| RolStoppable said: Well, the original poster now confirmed that his thread is about goalpost moving. It started as "no games scheduled for release", but he laid it out in the open that it's actually not only about only new games, but also additional criteria, so Clubhouse Games is half a game at best and Mario Kart Live doesn't count to begin with. Using your analogy, teenager 1 would be complaining about not finding a girlfriend, teenager 2 would then tell him about an attractive and smart girl his age that also happens to be interested in teenager 1, to which teenager 1 responds that she isn't good enough for him because she has only B cups. So it turns out that people in here understood what this thread is about: Subjective tantrums that are thinly disguised as objective criticism. The point raised by @AngryLittleAlchemist remains true, there's a lack of nuance in this thread. Over the past two days we had many people in here telling you that you've lost your marbles, but NightlyPoe frames those responses as people trying to convince others that Nintendo has been having a good year and repeats how there have been only three new games (that is, after the goalposts have been moved as far as they could) to arrive at a conclusion that the disappointment expressed in this thread has been reasonable, including your posts specifically. He had a bigger problem with the people responding to you than your posts. In the end we have a Nintendo year that is on a similar level as 2018 in terms of quality (quantity-wise, all Switch years have been about the same). 2018 saw a bunch of ports to pad out the lineup and was very backloaded in terms of big titles (all of them in the holiday quarter). 2020 has a better spread of the big titles, but the padding is there all the same. Of course neither year can compete with 2017 or 2019, but people should remember that those years rank among the best of all-time in terms of first party output on any console. If you use those years as base level, then yes, 2020 has been bad. But if you display more intellectual honesty and look at the big picture where other consoles - past and present - are included to gauge the quality of a first party lineup, then 2020 is okay in both an overall context or a Nintendo-only context. What's getting on people's nerves when disappointment is expressed is not the disappointment itself, but the tremendous hyperbole and intellectual dishonesty (= moving the goalposts) that goes along with it. When you say things like Sony has been doing a better job than Nintendo in 2020 or write a condescending post like the one I quoted here, then you better be prepared to receive on the same level as you dish out. On the same note, the size of the active userbase on this forum means that people know each other. For example, if you are curl-6 and complain about Nintendo, then people already know what's up. Likewise, you've made a name for yourself too. |
It's so funny. I quoted you here, but there's hardly anything to respond to. The vast majority of your post is just empty accusations of intellectual dishonesty with very little to back it up. It's like the second you start an argument with anybody on this site, your go to tactic is to start trying to accuse the opposition of being biased. Whatever little substance your post has, is dealt with in my responses contained further down in this post.
zorg1000 said:
And of those 9 you forgot, 5 were from this year. Well maybe if you're going to do a list war it might be a good idea to do 2 minutes of research. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_products This is literally the first result when googling "Nintendo published games" |
First off, thanks for the list! I had no idea that Nintendo fans were so good at updating and keeping such a great list. It's got a really nice table, with a release date, publisher, region info, etc. The SIE list isn't nearly as well done or readable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sony_Interactive_Entertainment_video_games#1994
But now that I have access to that list, I realize there are even more games I forgot about. Fitness Boxing for example should be considered a 2018 game, since it came out in 2018 in two of the three major regions, and was only delayed by a couple of weeks in the NA market. Next we have The World Ends With You Final Remix which should be included in 2018, as long as we are including Octopath and Bravely Default II. After all, it's an exclusive game published by Square Enix just like those other two were. Finally we have Sushi Striker, which has Nintendo EPD listed as one of the developers.
So I forgot about 12 games in total, four of which were from 2018, and five of which were from 2020. And had I not been building on xPhenom08x's list, I guarantee you I would have forgotten about Super Mario Party, and Mario Aces, which would have brought the total up to 6 games that I forgot from 2018.
But the sad thing is you forgot a ton of 2018 games in your own list. Scroll down to see the second time I quoted you in this post, and the explanation.
