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Forums - Gaming - FIRST Dragon Age Origins REVIEW -- 9/10 (BIOWARE delivers)! -- Gameinformer

darthdevidem01 said:
RageBot said:
darthdevidem01 said:
shio said:
themanwithnoname said:
RageBot said:
huaxiong90 said:
reaver_x said:
is this game story driven??? b/c thats the deciding factor for me.

One thing BioWare are known for is the deep stories in their games. So yes.

Nope, they were known for it during the BG2 days, and it's almost a decade since than.

If you don't think KOTOR and Mass Effect have deep stories, I'd like to know what you've been smoking.

Kotor and Mass Effect have shallow stories, and extremely linear. Planescape: Torment is a game with a deeps story, not the shallow crap that Kotor and ME have as stories.

If you actually played great WRPGs, you would agree with me.

I disagree, KOTOR is the pinnacle of WRPG's in every way just like Final Fantasy 6 is the pinnacle of JRPG's in every way.....ofcourse FF13 will be that pinnacle soon, but anyway.

Are you serious?

Man, you really lack experience in both of these genres.

Xenogears' story is, in mine and a lot of other people opinion the best story in a JRPG, and the same with PS:T and WRPG, it's a shame you miss such great games, who's story just blows KotOR and FF6's stories out of the water.

 

I havn't played them so I can't say

its too late to play them now anyway

from the WRPG's & JRPG's I have played, they were the pinnacles

It's never to late to play games that are remembered by the story, IMO.  I missed several great games between 1999 and 2006, but going back through these old gems doesn't overshadow the greatness that these games portrayed.



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Are we back to hailing KotOR as the greatest WRPG ever again? *sigh*

Listen, BioWare has never - never - made a truly potent story. Look at KotOR. That game had so much potential. It could have examined the nature of identity (are you the 'real' you?), memory (how do you know anything you have experienced was real?) free will (were your actions effectively orchestrated by someone else?), the good/evil dichotomy (what makes an action 'good'? what does 'good' even mean?), as well as a slew of other psychological themes. Instead the game resorts to simple black and white morality, with the main cast suffering from laughable stock "I'm evil cuz I'm evil" motives. No, it was the sequel, made by Obsidian, that brought these themes up (and more).

What BioWare does, and does well, is to craft epic, well told stories. It's the basic Hero's Quest - exactly what you would expect, no more and no less. It can still be an enjoyable ride, to be sure, just don't expect anything too profound or original from that kind of story.



Classic fantasy FTW!



I LOVE ICELAND!

largedarryl said:
Slimebeast said:

It bothers me that there's so many members discussing Bioware games, and there's obviously ppl who are knowledgeable in WRPGs on this site after all, but in all these years there's been not much discussion about Bethesda, Morrowind and Oblivion - the greatest of them all.

It's mainly because Bethesda has been on a decline in games since Daggerfall.  It's a shame that Morrowind was a fantastic game, hidden in the shadow of a better Elder Scroll's game, only to have the basterdized version of Morrowind to be released in 2006 (and no, Patrick Stewart couldn't even save it).

EDIT: Although I will admit Fallout 3 is a slight recovery from Oblivion, but I was extremely annoyed with the destruction of Black-isle gem.

 

Bethesda is not on a decline, they've been consistent and kept the idea since Daggerfall - to put the player into a huge world letting him be free to do what he wants.

What's wrong with Oblivion? It's fundamentally the same as Morrowind xcept for the level system of enemies.



Slimebeast said:
largedarryl said:
Slimebeast said:

It bothers me that there's so many members discussing Bioware games, and there's obviously ppl who are knowledgeable in WRPGs on this site after all, but in all these years there's been not much discussion about Bethesda, Morrowind and Oblivion - the greatest of them all.

It's mainly because Bethesda has been on a decline in games since Daggerfall.  It's a shame that Morrowind was a fantastic game, hidden in the shadow of a better Elder Scroll's game, only to have the basterdized version of Morrowind to be released in 2006 (and no, Patrick Stewart couldn't even save it).

EDIT: Although I will admit Fallout 3 is a slight recovery from Oblivion, but I was extremely annoyed with the destruction of Black-isle gem.

 

Bethesda is not on a decline, they've been consistent and kept the idea since Daggerfall - to put the player into a huge world letting him be free to do what he wants.

What's wrong with Oblivion? It's fundamentally the same as Morrowind xcept for the level system of enemies.

Oblivion took away many character attributes/skills.  This really simplified the character development, allowed them to scrap tons of armours.  The consolidation of weapon skills made weapon selections kind of useless.  The horrible implimentation of leveled enemies (there is nothing wrong with leveled enemies, but Oblivion did it wrong).  The actual shrinking of the world has occured slowly, reducing the amount of area and NPC's from Daggerfall-Morrowind-Oblivion.  Oblivion only seems to have 3 different missions, which obviously get incredibly annoying after the 3rd one.  And the strange idea that you could become the master of every guild, something that seems a little strange for an open world game because this doesn't give the player the feeling that they actually influence the world.  I could continue to go on with more faults, but my initial hate for the game has faded over time and I have attempted to forget all the problems with this game.

