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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Skyrim Dawnguard PS3: Punished for choosing wrong console

slowmo said:
You can finish the original game on PS3, I dont believe they sold anyone a guarantee of DLC so no harm done. If the original game was unplayable then fair enough but thats not the case. Im sure Bethesda are still happy they released on the PS3 as it will have been a good revenue booster for not much cost.


You seem to be unaware of the extent. 

Many PS3 users can't even enjoy the game by itself without crashing, infinite loading screens, reduced texture and sevre pop-in, etc. 

This issue goes beyond the DLC. The game in itself IS unplayable. 



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PS3 fans: I'm not buying another Bethesda product until they fix the lag/framerate/etc and bring it up to par with other systems!

Bethesda: Ok, well then I guess we need to delay the DLC until we think the quality is high enough. We aren't going to release until its 100% functional. We don't want to further the label of Bethesda as "half-assed"developers.

PS3 fans: Why is the DLC not coming out waaaaaaaah!



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fillet said:
Don't like it....Play on a PC....Don't got a good PC....Get an Xbox 360....Don't want an Xbox 360.

That's your fucking problem.

Sorry but that's the way it is, by "fucking problem", just to clarify that is not an insult but your situation.

Sick to death of people complaining about inferior ports, gaming is BUSINESS. Not your god given right to pleasure.

If anyone's to blame it's Sony for only having 256MB of system memory that's useable, as opposed to 512 pool that is shared with graphics on the Xbox 360.

There's only so much you can do.



....Reminds me of Doom on the Sega Saturn, it was a slideshow for a frame rate, people didn't blame the developers. They blamed SEGA.

And so they should have!

this, this is the issue;

If anyone's to blame it's Sony for only having 256MB of system memory that's useable, as opposed to 512 pool that is shared with graphics on the Xbox 360.

last gen should have had 1gig of memory  avoid all kinds of issues and limitations we hit with the crappy ram limits in both consoles.... you can see the choking points in dead rising , draw issues in just cause 2... and minecraft... im still surprised it works well on 360... i cant imagine it working well onn the ps3 with 256... the draw distance would have to be reduced so much 

I may be spoiled ive been using 6 gig of ram in PC since 03  (32 now for one PC and the other 16)....felt last gen should have had a minimum of 1gig of ram .... just imagin what could have been done... 



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JOKA_ said:
PS3 fans: I'm not buying another Bethesda product until they fix the lag/framerate/etc and bring it up to par with other systems!

Bethesda: Ok, well then I guess we need to delay the DLC until we think the quality is high enough. We aren't going to release until its 100% functional. We don't want to further the label of Bethesda as "half-assed"developers.

PS3 fans: Why is the DLC not coming out waaaaaaaah!


Pretty much to the point.



Adinnieken said:
mantlepiecek said:
Haha, so now a lack of 5% RAM is very limiting to a release of a DLC?

Kind of hilarious actually. In fact skyrim had a problem at the release itself on PS3, and it was memory leak I believe. Something that didn't exist on 360, and it had nothing to do with RAM and how much of it you have.

You failed maths, didn't you?

218 / 480 = .45416666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666

That's 45% not 5%.

The PS3 has up to 218MB available for the game.  The Xbox 360 has up to 480MB for the game.

Nope.

If PS3 has only 218 MB RAM for games none of the multiplats would have even worked properly on it. GT 5 1280x1080 wouldn't even be possible on it.

PS3 can use both memories for the games, it has been stated by devs themselves.

Did you fail in language btw?

edit : I just noticed. You said PS3 has 218 MB RAM for games and then go on to say that it is 45%. Nope, according to you it is 55% less RAM than the 360, further proving you are both sh!t at maths and language. It is 45% of the total 360 RAM, but 55% less

Further showing how absurd your point is.



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mantlepiecek said:

And bethesda has had problems with RAM for generations now. On PC, on both 360 and PS3, they have always had problems with the RAM.


could it be due to them pushing the limits of what hardware can handle at that point in time? graphics are not the only way to push hardware, AI can be very ram consuming. objects location tracking cn be as well. id say active quests would be the major issue for skyrim if they capped it on the ps3 they may be able to improve performance, or shurnk the active area and allowed for vast load screens and hidden walls, the active area is vastly cut down on the 360 version vs pc 

and yes on both consoles the game is ram limited, and gpu limited vs the full version but as console players we have known, or should know this when buying.  



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deskpro2k3 said:
lilbroex said:
sergiodaly said:
walsufnir said:
sergiodaly said:
many people are forgetting that PS3 can use the HDD to cache data the RAM claims are not possible to prove right unless bethesda "himself" say so... also, if the devs didn't think the PS3 was able to manage the game, or if they think they aren't talent enough to master the platform, they should not release it. the PS3 is the way it is long before the start of this game development, so is their fault to launch a broken piece of SW.


caching to hdd? swapping is magnitudes slower than ram... so where is the benefit? especially with slow 2.5"-hdds attached to a sata 1.5g-interface.

