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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Marvelous execs take pay cuts instead of layoffs of the lower orders

Kenryoku_Maxis on 28 January 2010
Demotruk said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

People need to stop blaming the sales of games based on excuses such as a game being 'niche' or 'bungled Cover Art'.  Muramasa falls under the same genre as Metroid and Castlevania, its not niche.  And the concept art for Little Kings Story is no different or obscure than something such as Katamari Damacy or Disgaea.  The simple reason these games didn't sell is because they didn't have good marketing (IE: any aside from limited online advertising) and were poorly distributed (were only available in limited venues such as Game Stop and certain department stores, but not found in most Best Buys, Wal Marts, Toys r Us, etc).

The simple fact is, hardly anyone is buying Marvelous games because hardly anyone knows about them.  Not because of things like 'niche genre' or 'bad cover art'.

I agree that 'good cover art' is a lame excuse, I'd say LKS didn't sell because it's not as good as people on this site say it is. I bought it and didn't enjoy it, but more importantly it has some pretty big flaws that kept it from being both accessible, and from being what a mainstream audience would want from the game.

 

However it's not innacurate to call some games niche. Well loved by a small group, but with some big barrier to enjoyment for the rest. Being of the same genre as Metroid or Castlevania doesn't mean the game isn't niche (both of those series are somewhat niche themselves though, they're certainly not 'mainstream'). The content and appeal of the games are dramatically different, and 'appeal' is what decides if a game is niche or not. Both Halo and XIII are the same genre, but one is clearly more niche and limited in appeal than the other.

9 times out of 10, the only difference of why a game gets labeled 'niche' or 'mainstream' is based on how well it sells.  FOr instance, Castlevania is not a 'niche' series.  Many of its games have sold over 500,000 copies and its been determined ot be popular with both fans and critics.  But that was only after years of marketing and hype.  Muramasa is being called 'niche' because it didn't recieve that marketing and sold in limited numbers.  I can guarantee you if it had a large marketing push and came out selling 500,000 or more, no one would have been calling it a niche title today.  They would have been comparing it directly with titles such as Metroid and Castlevania and calling it a hit.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

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Demotruk on 28 January 2010

Over 500,000, that's really mainstream...

It's niche, but a bigger niche ('niche' being a relative term). I don't think a game like Muramasa would ever get sales like that, even if it were marketed very heavily, unless perhaps it was the first of it's kind. That's why they don't give it mainstream marketing in the first place. It happens all the time, Madworld was heavily marketed, and what happened with that? There is such a thing as being limited in appeal, and quirky games like Muramasa are exactly that.



A game I'm developing with some friends:

www.xnagg.com/zombieasteroids/publish.htm

It is largely a technical exercise but feedback is appreciated.

Kenryoku_Maxis on 28 January 2010
Demotruk said:
Over 500,000, that's really mainstream...

It's niche, but a bigger niche ('niche' being a relative term). I don't think a game like Muramasa would ever get sales like that, even if it were marketed very heavily, unless perhaps it was the first of it's kind. That's why they don't give it mainstream marketing in the first place. It happens all the time, Madworld was heavily marketed, and what happened with that? There is such a thing as being limited in appeal, and quirky games like Muramasa are exactly that.

Yeah, okay buddy.  On one hand you're saying a games 'niche' status is about its sales.  Then on the other, you're saying its because its about its appeal, IE it just being a 'quirky game' only limited people can get into.  Guess what, that's why I specifically brought up examples like Katamari Damacy and Digaea before, which still got popular besides their 'quirkyness', and Symphony of the Night, which this game is like in gameplay.

The simple fact is, this game didn't sell well because it had 1) Hardly any marketing and 2) was hardly stocked in stores.  Even with these shortcomings, the game is still managing to sell pretty well.  By the end of the Wiis lifetime, if Marvelous actually restocks the game enough, it may even reach the sales of its predecessor (320,000).



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Demotruk on 28 January 2010

Being niche is linked to sales, it's not defined by it. It's almost a tautology that if something is limited in it's appeal, it will be limited in sales. The degree to which that happens is obviously different, but honestly I think your own examples actually prove my point. Yeah, Disgaea, Katamari Damacy and Castlevania, they're really mainstream...



A game I'm developing with some friends:

www.xnagg.com/zombieasteroids/publish.htm

It is largely a technical exercise but feedback is appreciated.

jarrod on 28 January 2010

Castlevania, Disgaea and Katamari aren't exactly huge sellers themselves. None of those games have passed 500k this gen actually, and Muramasa's outselling some of them even.



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Kenryoku_Maxis on 28 January 2010
jarrod said:
Castlevania, Disgaea and Katamari aren't exactly huge sellers themselves. None of those games have passed 500k this gen actually, and Muramasa's outselling some of them even.

Yet they still get major attention from sites like IGN/GameSpot/GameTrailers for being popular, even 'core' games and their sequels are hyped.  This would only further prove my point that Muramasa is being labeled as 'miche' only because it didn't have a marketing push when it was released.  In other words, since people didn't hear about it on TV or from an article on IGN hyping it, they automatically default to thinking its a 'niche' title.  Although in the case of Muramasa, there were multiple articles/videos on sites like IGN/GameSpot/GameTrailers previewing the game.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Demotruk on 28 January 2010

Since when does attention from IGN, Gamespot or Gametrailers determine whether a game is mainstream or not? Those are sites that cater mostly to gaming enthusiasts.

It's not about a lack of TV ads (Madworld got plenty), it's about appeal. We know enough about people and their tastes to say that something like Muramasa, and those other games, are not widely appealing. They're niche.