RolStoppable said:
That's basically an attempted justification for moving the goalposts. When you make a point, then the facts change, but you want to uphold your original point, you'll have to move the goalposts in a thread like this. But that's not evolution of a conversation, it's the opposite. And yes, I would have prefered a new thread because the example of a thread title you suggested is honest upfront instead of what we have here where it's still attempted to disguise it as something that it isn't. And yes, I disagree with your classification of those new games. Regarding Clubhouse Games, your issue is probably that it's a collection of board games and other small games, of which many are known entities since decades; but the likes of FIFA 21 are also new games despite having fewer changes and additions than Nintendo's Clubhouse Games. Mario Kart Live is a toy, but it's also a game; toy and game aren't mutually exclusive. |
Wow Rol. Accuse much? What NightlyPoe is saying is that the argument changed from "Gee, it's weird that Nintendo hasn't announced their 2020 plans yet" to, "Gee, it looks like Nintendo doesn't have much for 2020.", in the same manner that a political argument can change from "Gee Donald Trump might be the Republican nominee.", to "Gee Donald Trump is about to get his 2nd Supreme Court confirmation along party lines". But please keep conflating that with "moving the goalposts!". There isn't goalpost moving going on in this thread, (at least not by the people saying 2020 is disappointing). What you are calling goalpost moving is simply an attempt by rational people to take into account the fact that not all games are created equal. But we'll get more on that further on down in this post.
| zorg1000 said: like Rol said, 2020 is pretty similar to 2018 with the most notable difference being that one had its biggest game in Dec while the other was in March. Basically you can reshuffle the schedules and make them look the same. 2018 lineup (actual) Feb-Bayonetta 2 March-Kirby Star Allies April-Labo May-Tropical Freeze/Hyrule Warriors June-Mario Tennis Aces July-Captain Toad/Octopath Traveler Sept-Torna Oct-Super Mario Party Nov-Pokemon Lets Go Dec-Smash Bros 2020 linuep (reshuffled) Feb-Toyko Mirage Sessions March-Pokemon Mystery Dungeon April-Clubhouse Games May-Pikmin 3/Xenoblade DE June-Paper Mario July-Bravely Default 2 Sept-Age of Calamity Oct-Mario Kart Live Nov-3D All Stars Dec-Animal Crossing |
Okay Zorg, you forgot a lot of games. First off, my own list had to do with a sales comparison, and it is generally understood that listing Labo in a sales comparison is interpreted as all three Labo Kits. Your own list on the other hand has more to do with release schedules of games, so it should include all three labo kits. After all, the Variety Kit, Robot Kit, and Vehicle Kit are all listed on the Wikipedia page that you gave me (your own friggin source) as three separate games. Each kit has it's own Metacritic/Opencritic review score. Meaning, reviewers treated them as separate games, because they are. Not to mention that vehicle kit has a completely different release date from the other two kits.
So that's already two games you forgot from 2018.
And like I said earlier Fitness Boxing was a 2018 title.
Then we have Sushi Striker, and Poke'mon Quest. It makes sense that Poke'mon Quest would be excluded from my own sales related list, but not your list, which was dealing with the 2018 vs 2020 release schedules.
Finally, you forgot about The World Ends With You, as I stated before.
So despite having that fantastic Wikipedia page that you linked to, you still managed to forget 6 games from 2018. If I were as much of an accusatory dick as you, I'd post something about you having an agenda. But unlike you, I understand that we are all human and make mistakes.
RolStoppable said:
13 physical releases in 2018 (Labo had three, but I don't count Octopath Traveler because it isn't a Nintendo game), 11 physical releases in 2020 (adding Cadence of Hyrule, removing Bravely Default 2 for the same reason as OT in 2018). 2018 has the edge in quantity because of two additional Labo releases, but most people won't assign much weight to that, so 2018 and 2020 really do end up very similar. There's still a slim chance that 2020 gets another Nintendo game, but that won't change the year dramatically when objectivity is applied. Subjectivity is of course an entirely different matter as we have already seen with the announcement of Super Mario 3D All-Stars most recently. In any case, you get a schedule that is close to one retail game per month which means no gaping holes between first party releases. Whether or not you like the games that have been released is a subjective matter, but objectively there have been enough games to set these two Switch years apart from the actual time of darkness that the Wii U was, where gaps of 3+ months between first party releases were common. |
Okay Rol, notice how you're using reason to exclude Octopath? How about not counting Labo as three separate games? That's the same kind of reasoning that you and other people in this thread are going to call goalpostmoving. But you're not trying to move the Goalposts by excluding Octopath, or Labo you're merely taking into account the bigger picture. Octopath wasn't a game made by Nintendo, so it makes sense that it shouldn't be included in a thread about Nintendo's lack of output in 2020. Labo may be three games, but they are all toys, and not something that's going to get gamers on this forum fired up, so it makes sense to exclude that as well. The sad thing is that you use your own logic to exclude games that should be excluded, but when other people attempt to do the same you start accusing them of "goalpostmoving!".
