It's so funny. I quoted you here, but there's hardly anything to respond to. The vast majority of your post is just empty accusations of intellectual dishonesty with very little to back it up. It's like the second you start an argument with anybody on this site, your go to tactic is to start trying to accuse the opposition of being biased. Whatever little substance your post has, is dealt with in my responses contained further down in this post. 

First off, thanks for the list! I had no idea that Nintendo fans were so good at updating and keeping such a great list. It's got a really nice table, with a release date, publisher, region info, etc. The SIE list isn't nearly as well done or readable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sony_Interactive_Entertainment_video_games#1994

But now that I have access to that list, I realize there are even more games I forgot about. Fitness Boxing for example should be considered a 2018 game, since it came out in 2018 in two of the three major regions, and was only delayed by a couple of weeks in the NA market. Next we have The World Ends With You Final Remix which should be included in 2018, as long as we are including Octopath and Bravely Default II. After all, it's an exclusive game published by Square Enix just like those other two were. Finally we have Sushi Striker, which has Nintendo EPD listed as one of the developers. 

So I forgot about 12 games in total, four of which were from 2018, and five of which were from 2020. And had I not been building on xPhenom08x's list, I guarantee you I would have forgotten about Super Mario Party, and Mario Aces, which would have brought the total up to 6 games that I forgot from 2018. 

But the sad thing is you forgot a ton of 2018 games in your own list. Scroll down to see the second time I quoted you in this post, and the explanation. 

Wow Rol. Accuse much? What NightlyPoe is saying is that the argument changed from "Gee, it's weird that Nintendo hasn't announced their 2020 plans yet" to, "Gee, it looks like Nintendo doesn't have much for 2020.", in the same manner that a political argument can change from "Gee Donald Trump might be the Republican nominee.", to "Gee Donald Trump is about to get his 2nd Supreme Court confirmation along party lines". But please keep conflating that with "moving the goalposts!". There isn't goalpost moving going on in this thread, (at least not by the people saying 2020 is disappointing). What you are calling goalpost moving is simply an attempt by rational people to take into account the fact that not all games are created equal. But we'll get more on that further on down in this post. 

Okay Zorg, you forgot a lot of games. First off, my own list had to do with a sales comparison, and it is generally understood that listing Labo in a sales comparison is interpreted as all three Labo Kits. Your own list on the other hand has more to do with release schedules of games, so it should include all three labo kits. After all, the Variety Kit, Robot Kit, and Vehicle Kit are all listed on the Wikipedia page that you gave me (your own friggin source) as three separate games. Each kit has it's own Metacritic/Opencritic review score. Meaning, reviewers treated them as separate games, because they are. Not to mention that vehicle kit has a completely different release date from the other two kits. 

So that's already two games you forgot from 2018. 

And like I said earlier Fitness Boxing was a 2018 title. 

Then we have Sushi Striker, and Poke'mon Quest. It makes sense that Poke'mon Quest would be excluded from my own sales related list, but not your list, which was dealing with the 2018 vs 2020 release schedules. 

Finally, you forgot about The World Ends With You, as I stated before. 

So despite having that fantastic Wikipedia page that you linked to, you still managed to forget 6 games from 2018. If I were as much of an accusatory dick as you, I'd post something about you having an agenda. But unlike you, I understand that we are all human and make mistakes. 

Okay Rol, notice how you're using reason to exclude Octopath? How about not counting Labo as three separate games? That's the same kind of reasoning that you and other people in this thread are going to call goalpostmoving. But you're not trying to move the Goalposts by excluding Octopath, or Labo you're merely taking into account the bigger picture. Octopath wasn't a game made by Nintendo, so it makes sense that it shouldn't be included in a thread about Nintendo's lack of output in 2020. Labo may be three games, but they are all toys, and not something that's going to get gamers on this forum fired up, so it makes sense to exclude that as well. The sad thing is that you use your own logic to exclude games that should be excluded, but when other people attempt to do the same you start accusing them of "goalpostmoving!". 

And to make matters worse your attempt to move Cadence of Hyrule into 2020 is actual goalpostmoving! You're trying to move the goalposts from what new games were released in 2020, to what games were released with a physical edition in 2020. You're literally accusing others of doing something, and then doing that very thing yourself. Mitch McConnell would be proud!