 

and why shouldn't they release it? it sold very well and shoveled a lot of money, even on ps3. games with issues have always been released.

you can try to make it as insignificant as you want... the fact is that the feat. is there and some developers use it, so some kind of benefit must come from it.

 

if you buy broken stuff, the seller will obviously make money from you... that does not make it right. i will not support any dev team or publisher that make this kind of business cause my money is not to waste.


The fact is that its a useless feat. Trying to play a game while using the HDD as RAM would slow the game to a crawl if you were lucky.


i'm not gadget savvy, but what if sony make an external ram upgrade?


closest you could get is using an SSD but on a sata1 interface you will have limited the gain a bit. most ssd are designed for sata3... ssd loads better than hdd in terms of speed, but massivly out classes by ram...



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pokoko said:
BenVTrigger said:
I'm gonna post this again because many in here don't seem to understand what the actual problem is.

It ISN'T that the RAM is too limited to render the gigantic open environment. It actually has to do with item movement and placement. Every item you ever pick up and drop in Skyrim will permenantly be rendered in the last location you dropped it. Over the course of dozens of hours of play and HUNDREDS of item movements it starts taking a serious toll on the RAM.

The reason they can't currently put Dawnguard or ANY expansion onto the PS3 version is due to the number of items in the base game alone being moved fry out the game not to mention all the EXTRA items that would be added in the DLC would just break the game even faster.

This is why most people don't encounter game breaking bugs early in the game on the PS3 but rather later and the longer they play. Its because as you play the game it starts requiring more and more RAM to render and load all the item movements away from their former locations and into their new ones.

Thats why Bethesda have said they don't believe its a fixable problem. Because it litteraly has to do with the hardware of the PS3. That doesn't mean that the PS3 sucks by any means its just that Skyrim requires more RAM than the PS3 has open at any given time.

You can say it until the end of time and it still won't matter.  It excuses absolutely nothing.  You cannot release a product, say it's going to perform exactly the same on every platform, then say, oh, you know, it's going to suck on one of the platforms because of limitations.  That kind of thing needs to be addressed in development.  It's not like the PS3 suddenly changed specifications.

If you buy brakes for your car, brakes which are listed as working on your car by the manufacturer of those brakes, would you be OK with them failing if the reasoning was, "well, they only kind of work, but that's the fault of your car--we designed these brakes to work on something else."  Who would you blame?  Who would you hold responsible?

I don't care if the PS3 had 2.56MB of RAM, if someone sells a game for it then it should work.  If it doesn't, then don't sell it.

The fault rests with the developers for not understanding the limitations they were working with, or if they did recognize those limitations and communicated them to management, then the fault rests with the leadership at Bethesda for publishing a version that they knew would have serious problems.

i think to be more accurate it would be like if you were looking into breaks to use on your care and you bought a pair that was is rated for X use  and X across all other cars, where it gets x on your car but exceeds X on other cars  due to the other cars having needed subsystems to make X perform better 

 

it still works, just not like you imagined, but only to the minimum level required



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Oh guys... this thread is full of misunderstandings.

Let's talk about technical aspects with memory:

Point of view from a processor:
 A modern processor is extremely powerful and fast in calculations but obviously it needs *data* to calculate. The first location to get data from is (cpu!-)cache. This is extremely fast memory but sadly very small in size. When the cpu does not get data from the local cache there is a cache-miss and the data has to be fetched from bigger, but slower memory. Few years ago this was ram, nowadays there is l2-cache (or sometimes even l3-cache) to close the gap between l1-cache and ram. While data is gathered from "external" memory the cpu is in a "stall"-state. This is called "io-wait". It should be obvious that fetching data from an hdd (this is, when data is not even present in ram (so we had several misses by then) takes almost forever if you imagine the processor. swapping is an absolute unwanted case in *every* computer-related case. what makes an hdd extremely slow is especially the access-time - a ps3 has a 2.5"-hdd which usually has an access-time of ~12ms. This is the time some packages need in the internet to reach other servers, in comparison. And this is where the hdd just begins to transmit data!

so, using the hdd in ps3 to circumvent the small size of ram is... well, let's say, not a good idea.



PS3 just required a different technical solution, which is to only render items in the immediate environment of the player. That way there's a lot less demand on the RAM, despite there being hundreds or even thousands of item movements and placements across the entire game world. The only thing is that would require Bethesda to make major changes to the game engine, which would increase the cost of making the PS3 version immensely, and thereby make the game much less profitable.

Of course they could have started out by looking at the architecture of all the machines they'd be putting the game onto and design the software accordingly, rather than design the software to work well on 2 out of 3 of rhe machines and be sub-standard on the 3rd.



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