EDIT:  I know lots of people loved Oblivion, but I have failed to the get the same immersion that Morrowind gave.  This really ruined the game for me and possibly why the flaws in the game really rubbed me the wrong way.



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largedarryl said:
Slimebeast said:
largedarryl said:
Slimebeast said:

It bothers me that there's so many members discussing Bioware games, and there's obviously ppl who are knowledgeable in WRPGs on this site after all, but in all these years there's been not much discussion about Bethesda, Morrowind and Oblivion - the greatest of them all.

It's mainly because Bethesda has been on a decline in games since Daggerfall.  It's a shame that Morrowind was a fantastic game, hidden in the shadow of a better Elder Scroll's game, only to have the basterdized version of Morrowind to be released in 2006 (and no, Patrick Stewart couldn't even save it).

EDIT: Although I will admit Fallout 3 is a slight recovery from Oblivion, but I was extremely annoyed with the destruction of Black-isle gem.

 

Bethesda is not on a decline, they've been consistent and kept the idea since Daggerfall - to put the player into a huge world letting him be free to do what he wants.

What's wrong with Oblivion? It's fundamentally the same as Morrowind xcept for the level system of enemies.

Oblivion took away many character attributes/skills.  This really simplified the character development, allowed them to scrap tons of armours.  The consolidation of weapon skills made weapon selections kind of useless.  The horrible implimentation of leveled enemies (there is nothing wrong with leveled enemies, but Oblivion did it wrong).  The actual shrinking of the world has occured slowly, reducing the amount of area and NPC's from Daggerfall-Morrowind-Oblivion.  Oblivion only seems to have 3 different missions, which obviously get incredibly annoying after the 3rd one.  And the strange idea that you could become the master of every guild, something that seems a little strange for an open world game because this doesn't give the player the feeling that they actually influence the world.  I could continue to go on with more faults, but my initial hate for the game has faded over time and I have attempted to forget all the problems with this game.

EDIT:  I know lots of people loved Oblivion, but I have failed to the get the same immersion that Morrowind gave.  This really ruined the game for me and possibly why the flaws in the game really rubbed me the wrong way.

U fail in ur bashing of Oblivion.

1. You are nitpicking. A few less skills and armor types dont affect the overall quality of a game. Well, yes as a hardcore fan obviously I would like to have as much stuff as possible too, but like Todd Howard and other devs have said, a great developer knows when to add stuff, but also when to take away stuff.

2. Leveled enemies is the only major flaw in Oblivion. Even the devs agree with this. That's why they fixed it with Fallout 3.

3. The land mass of Oblivion is bigger than Morrowind. This has been debated and decided on the official forums a long time ago. Morrowind apears to have a bigger world only because they're so many mountains you cant directly walk over, but u have to snirkly through roads around them. Oblivion is the biggest single player game ever made. And the best too.

 



Slimebeast said:
largedarryl said:
Slimebeast said:
largedarryl said:
Slimebeast said:

It bothers me that there's so many members discussing Bioware games, and there's obviously ppl who are knowledgeable in WRPGs on this site after all, but in all these years there's been not much discussion about Bethesda, Morrowind and Oblivion - the greatest of them all.

It's mainly because Bethesda has been on a decline in games since Daggerfall.  It's a shame that Morrowind was a fantastic game, hidden in the shadow of a better Elder Scroll's game, only to have the basterdized version of Morrowind to be released in 2006 (and no, Patrick Stewart couldn't even save it).

EDIT: Although I will admit Fallout 3 is a slight recovery from Oblivion, but I was extremely annoyed with the destruction of Black-isle gem.

 

Bethesda is not on a decline, they've been consistent and kept the idea since Daggerfall - to put the player into a huge world letting him be free to do what he wants.

What's wrong with Oblivion? It's fundamentally the same as Morrowind xcept for the level system of enemies.

Oblivion took away many character attributes/skills.  This really simplified the character development, allowed them to scrap tons of armours.  The consolidation of weapon skills made weapon selections kind of useless.  The horrible implimentation of leveled enemies (there is nothing wrong with leveled enemies, but Oblivion did it wrong).  The actual shrinking of the world has occured slowly, reducing the amount of area and NPC's from Daggerfall-Morrowind-Oblivion.  Oblivion only seems to have 3 different missions, which obviously get incredibly annoying after the 3rd one.  And the strange idea that you could become the master of every guild, something that seems a little strange for an open world game because this doesn't give the player the feeling that they actually influence the world.  I could continue to go on with more faults, but my initial hate for the game has faded over time and I have attempted to forget all the problems with this game.

