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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Ubisoft Dev: PS3 Can't Handle AI as well as the 360

Resistance was what 3 threads and had some of the best AI I've ever faced on a console game so UbiSoft has no excuse for their developers to not have enough knowledge with the added help of the tools Sony has released to help them develop games make great PS3 games. With PCs having 4 cores now doesnt that mean they will have trouble making PC games too now?



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I don't think Ubisoft should be taken even remotely serious anymore.
Ever since their "The PS3 can't run Splinter Cell: Conviction", I'd take everything they say with a nice, and biased, grain of salt.

 EDIT: Whether or not it is harder to do on the PS3 makes no difference. Ubisoft is saying it isn't possible on the PS3, and that simply is not true.



ssj12 said:
Resistance was what 3 threads and had some of the best AI I've ever faced on a console game so UbiSoft has no excuse for their developers to not have enough knowledge with the added help of the tools Sony has released to help them develop games make great PS3 games. With PCs having 4 cores now doesnt that mean they will have trouble making PC games too now?

Are you suggesting that games published by Sony don't have an edge on the PS3 tools versus a 3rd party developer?



Quickdraw McGraw said:
I don't think Ubisoft should be taken even remotely serious anymore.
Ever since their "The PS3 can't run Splinter Cell: Conviction", I'd take everything they say with a nice, and biased, grain of salt.

LOL...WOW that was funny because your true Quickdraw McGraw...I can't trust or believe them anymore.



MontanaHatchet said:
leo-j said:
Soriku said:
I don't know, but it seems the PS3 is too hard to develop for resulting in worse AI, etc. 360 is hard too but not nearly as hard as the PS3.

And again I agree, developers are used to using 2 or 3 threads, ubisoft once stated its impossible to work with 7 threads at the same time. Killzone 2 is an example of how much BS they are saying, as well as bringing into the public.


The problem is that Killzone 2 has a budget of 41 million dollars. That's the highest budget of any game ever made...by far.

The way he said it made me think that he was tired of being asked why it wasn't on the PS3 and he just needed a BS answer so the interviewer would drop the subject. That's my opinion.

Besides, no game to date could use AI well enough that the PS3 couldn't handle it.

Its not an issue of it being impossible on a PS3 - just being a lot more difficult to write. I know enough about the architecture of both machines (and have been coding for more than 20years), so I know this as fact.

When creating a PS3 from scratch, it wouldn't be that hard to design AI that works efficiently on the CPU.

...

Don't bring Killzone into the equation. The AI requirements are completely different, the game is different, etc. Its a game that is obviously designed to take the strengths of the PS3 into account. 

 



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shams said:

In a way, they are correct. The architecture of the SPUs makes it very hard to compile/run AI on them - easily anyway (anyone know if there is a general C/C++ compiler for the SPUs?).

But the game would have to process a huge amount of complex AI for this to be true. Only then would it soak up too much CPU on the main PS3 CPU (non-SPU), and result in a lack of cycles to drive the other processes (or control the SPUs).

...

So - it could very well be true, or it could be a load of BS. Only a technical developer for Ubisoft (someone actually working on the game) would really know.

 


There is a general C compiler for the SPUs, and it has lots of useful specific functions to program efficiently (like performing SIMD operations and shuffling and what not).  What the SPUs are especially bad at is traversing dynamically allocated data structures or accessing random places in memory, which can be important for AI.

With clever programming, you can offload some AI tasks to the SPUs, especially if you can batch them efficiently, put them into lists, that sort of thing.



shams said:
MontanaHatchet said:
leo-j said:
Soriku said:
I don't know, but it seems the PS3 is too hard to develop for resulting in worse AI, etc. 360 is hard too but not nearly as hard as the PS3.

And again I agree, developers are used to using 2 or 3 threads, ubisoft once stated its impossible to work with 7 threads at the same time. Killzone 2 is an example of how much BS they are saying, as well as bringing into the public.


The problem is that Killzone 2 has a budget of 41 million dollars. That's the highest budget of any game ever made...by far.

The way he said it made me think that he was tired of being asked why it wasn't on the PS3 and he just needed a BS answer so the interviewer would drop the subject. That's my opinion.

Besides, no game to date could use AI well enough that the PS3 couldn't handle it.

Its not an issue of it being impossible on a PS3 - just being a lot more difficult to write. I know enough about the architecture of both machines (and have been coding for more than 20years), so I know this as fact.

When creating a PS3 from scratch, it wouldn't be that hard to design AI that works efficiently on the CPU.

...

Don't bring Killzone into the equation. The AI requirements are completely different, the game is different, etc. Its a game that is obviously designed to take the strengths of the PS3 into account. 

 

Correct on that shams. Killzone is a game directly developed for the PS3 so Killzone shouldn't even be brought up in this discussion. Splinter Cell is multi-platform game and Ubisoft find it easier to develop for the Xbox 360 then the PS3. I don' care we got MGS4 anyway and Konami isn't complaining, the only thing their complaining about is the user base thats all.

 



Dolla Dolla said:
ssj12 said:
Resistance was what 3 threads and had some of the best AI I've ever faced on a console game so UbiSoft has no excuse for their developers to not have enough knowledge with the added help of the tools Sony has released to help them develop games make great PS3 games. With PCs having 4 cores now doesnt that mean they will have trouble making PC games too now?

Are you suggesting that games published by Sony don't have an edge on the PS3 tools versus a 3rd party developer?


 no im saying Sony is handing out assistance for developers. 1st party devs developed the tools Sony gave to 3rd party so 3rd party should be able to accomplish tasks just as well as 1st party.

 How would 1st party not have an edge on the tools when they developed them? 



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
Amazing discussion about being wrong
Official VGChartz Folding@Home Team #109453
 
Entroper said:
shams said:

In a way, they are correct. The architecture of the SPUs makes it very hard to compile/run AI on them - easily anyway (anyone know if there is a general C/C++ compiler for the SPUs?).

But the game would have to process a huge amount of complex AI for this to be true. Only then would it soak up too much CPU on the main PS3 CPU (non-SPU), and result in a lack of cycles to drive the other processes (or control the SPUs).

...

So - it could very well be true, or it could be a load of BS. Only a technical developer for Ubisoft (someone actually working on the game) would really know.

 


There is a general C compiler for the SPUs, and it has lots of useful specific functions to program efficiently (like performing SIMD operations and shuffling and what not). What the SPUs are especially bad at is traversing dynamically allocated data structures or accessing random places in memory, which can be important for AI.

With clever programming, you can offload some AI tasks to the SPUs, especially if you can batch them efficiently, put them into lists, that sort of thing.

Cool, thanks for the info.

So it should be possible to offload the same AI to the SPUs - just not particularly efficient (which should matter). Even at 10% efficiency, a couple of SPUs should be able to handle all the AI requirements (constant random main memory accesses might kill the data cache though).

Its just a question of difficulty anyway - as it always is (i.e. you can port anything to any device - just a question of results... i.e. Assassins Creed on the DS, but not on the Wii!).

 

 



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Why didn't Sony just use a regular cpu like everyone else instead of trying to solve a problem that never existed? I can see how some people here might blame the software developers or claim they're lazy or that we just have to wait until "next year" but the fact remains that had Sony just built the thing PS3 from a game programmer's perspective instead of an engineering one we likely wouldn't be seeing all these delays, mediocre performance, and additional costs being associated with a lot of PS3 software.