should other people be forced to follow something?

Just because the Pax America is very strict and focused on international organisations doesn't mean that there aren't any better systems out there. There's clearly a fundamental problem with the USA. If everyone followed the example of the USA then we'd need 5 extra planets... Participation in the world market doesn't solve the problems of the poor countries like many people say. In fact, it makes it even worse. Europa/USA only make up for 20% of the world population yet they own 70% of the wealth in the world.  

You can judge about Ahmadinejad all you want, but in the end, we aren't much better(we are however a lot better in treating our own people better then Ahmadinejad is doing in Iran, obviously). At least not for the south(Africa, south america, parts of Asia, etc.)

...

This has gotten derailed fast. Let's go back to my original point. President Ahmadinejad would only want peace if his opposition are either eradicated or converted. I think our method of keeping peace is somewhat better. This is the central point to my original argument, and I think I have a valid point there.

I'll only comment on the on topic part seeing as you want to keep this on topic(and you pretty much agreed with what I said actually, you just have a different vision on how things need to be done)

--

Now what you just said about Ahmadinejad actually reminds me of Israel. Yet most of the Western countries support them.

And yes you have a valid point. But just because the current method of keeping peace is better then in the past doesn't mean it can't be improved upon.  



Samus Aran said:
highwaystar101 said:
Samus Aran said:
highwaystar101 said:
Samus Aran said:
highwaystar101 said:
He is a peaceful man.

It's just that the kind of peace he wants will only come about by threatening the rest of the world to conform on pain of death... Kinda defeats the object.

Cause the Western peace is so much better right? You know except for the fact we're destroying our world and the south is paying for all the ecological and social costs while the north is leeching from their back.

With north I mean Europa/USA and with south I mean mostly Africa, but south america and parts of Asia as well.

Because of our global economical system 9 million people die of starvation each year in AFRICA alone. It's destroying the local agriculture which is/was the primary source of survival for many people in the world. A lot of people will die for our global economical system. A lot. 

A. Are you suggesting that if president Ahmadinejad conquers the world through a bloody genocidal war, all of that would stop? Is a better system of peace "do as we say or you will die"?

B. I know that the world is unbalanced and we are causing vast amounts of damage to it and exploiting the poor. But I fail to see how that has anything to do with trying to reason that their way of achieving peace through threats and violence to force conformity is better than our way of achieving peace through diplomacy, with violence most often being a last resort.

No, I'm just saying that the West isn't better then the Rest and that we should stop thinking that the way of the West is a normal path to take. The path the West took(Rise of the West, and the Great Divergence) wasn't normal. Why should other people be forced to follow something?

Just because the Pax America is very strict and focused on international organisations doesn't mean that there aren't any better systems out there. There's clearly a fundamental problem with the USA. If everyone followed the example of the USA then we'd need 5 extra planets... Participation in the world market doesn't solve the problems of the poor countries like many people say. In fact, it makes it even worse. Europa/USA only make up for 20% of the world population yet they own 70% of the wealth in the world.  

You can judge about Ahmadinejad all you want, but in the end, we aren't much better(we are however a lot better in treating our own people better then Ahmadinejad is doing in Iran, obviously). At least not for the south(Africa, south america, parts of Asia, etc.)

...

This has gotten derailed fast. Let's go back to my original point. President Ahmadinejad would only want peace if his opposition are either eradicated or converted. I think our method of keeping peace is somewhat better. This is the central point to my original argument, and I think I have a valid point there.

I'll only comment on the on topic part seeing as you want to keep this on topic(and you pretty much agreed with what I said actually, you just have a different vision on how things need to be done)

--

Now what you just said about Ahmadinejad actually reminds me of Israel. Yet most of the Western countries support them.

And yes you have a valid point. But just because the current method of keeping peace is better then in the past doesn't mean it can't be improved upon.  

Yes, I think we agree that there is a problem. We just disagree on how it should be approached, which is fine.

...

I recognise that our current method is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't think it ever will be perfect, just continuously adapting and improving. But I also believe that our current system is a good way to facilitate change for a better system in the future.



@Samus Aran
I dont see how making the west look bad makes the president of Iran a peaceful president.Yes the west has problems ,but it certainly doesnt make us as bad as a megolamaniac who has visions of armageddon.



"They will know heghan belongs to the helghast"

"England expects that everyman will do his duty"

"we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"

 

NKAJ said:
@Samus Aran
I dont see how making the west look bad makes the president of Iran a peaceful president.Yes the west has problems ,but it certainly doesnt make us as bad as a megolamaniac who has visions of armageddon.

What big religion doesn't have visions of armageddon? That's more then 3 billion people that believe in that "crap".  

And does the USA have any proof Iran is making nuclear weapons? Nope, just like they attacked Iraq because they had proof of nuclear weapons in Iraq, but they found nothing.