EDIT:  I know lots of people loved Oblivion, but I have failed to the get the same immersion that Morrowind gave.  This really ruined the game for me and possibly why the flaws in the game really rubbed me the wrong way.

U fail in ur bashing of Oblivion.

1. You are nitpicking. A few less skills and armor types dont affect the overall quality of a game. Well, yes as a hardcore fan obviously I would like to have as much stuff as possible too, but like Todd Howard and other devs have said, a great developer knows when to add stuff, but also when to take away stuff.

2. Leveled enemies is the only major flaw in Oblivion. Even the devs agree with this. That's why they fixed it with Fallout 3.

3. The land mass of Oblivion is bigger than Morrowind. This has been debated and decided on the official forums a long time ago. Morrowind apears to have a bigger world only because they're so many mountains you cant directly walk over, but u have to snirkly through roads around them. Oblivion is the biggest single player game ever made. And the best too.

 

I do agree that many of my nitpicking is simply that, but in my edit I noted these faults probably stood out more to me because of lack of immersion (and this my be personal issues with the game, probably stemming from the horrible leveled enemies implimentation).

As for 3, Morrowind felt bigger because every city had a very distinct fealing.  It appeared and felt like each city belonged with the surrounding environment.  This was something Oblivion didn't accomplish, and this made the world feal smaller because most of the cities had similar surrounding environments.  This similarity in environments doesn't make you feel like you have actually accomplished any real travelling.

I do understand why many people enjoyed Oblivion, it just didn't fit into what I wanted in an Elder Scrolls game.  I'm just hoping that Dragon Age can live up to my standards I have personally expect in a WRPG.

 



Zlejedi said:
ZenfoldorVGI said:
Khuutra said:
For God's sake did you just call Obsidian Entertainment second string developers?

Technically, they were second string, since Bioware opted out of the project, and they replaced them. I didn't mean they were shitty. Second string in this instance, meant they were a replacement developer.

...but yes, they are much worse developers than Bioware, I'm afraid.

Baldur's Gate 2 and KoToR saw to that.

Obsidian is good though, but their games list is FAR from the prestige of Bioware or Bethesda.

 Sorry but did you just said that studio which has been created by people working previously as Black Isles aka the greatest RPG makers in known history of man is less prestigious than the makers of dumbed down console wrpgs from Bethsheda crapworks who haven't made good game since Morrowind times?

A few things.

It's a different company now. Things get worse. Look at Square-Enix. By your logic, Square-Enix is the best developer in the industry.

The newer games by Obsidian(last 8 years?) are fall less prestigious than Fallout 3, and I believe, have worse review scores?

Just because you are a PC fanatic, doesn't mean you have to be an elitist.

Yes, Black Isle Studios is awesome, yes KoToR II was worse than KoToR, and yes, this has been discussed earlier betwixt myself and other PC fans and we came to an agreement.

Read that for further comment.

I'm getting really sick of PC fans lately, seems I've been running into them in every other thread, being all elitist and saying that the game industry sucks, because they no longer have any exclusive games of their own.

I should make a real, fleshed out, PC is doomed, thread after a couple of weeks of investigation, just to enjoy the butthurt. The base argument very few exclusives, and less in the future due to no first party games, along with diminishing returns on graphical capabilities should be enough to dish out plenty of butthurt if presented correctly.

.....it could be....epic? Hmm.



I don't need your console war.
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor.
You're power hungry, spinnin' stories, and bein' graphics whores.
I don't need your console war.

NO NO, NO NO NO.

Kotor to Kotor II was a letdown, but that's because I thought KOTOR was so awesome!!! Not thaT kotor II was bad.



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

Helios said:

Are we back to hailing KotOR as the greatest WRPG ever again? *sigh*

Listen, BioWare has never - never - made a truly potent story. Look at KotOR. That game had so much potential. It could have examined the nature of identity (are you the 'real' you?), memory (how do you know anything you have experienced was real?) free will (were your actions effectively orchestrated by someone else?), the good/evil dichotomy (what makes an action 'good'? what does 'good' even mean?), as well as a slew of other psychological themes. Instead the game resorts to simple black and white morality, with the main cast suffering from laughable stock "I'm evil cuz I'm evil" motives. No, it was the sequel, made by Obsidian, that brought these themes up (and more).

What BioWare does, and does well, is to craft epic, well told stories. It's the basic Hero's Quest - exactly what you would expect, no more and no less. It can still be an enjoyable ride, to be sure, just don't expect anything too profound or original from that kind of story.

Are we back to criticizing other people for having an opinion? Get off your damn high horse, sheesh.



themanwithnoname's law: As an America's sales or NPD thread grows longer, the probabilty of the comment "America = World" [sarcasticly] being made approaches 1.