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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Miyamoto: Not EVERYTHING needs to be 3D! (Do you AGREE?!)

Kantor on 20 November 2009

Tsk. "You" should have been capitalised, rather than "Agree". It's not "Do you AGREE", it's "Do YOU agree?"

Anyway, he's right. Going back to the 4th gen, of course, all games were in 2D. Quite a few PS1 games, too. Nowadays, it's less common, and mostly reserved for downloadable games: BC Rearmed, Trine, Mega Man 9, etc.

There have been a few on disc, like NSMBWii and LBP, and they're both great, so I suppose it can still work, if it's made well. They are both 3D sprites on 2D planes, though.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

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Vetteman94 on 20 November 2009
Farmageddon said:
Vetteman94 said:
Khuutra said:
Vetteman94 said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
vetteman, you're confusing polygonal graphics with 3D. Little Big Planet is what's known as 2.5D, same as Super Mario Bros Wii.

As for improving, not always. Sprites use less resources, for one thing, so they improve performance (unless the game has loads of complex sprites).

No I believe you are the one who is confused.  Every model in LBP is rendered in full 3D, the perspective is what gives it the 2D feel, and the limitation of movement to only side to side and up and down. 

Allow me to speak for him (I hope you don't mind, Lord).

Vetteman, what he means is that you're confusing "has 3-D graphics" with "being a 3-D game". New Super Mario Bros Wii already has 3-D graphics, it's just played in 2-D. Like decent Sonic games.

And you didn't really answer any of my questions.

Your perspective on this question is kind of bizarre. When did you start console gaming?

I started gaming on an Atari 2600.   So what does that have to do with anything?

He was saying that NSMB Wii was like LBP in being 2.5D which was only given to LBP because of its limited movement in the 3rd dimension.  But everything else is in 3D,  which is what I would classify as a 3D game.  So While the movement is limited to only 2 directions I still believe LBP is a 3D game.   And if that is the same way that NSMB Wii is then fantastic.

Look, 2.5D is a term created to define games that have 3D graphics but 2D gameplay. So LBP is 2.5D by definition, it doesn't matter if you'd classify it as 3D or whatever.

And since Miyamoto used NSMB Wii, a 2.5D game like LBP, as an exemple of 2D game, it's clear he was talking about the gameplay, not the graphics. So, in the context of this trhead and his quotes, LBP is, in fact, a 2D game.

Also, on another reply, you said you couldn't see NSMB Wii as being more fun than Galaxy, even though you just said earlier you had no knowlodge of the game. It seems like you're just being stubborn and supposing you're right even if you have no clear reason to believe so.

LBP only got the 2.5D designation is because of its limited movement in the 3rd dimension.  Does NSMB Wii have any movement in the third dimension? 



Smidlee on 20 November 2009
LordTheNightKnight said:
vetteman, you're confusing polygonal graphics with 3D. Little Big Planet is what's known as 2.5D, same as Super Mario Bros Wii.

As for improving, not always. Sprites use less resources, for one thing, so they improve performance (unless the game has loads of complex sprites).

Yet from what I've read sprite require more time to do them well which is one reason why even TBS on the PC went 3D.



LordTheNightKnight on 20 November 2009
Vetteman94 said:
Farmageddon said:
Vetteman94 said:
Khuutra said:
Vetteman94 said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
vetteman, you're confusing polygonal graphics with 3D. Little Big Planet is what's known as 2.5D, same as Super Mario Bros Wii.

As for improving, not always. Sprites use less resources, for one thing, so they improve performance (unless the game has loads of complex sprites).

No I believe you are the one who is confused.  Every model in LBP is rendered in full 3D, the perspective is what gives it the 2D feel, and the limitation of movement to only side to side and up and down. 

Allow me to speak for him (I hope you don't mind, Lord).

Vetteman, what he means is that you're confusing "has 3-D graphics" with "being a 3-D game". New Super Mario Bros Wii already has 3-D graphics, it's just played in 2-D. Like decent Sonic games.

And you didn't really answer any of my questions.

Your perspective on this question is kind of bizarre. When did you start console gaming?

I started gaming on an Atari 2600.   So what does that have to do with anything?

He was saying that NSMB Wii was like LBP in being 2.5D which was only given to LBP because of its limited movement in the 3rd dimension.  But everything else is in 3D,  which is what I would classify as a 3D game.  So While the movement is limited to only 2 directions I still believe LBP is a 3D game.   And if that is the same way that NSMB Wii is then fantastic.

Look, 2.5D is a term created to define games that have 3D graphics but 2D gameplay. So LBP is 2.5D by definition, it doesn't matter if you'd classify it as 3D or whatever.