And to make matters worse your attempt to move Cadence of Hyrule into 2020 is actual goalpostmoving! You're trying to move the goalposts from what new games were released in 2020, to what games were released with a physical edition in 2020. You're literally accusing others of doing something, and then doing that very thing yourself. Mitch McConnell would be proud!
Oh, and just for clarification, had you never said anything about goalpostmoving, I never would have accused your Cadence of Hyrule idea as goalpostmoving. I would have disagreed with it, and stated why, but I never would have said "Moving the Goalposts!" Why? Because, I'm not an accusatory dick like you and others in this thread.
But anyway on to my main point...
There are two ways to look at 2020. We can be rational, only including standalone games that are new, and either made directly by Nintendo, or made by a 2nd party that Nintendo has loaned an IP to, or contracted out. That's the first way to look at Nintendo's 2020. I'll get to the second way in a minute here.
Comparing 2018 to 2020 with this first method gives us the following two lists...
2018
Kirby Star Allies
Mario Tennis Aces
Torna
Super Mario Party
Poke'mon Let's Go*
Smash Bros. Ultimate
*Let's Go is not a simple remake. It should count as it's own game.
2020
Clubhouse Games
Paper Mario
Age of Calamity
Animal Crossing
That's 4 games vs 6 games.
But the problem with that method is that people are going to complain that some games were missed in 2020, and should count. And thus the barrel scraping begins. They'll try listing 3D All Stars, and Pikmin 3, and all the 2020 ports. But 2018 had ports of it's own, so we'd have to add those games to the list. Next they'll try listing remakes. But 2018 also has remakes. They'll try adding in Bravely Default II, despite it not being a Nintendo game, but that just invites Octopath, and The World Ends with you. Listing all these games also invites adding Poke'mon Quest, and Sushi Strikers to the 2018 list. They'll insist that Mario Kart AC Cars should count, but that brings three Labo kits, and Fitness Boxing to the 2018 list. For all the barrel scraping that the 2020 Nintendo Defense League wants to do, there are plenty of 2018 games that would also qualify, using their own logic. And thus we wind up with the following out of control lists, using the 2nd method...
2020
Clubhouse Games
Paper Mario
Age of Calamity
Animal Crossing
Tokyo Mirage Sessions
Xenoblade HD
Mystery Dungeon Remake
3D All Stars
Pikmin 3
Mario RC Cars
Bravely Default II (if it even comes out this year)
2018
Kirby Star Allies
Mario Tennis Aces
Torna
Super Mario Party
Poke'mon Let's Go
Smash Bros. Ultimate
Captain Toad
Bayonetta
Bayonetta 2
Tropical Freeze
Hyrule Warriors
Octopath
The World Ends With You
Sushi Striker
Poke'mon Quest
Labo Vehicle Kit
Labo Variety Kit
Labo Robot Kit
Fitness Boxing
That's 11 games from 2020, vs 19 games from 2018. NEARLY DOUBLE!
Now let's add context to both those years. 2018 was directly after a massive launch year blowout in which we got a big new Zelda, and a big new Mario. So we shouldn't have expected all that much. 2020 on the other hand gives Nintendo's Mario Odyssey and BotW teams three years to come up with sequels. And remember that Majora's Mask was made in a short time after Ocarina of time too. So we should have reasonably expected both Odyssey 2 and BotW 2 in 2020.
Now of course, some people might want to object that 2020 needs to be seen in the context of Coronavirus. But that just opens the door up to pointing out that Sony's SIE studios are managing to get four exciting games out this year, which just so happens to be the last year of the PS4. What is Nintendo's track record on delivering 1st party content in the final year of their consoles' life cycle again? And remember that Sony has to make their games at a much higher level of graphics, since the PS4 Pro is so much more powerful than the Switch. That takes a lot more work, than making a graphically limited game such as Paper Mario. So why is it that Sony is managing to get four brand new exciting games out the door in the final year of their system's life cycle despite coronavirus, but Nintendo can barely manage despite help from a 2nd party dev to make Hyrule Warriors 2 (all the while Nintendo is smack dab in the middle of their console's life cycle)?
Edit: And to add insult to injury the 3D All Stars collection is a major letdown compared to Super Mario World + All Stars. That SNES title had five games, four of which were completely remade using modern SNES graphics. If 3D All Stars were made with the same amount of love, SM64 and Sunshine would be redone in Odyssey style graphics. Super Mario Galaxy 2, and 3D World would be in there as well.
Edit: And to add even more context Nintendo was still supporting 3DS in 2018, with releases like Return of Samus.
