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highwaystar101 said:

@ ScifiBoy - I think facts seem to point that Jesus wasn't an individual but an anthropomorphic personification of a group of Jewish breakaways, in fact I once read that references to Jesus being one person only became widely used in the 2nd century.

 

The thing is no-one will ever know.

The facts don't point to that though... it's why such a theory is completly uncredible... it's seen as up their with the "moon landing was faked", 9-11 was an inside job and conspiracy theories like Zeitgeist.


There is more evidence for Jesus then a great number of historical figures taken for granted as real.



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Kasz, don't doubt facts. They are facts that go against conventional wisdom (and what makes sense). And thus, they are factual.



 

 

MontanaHatchet said:
highwaystar101 said:
Actually on a side note, I've never understood why Jesus is portrayed as a white guy in the west. I mean when you consider his given ethnicity and nationality the colour of his skin would probably not be white.

It's just always puzzled me to how this came about, I mean I think everyone accepts that he is not white, but he is portrayed that way.

Jesus is portrayed as white because that was what people wanted to see him as. As Christianity spread to Europe, nobody in Europe wanted to believe that Jesus looked like their arch enemies (the Arabians). As such, they changed his image to something more fitting to European culture. He stills looks eccentric (long hair and beard) to keep him distinctive, but he was still made to be white and brown-haired. Most people in the west still view him like that because it's been his portrayal for a long time, and most shows (The Simpsons, Family Guy) find the depiction to have far more comedic effect. It's not going away anytime soon.

This. And you can't pass up these verses either ...

Rev. 1:14 "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;" I don't know any whites with hair like wool, unless they have help from chemicals.

Revelation 2:18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze..."



What, son, what? New York, New York!!!

Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:

@ ScifiBoy - I think facts seem to point that Jesus wasn't an individual but an anthropomorphic personification of a group of Jewish breakaways, in fact I once read that references to Jesus being one person only became widely used in the 2nd century.

 

The thing is no-one will ever know.

The facts don't point to that though... it's why such a theory is completly uncredible... it's seen as up their with the "moon landing was faked", 9-11 was an inside job and conspiracy theories like Zeitgeist.


There is more evidence for Jesus then a great number of historical figures taken for granted as real.

It's just my interpretation of what I have heard, I mean many people believe or don't believe in Jesus because they have interpreted the facts differently.

I think a large religious movement is likely. The first written gospel of Jesus was the gospel of Mark which was written c70 A.D. I mean until this point Jesus' stories were largely only told orally so the likelihood that the stories were twisted during this period is fairly high. And the gospel of Mark has several variants and many ommisions that have been implemented over time from what I understand. And the bible wasn't even widely read in a way which the reader could interpret themselves for centuries after due to illiteracy, only to be interpreted in the way preachers wanted. I just think that over time 'they' could have become 'he' quite easily.

I don't know though, it's not like it's something I've extensively researched or anything it's just a general evolution of my ideas over time.



highwaystar101 said:
Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:

@ ScifiBoy - I think facts seem to point that Jesus wasn't an individual but an anthropomorphic personification of a group of Jewish breakaways, in fact I once read that references to Jesus being one person only became widely used in the 2nd century.

 

The thing is no-one will ever know.

The facts don't point to that though... it's why such a theory is completly uncredible... it's seen as up their with the "moon landing was faked", 9-11 was an inside job and conspiracy theories like Zeitgeist.


There is more evidence for Jesus then a great number of historical figures taken for granted as real.

It's just my interpretation of what I have heard, I mean many people believe or don't believe in Jesus because they have interpreted the facts differently.

I think a large religious movement is likely. The first written gospel of Jesus was the gospel of Mark which was written c70 A.D. I mean until this point Jesus' stories were largely only told orally so the likelihood that the stories were twisted during this period is fairly high. And the gospel of Mark has several variants and many ommisions that have been implemented over time from what I understand. And the bible wasn't even widely read in a way which the reader could interpret themselves for centuries after due to illiteracy, only to be interpreted in the way preachers wanted. I just think that over time 'they' could have become 'he' quite easily.

I don't know though, it's not like it's something I've extensively researched or anything it's just a general evolution of my ideas over time.

You know, you make some very interesting points. I am a show-me kind of person. I don't believe most things I see or hear. However, if I have first-hand experience, I'm likely to believe it.

I think if you saw something that was a miracle - and no way to justify it being just luck, I do believe you'd change your tune (I don't know you - I'm just talking in general).



What, son, what? New York, New York!!!

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highwaystar101 said:
Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:

@ ScifiBoy - I think facts seem to point that Jesus wasn't an individual but an anthropomorphic personification of a group of Jewish breakaways, in fact I once read that references to Jesus being one person only became widely used in the 2nd century.