And since Miyamoto used NSMB Wii, a 2.5D game like LBP, as an exemple of 2D game, it's clear he was talking about the gameplay, not the graphics. So, in the context of this trhead and his quotes, LBP is, in fact, a 2D game.

Also, on another reply, you said you couldn't see NSMB Wii as being more fun than Galaxy, even though you just said earlier you had no knowlodge of the game. It seems like you're just being stubborn and supposing you're right even if you have no clear reason to believe so.

LBP only got the 2.5D designation is because of its limited movement in the 3rd dimension.  Does NSMB Wii have any movement in the third dimension? 

There isn't any movment. The most it gets is layers, but sprits games do that as well. It's still a 2D mechanic in a polygon game. Hence 2.5D. I really suggest you look that up before you try to discuss this further. You don't seem to know what it means.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

SuperAdrianK on 20 November 2009

when you said 2d games going to 3d the right way the game drastically improves...
but that can be said the same if all 3-d games go to 2-d games drastically improves....

though i know this all in a opinion... there are flaws how you said it...




              

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Smidlee on 20 November 2009

Probably the reason why LBP uses polygons with 2D mechanics thus 2.5 is often sprite are done by the CPU while a GPU are designed more tio handle 3D polygons. So using polygons instead of sprites can free up the CPU and allows the GPU to do more  work.



Baddman on 20 November 2009

i agree after playing recent games like splosion man and shadow complex i forgot just how much i enjoyed 2d game experiences



hsrob on 20 November 2009
Vetteman94 said:
Farmageddon said:
Vetteman94 said:
Khuutra said:
Vetteman94 said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
vetteman, you're confusing polygonal graphics with 3D. Little Big Planet is what's known as 2.5D, same as Super Mario Bros Wii.

As for improving, not always. Sprites use less resources, for one thing, so they improve performance (unless the game has loads of complex sprites).

No I believe you are the one who is confused.  Every model in LBP is rendered in full 3D, the perspective is what gives it the 2D feel, and the limitation of movement to only side to side and up and down. 

Allow me to speak for him (I hope you don't mind, Lord).

Vetteman, what he means is that you're confusing "has 3-D graphics" with "being a 3-D game". New Super Mario Bros Wii already has 3-D graphics, it's just played in 2-D. Like decent Sonic games.

And you didn't really answer any of my questions.

Your perspective on this question is kind of bizarre. When did you start console gaming?

I started gaming on an Atari 2600.   So what does that have to do with anything?

He was saying that NSMB Wii was like LBP in being 2.5D which was only given to LBP because of its limited movement in the 3rd dimension.  But everything else is in 3D,  which is what I would classify as a 3D game.  So While the movement is limited to only 2 directions I still believe LBP is a 3D game.   And if that is the same way that NSMB Wii is then fantastic.

Look, 2.5D is a term created to define games that have 3D graphics but 2D gameplay. So LBP is 2.5D by definition, it doesn't matter if you'd classify it as 3D or whatever.

And since Miyamoto used NSMB Wii, a 2.5D game like LBP, as an exemple of 2D game, it's clear he was talking about the gameplay, not the graphics. So, in the context of this trhead and his quotes, LBP is, in fact, a 2D game.

Also, on another reply, you said you couldn't see NSMB Wii as being more fun than Galaxy, even though you just said earlier you had no knowlodge of the game. It seems like you're just being stubborn and supposing you're right even if you have no clear reason to believe so.

LBP only got the 2.5D designation is because of its limited movement in the 3rd dimension.  Does NSMB Wii have any movement in the third dimension? 

The 2.5D designation existed before LBP so it's not defined by the characteristics of that game.

An excerpt from Wiki:

"Examples include Pandemonium, Klonoa: Door to Phantomile, Nights into Dreams..., Viewtiful Joe, Strider 2, Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards, New Super Mario Bros, Wario World, Yoshi's Story, Tomba!, The Simpsons Game (DS) and Sonic Rivals. The Crash Bandicoot series is sometimes referred to as 2.5D because although the characters and scenery are rendered in 3D, it is not as free-roaming like 'true' 3D platformers."

 



The Anarchyz on 20 November 2009

Miyamoto is right, some games just don't work on 3D, and some don't work on 2D... Mario is one that works both ways (but is more popular in 2D)...

I was thinking about what someone posted about Pokemon in 3D, and the game can work with some good cel-shading, full 360 view for exploration, and when a Wild Pokemon is found, switch to a battle screen with the old system and anime-esque scenes...



Pretendo on 20 November 2009

Completely agree. We need more 2D games on home consoles.