Oh, and just for clarification, had you never said anything about goalpostmoving, I never would have accused your Cadence of Hyrule idea as goalpostmoving. I would have disagreed with it, and stated why, but I never would have said "Moving the Goalposts!" Why? Because, I'm not an accusatory dick like you and others in this thread. 

But anyway on to my main point...

There are two ways to look at 2020. We can be rational, only including standalone games that are new, and either made directly by Nintendo, or made by a 2nd party that Nintendo has loaned an IP to, or contracted out. That's the first way to look at Nintendo's 2020. I'll get to the second way in a minute here. 

Comparing 2018 to 2020 with this first method gives us the following two lists...

2018
Kirby Star Allies
Mario Tennis Aces
Torna
Super Mario Party
Poke'mon Let's Go*
Smash Bros. Ultimate

*Let's Go is not a simple remake. It should count as it's own game. 

2020
Clubhouse Games
Paper Mario
Age of Calamity
Animal Crossing

That's 4 games vs 6 games. 

But the problem with that method is that people are going to complain that some games were missed in 2020, and should count. And thus the barrel scraping begins. They'll try listing 3D All Stars, and Pikmin 3, and all the 2020 ports. But 2018 had ports of it's own, so we'd have to add those games to the list. Next they'll try listing remakes. But 2018 also has remakes. They'll try adding in Bravely Default II, despite it not being a Nintendo game, but that just invites Octopath, and The World Ends with you. Listing all these games also invites adding Poke'mon Quest, and Sushi Strikers to the 2018 list. They'll insist that Mario Kart AC Cars should count, but that brings three Labo kits, and Fitness Boxing to the 2018 list. For all the barrel scraping that the 2020 Nintendo Defense League wants to do, there are plenty of 2018 games that would also qualify, using their own logic. And thus we wind up with the following out of control lists, using the 2nd method...

2020
Clubhouse Games
Paper Mario
Age of Calamity
Animal Crossing
Tokyo Mirage Sessions
Xenoblade HD
Mystery Dungeon Remake
3D All Stars
Pikmin 3
Mario RC Cars
Bravely Default II (if it even comes out this year)

2018
Kirby Star Allies
Mario Tennis Aces
Torna
Super Mario Party
Poke'mon Let's Go
Smash Bros. Ultimate
Captain Toad
Bayonetta
Bayonetta 2
Tropical Freeze
Hyrule Warriors
Octopath
The World Ends With You
Sushi Striker
Poke'mon Quest
Labo Vehicle Kit
Labo Variety Kit
Labo Robot Kit
Fitness Boxing

That's 11 games from 2020, vs 19 games from 2018. NEARLY DOUBLE! 

Now let's add context to both those years. 2018 was directly after a massive launch year blowout in which we got a big new Zelda, and a big new Mario. So we shouldn't have expected all that much. 2020 on the other hand gives Nintendo's Mario Odyssey and BotW teams three years to come up with sequels. And remember that Majora's Mask was made in a short time after Ocarina of time too. So we should have reasonably expected both Odyssey 2 and BotW 2 in 2020. 

Now of course, some people might want to object that 2020 needs to be seen in the context of Coronavirus. But that just opens the door up to pointing out that Sony's SIE studios are managing to get four exciting games out this year, which just so happens to be the last year of the PS4. What is Nintendo's track record on delivering 1st party content in the final year of their consoles' life cycle again? And remember that Sony has to make their games at a much higher level of graphics, since the PS4 Pro is so much more powerful than the Switch. That takes a lot more work, than making a graphically limited game such as Paper Mario. So why is it that Sony is managing to get four brand new exciting games out the door in the final year of their system's life cycle despite coronavirus, but Nintendo can barely manage despite help from a 2nd party dev to make Hyrule Warriors 2 (all the while Nintendo is smack dab in the middle of their console's life cycle)? 


Edit: And to add insult to injury the 3D All Stars collection is a major letdown compared to Super Mario World + All Stars. That SNES title had five games, four of which were completely remade using modern SNES graphics. If 3D All Stars were made with the same amount of love, SM64 and Sunshine would be redone in Odyssey style graphics. Super Mario Galaxy 2, and 3D World would be in there as well. 