 

The thing is no-one will ever know.

The facts don't point to that though... it's why such a theory is completly uncredible... it's seen as up their with the "moon landing was faked", 9-11 was an inside job and conspiracy theories like Zeitgeist.


There is more evidence for Jesus then a great number of historical figures taken for granted as real.

It's just my interpretation of what I have heard, I mean many people believe or don't believe in Jesus because they have interpreted the facts differently.

I think a large religious movement is likely. The first written gospel of Jesus was the gospel of Mark which was written c70 A.D. I mean until this point Jesus' stories were largely only told orally so the likelihood that the stories were twisted during this period is fairly high. And the gospel of Mark has several variants and many ommisions that have been implemented over time from what I understand. And the bible wasn't even widely read in a way which the reader could interpret themselves for centuries after due to illiteracy, only to be interpreted in the way preachers wanted. I just think that over time 'they' could have become 'he' quite easily.

I don't know though, it's not like it's something I've extensively researched or anything it's just a general evolution of my ideas over time.

That's far different from saying Jesus didn't exist.

For example there is no historical evidence for Socrates until after his death.

The evidence comes mostly from his two students... who in reality could of been the same person... and then a parody on philosphers where "Socrates" is portrayed as the lead villian.

The Socrates proof is only slighlty stronger then Jesus because it happend closer to his death.

The truth is though... not much was written about anyone until they were dead... hell not much was written about anyone at all.

None of Socrates work really lives on however.

Jesus was... up until decades after his death... fairly unremarkable compaired to many other people... it wasn't until later that his story became worth writing because his movement started catching on to the mainstream.

Josephus is the biggest Jewish scholar... and he wrote in rome... exactly what the roman emperor wanted him to write... as did everybody in that period.  History was a state controlled tool back then.

 

To say Jesus didn't exist is basically to say nobody existed for sure until we developed video cameras... and do we please have the video tape.

 

Sure some of Jesus miracles were "top of the line" compared to miracle makers... but why should someone in Rome believe he did it?  which is pretty much where all the historians lived.  Even the ones who wrote about stuff in Judea.



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SciFiBoy said:
SciFiBoy said:
who?

id like to know more about this person before i guess at what there ethnic or religious background may have been

so...no-one knows who he was or anything about him then?

and i mean facts...not fiction...till then...the answer to the OP is "I don't know and I don't see why i should care" 

Hold up. Regardless of your religious views (or lack of them), you can't deny that Jesus existed in the time period. If you doubt that, then you must doubt every single historical figure of that time and before then as well.



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outlawauron said:
SciFiBoy said:
SciFiBoy said:
who?

id like to know more about this person before i guess at what there ethnic or religious background may have been

so...no-one knows who he was or anything about him then?

and i mean facts...not fiction...till then...the answer to the OP is "I don't know and I don't see why i should care" 

Hold up. Regardless of your religious views (or lack of them), you can't deny that Jesus existed in the time period. If you doubt that, then you must doubt every single historical figure of that time and before then as well.

i still dont follow

i wasnt saying that a man called jebus did not exist, just asking who he was and why i should care. 



Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:
Kasz216 said:

That's far different from saying Jesus didn't exist.

For example there is no historical evidence for Socrates until after his death.

The evidence comes mostly from his two students... who in reality could of been the same person... and then a parody on philosphers where "Socrates" is portrayed as the lead villian.

The Socrates proof is only slighlty stronger then Jesus because it happend closer to his death.

The truth is though... not much was written about anyone until they were dead... hell not much was written about anyone at all.

None of Socrates work really lives on however.

Jesus was... up until decades after his death... fairly unremarkable compaired to many other people... it wasn't until later that his story became worth writing because his movement started catching on to the mainstream.

Josephus is the biggest Jewish scholar... and he wrote in rome... exactly what the roman emperor wanted him to write... as did everybody in that period.  History was a state controlled tool back then.

 

To say Jesus didn't exist is basically to say nobody existed for sure until we developed video cameras... and do we please have the video tape.

 

Sure some of Jesus miracles were "top of the line" compared to miracle makers... but why should someone in Rome believe he did it?  which is pretty much where all the historians lived.  Even the ones who wrote about stuff in Judea.

I agree, I think the true facts behind most historical figures are highly debatable.

I wouldn't say Jesus didn't exist, the roots of the Christian movement had to start somewhere and I think it *could* started with a group as opposed to a single person. It's just that over time I think the 'group' has been changed to a single person through oral story telling and altering texts.

Perhaps my idea of the Christian movement had a spiritual leader which could be given an approximation to Jesus, but I don't think he is what we would call Jesus Christ* per se...

*I mean one guy travelling the land and helping/teaching people single handedly.