A game I'm developing with some friends:

www.xnagg.com/zombieasteroids/publish.htm

It is largely a technical exercise but feedback is appreciated.

jarrod on 28 January 2010
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
jarrod said:
Castlevania, Disgaea and Katamari aren't exactly huge sellers themselves. None of those games have passed 500k this gen actually, and Muramasa's outselling some of them even.

Yet they still get major attention from sites like IGN/GameSpot/GameTrailers for being popular, even 'core' games and their sequels are hyped.  This would only further prove my point that Muramasa is being labeled as 'miche' only because it didn't have a marketing push when it was released.  In other words, since people didn't hear about it on TV or from an article on IGN hyping it, they automatically default to thinking its a 'niche' title.  Although in the case of Muramasa, there were multiple articles/videos on sites like IGN/GameSpot/GameTrailers previewing the game.

I'd call it "niche" but that's mainly due to the merits of the game itself.  I mean it a Japanese made side scrolling 2D action RPG.  Those might've been big in the 16bit days, but they're practically an endangered species now and usually reserved for nostalgic enthusiasts like me.  In fact, I can count all the likeminded games we've gotten this gen on two hands and the only one that sold really well had Mario in it. :/

These days, I'd also call Castlevania "niche" to be honest, though it definitely still has some brand cache.



Kenryoku_Maxis on 28 January 2010
jarrod said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
jarrod said:
Castlevania, Disgaea and Katamari aren't exactly huge sellers themselves. None of those games have passed 500k this gen actually, and Muramasa's outselling some of them even.

Yet they still get major attention from sites like IGN/GameSpot/GameTrailers for being popular, even 'core' games and their sequels are hyped.  This would only further prove my point that Muramasa is being labeled as 'miche' only because it didn't have a marketing push when it was released.  In other words, since people didn't hear about it on TV or from an article on IGN hyping it, they automatically default to thinking its a 'niche' title.  Although in the case of Muramasa, there were multiple articles/videos on sites like IGN/GameSpot/GameTrailers previewing the game.

I'd call it "niche" but that's mainly due to the merits of the game itself.  I mean it a Japanese made side scrolling 2D action RPG.  Those might've been big in the 16bit days, but they're practically an endangered species now and usually reserved for nostalgic enthusiasts like me.  In fact, I can count all the likeminded games we've gotten this gen on two hands and the only one that sold really well had Mario in it. :/

These days, I'd also call Castlevania "niche" to be honest, though it definitely still has some brand cache.

On consoles, I would definitely agree there's a limited amount of 2D side scrollers being made.  However, on handhelds, we're being flooded with them still.  So I guess I have a different view of the situation.  I mean, while some people will call a game like Muramasa niche, I'm also seeing many people starting to call the entire JRPG genre 'niche'.  Yet we have games from both genres selling in the multi-millions. 

What I was trying to get accross was that terms such as 'niche' are being used to describe games people precieve to be unpopular or they personally don't think are as good as another type of game, not based on sales or actual popularity.  And for the most part, I feel that comes from their lack of being hyped for the game personally (due to a lack of marketing for the game compared to highly advertised western games like Mass Effect, Halo or GTA).



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

jarrod on 28 January 2010
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
jarrod said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
jarrod said:
Castlevania, Disgaea and Katamari aren't exactly huge sellers themselves. None of those games have passed 500k this gen actually, and Muramasa's outselling some of them even.

Yet they still get major attention from sites like IGN/GameSpot/GameTrailers for being popular, even 'core' games and their sequels are hyped.  This would only further prove my point that Muramasa is being labeled as 'miche' only because it didn't have a marketing push when it was released.  In other words, since people didn't hear about it on TV or from an article on IGN hyping it, they automatically default to thinking its a 'niche' title.  Although in the case of Muramasa, there were multiple articles/videos on sites like IGN/GameSpot/GameTrailers previewing the game.

I'd call it "niche" but that's mainly due to the merits of the game itself.  I mean it a Japanese made side scrolling 2D action RPG.  Those might've been big in the 16bit days, but they're practically an endangered species now and usually reserved for nostalgic enthusiasts like me.  In fact, I can count all the likeminded games we've gotten this gen on two hands and the only one that sold really well had Mario in it. :/

These days, I'd also call Castlevania "niche" to be honest, though it definitely still has some brand cache.

On consoles, I would definitely agree there's a limited amount of 2D side scrollers being made.  However, on handhelds, we're being flooded with them still.  So I guess I have a different view of the situation.  I mean, while some people will call a game like Muramasa niche, I'm also seeing many people starting to call the entire JRPG genre 'niche'.  Yet we have games from both genres selling in the multi-millions. 

What I was trying to get accross was that terms such as 'niche' are being used to describe games people precieve to be unpopular or they personally don't think are as good as another type of game, not based on sales or actual popularity.  And for the most part, I feel that comes from their lack of being hyped for the game personally (due to a lack of marketing for the game compared to highly advertised western games like Mass Effect, Halo or GTA).

I dunno, the only similar games (JP made sidescrolling ARPGs) I can think of this gen are...

  • Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow (DS) 2005
  • Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin (DS) 2006
  • MegaMan ZX (DS) 2006
  • Super Paper Mario (Wii) 2007
  • MegaMan ZX Advent (DS) 2007
  • Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (DS) 2008
  • Muramasa: The Demon Blade (Wii) 2009
  • La-Mulana (WW) 2010
  • Cave Story (WW) 2010

...that's not much.  If we extended out to similar western games, then there's Shantae 2 and (sort of) Shadow Complex?  :/