JRPGs are a genre like romantic comedies.  You know what you're getting when you walk into one.  People who like JRPGs aren't looking for something to re-invent the wheel, they want the familiar thing that they like with some slight tweaks.

If you don't like that, it's understandable.  You have Demon Soul and tons of WRPGs to play.  JRPGs aren't called WRPGs for a reason.  It's cool if the two aren't the same.

Or maybe you just need to accept the fact that opinions are like assholes.

I've read plenty of good books. Unfortunately you're unlikely to have heard of them, as they are mostly from Portuguese speaking countries. Ever heard of "O Cortiço" or "Primo Basilio"? They're both great.

I do enjoy Dostoyevsky occasionally but I find his narrative a little too unfocused. But that's just me.

I still find the story of CT to be more moving than "The Idiot". Not as polished, sure. Filled with cliche and a couple plotholes here and there, no argument. Still moved me more. Call me a peasant.

Storylines in games don't compare to books if you measure them by literature standards. However, a game doesn't neccessarily need an amazingly deep story as it's a completely different medium to books. It's more to do with the interactivity, the mood and atmosphere. I read a lot but a game such as SoTC with its simple narrative but unique interactive style can have a far more emotional impact than a large number of books I've read.

The other examples I can give are Deus Ex, which, with it's highly free and interactive nature, strange cyber-punk furture world and conspiracy theories, is more thought provoking than a lot of sci-fi novels. And of course, Planescape Torment. The game script managed to make it into The New York Times top 100 literature works of the last century (I believe it was the New York Times).

I'm inclined to agree with Bioware here. WRPGs have shown more evolution and innovation over the last few years than JRPGs which tend to stick to the same script with subtle differences, similar characters and similar systems. Only a few try to evolve the genre further. Then if you look at the diversity wRPGs have given us recently:

Elder Scrolls series (+ Fallout 3 :P) (1st person open-world)
Diablo (hack & Slash)
Fallout 1 & 2 (Post-apocalypse top-down RPG)
Baldurs Gate, NWN, Dragon Age, KoToR (Party based, story driven)
Mass Effect (Story driven shooter/RPG mix)
The Witcher (Fantasy RPG where moral choices are just diferent shades of gray)
Deus Ex (FPS mixing, choice driven, conspiracy theory, futuristic RPG genius!)
Fable 1 & 2 (Open world life RPG? lol)
Planescape Torment (Has what is considered to be the best story in gaming- see my previous post)

When you look at the sheer diversity and variety of game styles and genre/sub-genre mixes, most people will find something in that list that they'll enjoy. When you look at JRPGs, whilst they've evolved, the titles that differentiate themselves from the pack are few and far between, so people are more likely to tire of the titles.

I played the Might and Magic games from VI to IX and even then it doesn't feel like they've moved on a great deal, just become bigger, while doing the exact same thing. I played a few other, what I would call, WRPG's along the way too, albeit obviously my main experience has been Bioware and Bethesda.

 I'm pretty sure it's a genre wide thing, it happen with any genre though. Once it becomes popular and starts selling the imitators come along in their droves, and sooner or later repetition occurs. It's take 2 years for every WW2 shooter to become a modern warfare shooter, off the success of one game.

Nastalgia warps your sense of judgment... I love the BG series that Bioware did, but in now way are they complex... their story was based in a massively rich world that had almost two decades of lore to build on... so in that sense they "went backwards", but KotOR and Mass Effect are massive improvements in story telling and Dragon Age was clearly BG's spiritual successor.  Sure it has it's problems, but if you play the PC version you'll find that you will have more than a little bit of nastalgia.   And if you really want to talk about dumbing down everything is trash compared to Wizardry and Might and Magic back in the day... games that required you(at the time no intertron really) to goto the library to figure some of the shit out

You are kidding right? You actually believe that the 4th grade math employed by RPG's is their attraction? You are wrong. Anyway, what you call math is refered to by many as min/maxing. Although fun when you have a thousands of variables like in NWN and Diablo, JRPG's absolutely fail to provide a mathematical challence of any kind... unless youre in 4th grade mainly because you are given no options. All you do is kill another enemy and everything is automatic. In a WRPG you have to make choices. Should I wear this heavy armor that will slow me down and ruin my spellcasting ability, or should I wear this robe that offers more freedom but no real protection? Should I dual wield or should I use this shield? Should I cast spells or should I sneak? What was the last JRPG that offered any sort of choice aside from simply wearing the most expensive item you can find? As a matter of fact, if you like to min/max the best games to play are WRPG's like NWN2 or Diablo, or any MMO. JRPG's require the least amount of strategy or brain power to "win."

Not really nostalgia. You can measure how they are dumbed down. NWN  had hundered of feats, aout 200 spells, and more skill sthan KOTOR. Also 9 completely different classes. What did KOTOR have? 3 root classes, about 30 feats, a dozen skills, and a some force powers (spells). That is what I call dumbed down for the general audience of consoles, the people who wouldn't be able to even begin to understand how NWN worked. BioWare's last deep RPG was Neverwinter Nights, afte that they have ust dumbed down everything more and more. Thnk god DA brought it back some, but still a little too simple.

You have to go back and look at the context of my whole paragraph.  Not just the initial part.  I was leading to a point.  That since Consoles overtook RPGs in the late 90s, it was only recently that better, more high quality WRPGs have come along to challenge the console RPGs (mostly from Japan).  But they also had to put their games on consoles to complete with the sales of console RPGs.

Your views of PC vs Console games quality is pretty much subjective however.  I'm talking purely of general opinion and sales of gamers.  In the NES and SNES eras, PC was still a dominant force and PC RPGs were still around.  But in the mid 1990s, they all but vanished and were overtaken by PSX, Saturn, Dreamcast and PS2 RPGs (along with limited offerings on N64 and GC).  In short, the mid 90s heralded the influx of imported RPGs from Japan with a loss of both quality and quantity of RPGs from the 'west'.  And its only been post 2000 that their reputation has come back...and mostly based on a handful of companies making a handful of games such as Blizzard, Bioware and Bethesta. 

Seriously, while there are great WRPGs out there, the subgenre itself has probably made as many games in ten years as Japan does in ONE.  Peoples view of its quality or not, this notion that WRPGs are ultimately superior and Japanese RPGs are instantly inferior is just getting old.  At best, its just a desperate ploy to get people to play more WRPGs and at worst, its an ignorant rant against a genre you don't know anything about because you refuse to play them claiming 'WRPGs are superior and all JRPGs are the same'.  All this view breeds is someone who likes JRPGs claiming 'well all WRPGs are the same so I'm never going to play one' and now you've acomplished nothing but creating an argument.

So in closing, I end my rant and say good job with another 'WRPG vs JRPG' thread.  It won't go anywhere.  And this comes from someone who likes both.

Very good points As much as I loved the polished quality of DAO, it was without a doubt dumbed down for the consoles. So was KOTOR I & II. Thats not to say that I didnt like them, actually I thought they were great because of their production quality (kotor II excluded it was horrid save for the story), but the fact is they do not a hold a candle to NWN, BG, IWD customization wise. It is truley sad but we all know why it happened and  it does open the door for another company to bring back those types of games while Bioware goes on to mainstream development.

Bethesda is also going down the same route. Every iteration of EScrolls is dumber than the previous although I thought that Morrowind was the best game ever produced. I really hate to see all the dumbing down for $$. Sometimes is better to be happy with making a modest living but leaving behind a greater legacy than making tons of cash and being forgotten... but this will not happen with publically owned companies that are owned by people who dont play games at all.