Handheld WRPG's? WTF? Where?

Turn-based combat is orignally from WRPG's, not JRPG's.

What would you like to discuss?  Most discussions I prefer to take part in are filled with facts and well, there aren't many to be found here.

I've been playing RPGs for decades.  I started WRPGs with their tabletop roots (D&D, WW, etc) and older titles like Ultima and Wizardry, and I started JRPGs with games like Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior.  I still enjoy these genres to this day and they're among my favorite of all video game genres.  It is a fact that I enjoy both.

However, even if I preferred one to the other, I couldn't use my opinion to objectively say one is better than the other.  This isn't like having a 10" TV from 1993 compared to a 50" LCD from 2008 where you can objectively say that one is better with almost no room to argue.  This is like putting Pepsi versus Coca Cola.  They are both similar offerings that both compete for your time and money.  Most people have their opinions.  Some like both, some prefer one, and some find both equally nasty.  None of those opinions is wrong nor is any of them more valid than the others.

Don't let that stop you though.  Continue championing your views.  Just know that no matter how many times or how loudly you state your opinions, they will always remain just that--your opinions and nothing more.

It is my opinion, as probably part of the target market for both JRPG and WRPG producers (I buy and enjoy both) that what also matters is how well the game presents it's attempts at trying to promote thought. One of my problems with JRPGs is that they often try to sound smarter than they really are, and present what interesting ideas they have very badly. On the other hand, games like mass effect have impressed me in that they present them well. Not compared to, say, a book, but better than, say, a hollywood movie...

I haven't played Xenosaga however, so I won't comment on that game. Just giving my 2 cents: From what I've played of JRPGs, and i've played a fair amount (not a super veteran but.... quite a few) they have a delivery problem.

I used to really love JRPGs back when I was in high school and college. Final Fantasy VII was a revolutionary gaming moment for me.

As I have grown older and got married I have a harder time dealing with the weak main characters, apathy and grinding battle sequences to level up. I still like to play a good JRPG every now and then, but they don't hold the same appeal for me any longer.

I don't necesarrily agree that WRPG games are better than JRPG games just in the sense that they are made for two totally different audiences/markets.

I have tried to get in to the past few Final Fantasy games even and failed to be engaged by them. Final Fantasy is normally the best that the JRPG crowd has to offer. I find that I should just go put in a movie and watch a fantasy story line instead of battling through the game.

I do agree with comments that WRPG doesn't engage my story/emotional side with the characters of the games. I do agree with this also. Mass Effect was a great game and probably the best WRPG story I have seen. Yet in the end I still didn't feel the attachment to the characters and story that I felt so many years ago playing Final Fantasy VII and VIII.

I guess it is just like novels and movies. Certain games will ring true during certain periods of your life and define and grow you in those moments, but as you grow and time trudges on you may venture onwards to continue your journey.

While this is true, there's something to be said for innovation, the push forward, moving beyond, reaching out there... you know.

The fact we still have Ultima3-like gameplay pushed in 2009 like it was the second coming... well. There's some new ideas on the edges of mainstream but the two premier franchises are firmly rooted in the past and they are dragging down the whole genre. Stagnation leads to extinction.

JRPG's are psychologically targeted towards tweens and teenagers, hence the characters look. Those games are made for them and they are not marketed towards adults. Adults can buy them, but thats just the way it goes. I used to love JRPG's myself, but I grew out of them, because I wanted more in a game. My friends got me into pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons, WOW and Champions of Norrath, and I loved it, but had to quit early before I wasted too much of my time after highschool. I went into an RPG shop with my friends to play Dungeons and Dragons one day and most said that they didn't play JRPG's very much, because they aren't RPG's; but they do collect anime. I was confused. I was living off of the old glory of FFVII, so I can definitely relate. I tried arguing the validity of a JRPG to Hardcore RPG fans and was totally destroyed. The whole concept of what they said made perfect sense. Most of the JRPG fans I know, grew up just like me on Playstation and Nintendo products, before I even played real RPG's.

Let me share with you my concept of a video game franchise and maybe you will find it insightful.

Before going further I should mention that in business, great achievements fall into two categories.  The first is horizontal and it is, as you mentioned, innovation.  It represents the addition of new things.  The second is vertical and it is improvement.  It represents the honing, upgrading, and overhauling of existing features.

To me, a video game franchise is characterized by its gameplay.  When I buy a Mario Kart game, I expect to play a racing game with Mario characters throwing crazy items like shells and bananas at each other.  When I buy a Punch Out game, I expect to play a memory/timing-focused boxing game.  When we go from Punch Out to Super Punch Out to Punch Out Wii, the gameplay more or less stays the same.  The game is improved and enhanced in each iteration but it doesn't deviate from the gameplay that defines it.

When you use phrases "firmly rooted in the past" and terms like "stagnation," it says to me that you have unrealistic expectations.  Punch Out is not going to suddenly become Mario Kart.  It should not jump too far from the gameplay that defines its franchise.  This is a good thing.  The people who enjoy the gameplay of Punch Out will always enjoy the gameplay of Punch Out.  If someone comes along with ideas that will radically change that gameplay then that is the time that a new IP should be created or at worst a spinoff to capitalize on the existing IP's fanbase however not an addition to the main franchise.

I believe that existing franchises should move only vertically.  They should improve themselves and become better over time however they should not morph into completely new games.  Horizontal movement should be done through new IPs and spinoffs so as not to compromise the integrity of the franchise.

Sadly, we end up with misfits every once in a while that do not follow this.  Super Paper Mario was a disappointment for many, not because it was a bad game but because it was missing that excellent Paper Mario gameplay that many gamers had come to expect and love.  I personally hope the next one is true to the designs of the first two.

Well then of course you think JRPG's are stagnating, since you only count turn-based RPG's as included in the genre, while it seems any RPG made in the West counts for WRPG's to you (I mean c'mon, how can you not count Kingdom Hearts as a JRPG but WoW counts as a WRPG?).  JRPG's are more varied than you give them credit for.

WOW is an RPG, but an MMORPG. You affect the storyline (which is never ending) and you make decisions and exp, then go out into an open world, trading, fighting, speaking amongst other people. You attack kingdoms with your team of customized heroes or villains whilst being able to deal with people as you see fit. You choose to join or leave groups or work with multiple groups. Everything in that world is at your finger tips and isn't linear like JRPG's. This embodies what an RPG is. I am not saying WRPG's are better than JRPG's, because that is subjective and never was my argument. I'm stating that JRPG's aren't RPG's and the only thing giving them that title is their turn-based gameplay style. Final Fantasy Versus will not be a JRPG, yet JRPG fans are raving about that game more than the main game.   

Oh yes, and if you think Kingdom hearts is an RPG just by virtue of experience points, then I guess UFC: Undisputed is a fighter RPG. I know its not; do you?