Edit: And to add even more context Nintendo was still supporting 3DS in 2018, with releases like Return of Samus. 

Im starting to see that random forum posters are now trying to dismiss the affect a global pandemic could have had on Nintendo. One poster claims the delay should only been 2 months lol, somehow he is an expert. Apparently 4 games from Sony during the pandemic is proof Nintendo should have more and this is all according to some random person on the internet. Armchair analyst at its finest! This thread is really starting to get embarrassing, its nothing more than this does or doesn't count because I said so. I know better than Nintendo because I said so, Nintendo is lazy and clearly struggling because I said so. My advice to you Cerebore is give that advice to Sony because clearly you are a big fan. Ninty will clearly continue to do what they believe is best because they said so!

Sometimes I have the feeling that some people have the impression that when Nintendo in-house development teams don't come out with something new for some time that it means that they actually aren't doing anything. So even if we count 2020 as bad Nintendo year, do you actually think that these in-house teams were just too lazy that year, that they just took a long break and think: "You know what, the Nintendo Switch sells gangbusters on its own with evergreen titles - why bother to work on something new!" All these teams are hard at work but unfortunately, for us outsiders their work is sometimes invisible, sometimes for as long a 3 - 5 years after their last game. Projects get cancelled, re-worked, evolved, etc... that's just normal in creative jobs. What exactly has Retro Studios done in the last 6 years? Nothing, right? The whole comparisons between Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and between years is useless! Creative jobs are measured by their ultimate success (both commercially and by acclaim) and not by quantity units (of different games in our context).

Honestly, which AAA developer is better: 1. The one which releases 3 games in 5 years, each selling around 3 mil. or 2. the one that releases only one game in 5 years but sells 25 mil., receives several game of the year rewards and nominations and is generally accepted as an instant modern classic?

The other question we have to ask ourselves? Do we want high quality games that come at a cost (only few releases) or a fair quantity amount of games that come at a cost (only mediocre to good games)?

The problem with this choice is we need to understand Nintendo is not only a game developer, but they are a platform supplier and they are by far the one with most responsibility of having a constant supply of their own games 

I'm more empathetic with Sony releasing less games because their console got a shit ton of high quality AAA third party exclusives every year

Opposed to 3DS and DS, Switch didn't managed to get any 3rd party blockbuster release yet. I think Monster Hunter Switch will be the first if it's really a thing

All their 3rd party blockbusters (Overwatch, The Witcher, Dragon Quest) are old ports and many people already played them on PS4, PC or whatever 

Personally 

I'm really satisfied with current 3rd party support of Switch, but that's mostly because I really do enjoy indies and don't mind to play 7th gen ports because I missed most of them. Plus I bought my Switch late 2019, so Switch backlog is already wonderful 

However for people who kept in touch with releases most of time and are waiting only for new high profile stuff it has been a very painful year, the weakest for Switch so far and those people deserves their space to complain without having some Nintendo fans harassing them all the time 

Rol you are treating the thread as if it was a prediction thread, with the prediction that Nintendo would have zero new releases for the rest of 2020. But it wasn't that as evidenced by this part of OP's post...

I realize that there's a good chance this will be remedied by the end of the month. If nothing else, their fiscal year is ending and they'll want to brag about their slate and Xenoblade seems like it's already been rated in some territories so it's probably coming soonish. But I wanted to mark this strange moment in time.

So OP acknowledges that Nintendo will likely have a release in Xenoblade HD, but the thread was predicting that Nintendo would have no releases in 2020? That just doesn't make any sense. The OP makes a lot more  sense when taken as OP showing general dismay at Nintendo's overall 2020 output, and communication with fans.

TWEWY Final Remix was published by Nintendo outside of Japan, which means Nintendo did in fact have something to do with it. Whether a game is digital or physical doesn't matter. All that matters is that the game was released in 2018. But I do understand your complaints. And that's my point. We can be rational, only including new non-toy, non-free, developed games by Nintendo, or at the very least containing a Nintendo IP, or being a 2nd party offering. Or we can throw reason to the wind, and start including basically anything and everything. The funny thing is that using either method shows 2018 to be far superior to 2020. My argument is a dilemma style argument.

1. Either we can can include only non-toy, non-free, games developed by Nintendo, or at the very least containing a Nintendo IP, or being a 2nd party offering.

2. Or we can include virtually every game under the sun.

3. If we use method 1. 2018 has a better lineup.

4.If we use method 2 2018 still has a better lineup.

5. Therefore 2018 has a better lineup.

I already made a post naming the four games that Sony has for 2020, and no, I didn't say they were all for PS4. Sales aren't the be all and end all of whether a game is exciting or not. Earthbound, Musha, and a ton of other 16 bit games never sold well, but are now highly sought after, and emulated. Animal Crossing took longer than expected to finish as well. You can't use delays at one company to dismiss games, but ignore the delays of another company.

I'd be grateful if you presented something other than a strawman argument. Thanks.

P.S. I own more games for Nintendo consoles, than I do for Sony consoles. That should tell you where my fandom lies.

I agree. I can remember that Nintendo's President Shuntaro Furukawa said not too long ago that (on a Q&A of a financial report I guess) that they are currently not interested in buying 3rd party studios because it would be very difficult to infuse into them the Nintendo identity (which stands for a special Nintendo quality, creativity and innovation). Although, I personally think there are lots of talented 3rd party studios around that would complement Nintendo's lineup with more diversity and the respective 3rd party studio's own quality identity, even if we would agree with this statement it still begs the question why then not build-up new in-house teams? They have plenty of money to pay the best talents in the industry and to pay for additional space needed, hell, they could even invent their own talent pool, kind of a Nintendo university to instruct young talented people from the ground-up, surely many of them would want to work for Nintendo afterwards.

It is by far the biggest critic I have on Nintendo: Why not use some of your money to build new development teams? It would ultimately result in having much less (quality) software droughts (and would quell most of such critical threads like this one).

Nintendo has been hiring new graduates to be part of their development teams so they're kinda doing what you're saying in the last sentence of your first paragraph.

As far as developing teams, it would take months (if not years) before they could even start up, let alone develop a game. Nintendo is already managing multiple teams within EPD and teams such as iQue, Retro Studios, NDCube, and Monolith Soft, let alone working with developers such as Intelligent Systems, HAL, Game Freak, Good Feel, Grezzo, Next Level Games, Camelot, Genius Sonority, and Sora, Ltd. There are other teams and studios Nintendo has or are working with that we don't even mention much because they either are working on smaller titles or are mostly support teams.

I don't know what's the mindset of Nintendo in regards on what they spend and how much they spend on projects. But they seem to have a grasp on what they need or not need at this time. If they feel that a new in-house team will not be financially worth it, then that's their stance.

Edit: Not to mention Nintendo is continuously working with third party developers to develop new games. Astral Chain from Platinum Games is an example, as well as the recently announced Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity from Koei Tecmo. Koei Tecmo even developed Fire Emblem Three Houses alongside some of Intelligent Systems' team members.

I'm no business guru, but I do wish they swept up ATLUS while they had the chance. 

I agree with most of your essay but this makes no sense. Divisive or not, TLOUs is one of the most impactful and discussed games this year (probably the most commented on SNS after Animal Crossing), and is among the best sellers. With such high value production in both artistic and technical sense are very hard to say it's not a stand out title 

Pokemon Sword/Shield was also pretty damn divisive, but I don't see people regarding it as a non standout title (well, I actually see, but let's pretend I'm right cause it's not the point) 

It's insane how this thread has developed over the past few months. I'm not even sure what it is supposed to be about at this point to be honest. I realise it must've been difficult for some people when there were (almost) no new games with firm release dates. But with Clubhouse Games, Paper Mario, Hyrule Warriors, Pikmin and 3D Allstars we did get a decent amount of release dates announced. Sure, it's not as good as some other years - but 2021 is probably going to be a standout year in terms of titles with the lockdown situation getting better and Nintendo adapting to home office work. You can tell for example that the 3D World remake was supposed to be a 2020 title that got pushed back two months. It's not ideal, but it's not worth the drama.

What I don't understand is why people keep writing novels about how bad the 2020 lineup is. I have hardly ever seen a thread with such walls of text lol.