@axumblade: LOL, that makes two of us not really being awake. BTW, looks like we're not doing too good today.

@GTAIV08: Your own reasoning gives an explanation to why most will say GT is better.

and after almost 4 years, what GT did you have, not even a full game, and xbox 360 user will get new forza game in 2009. in term of sales, GT5P, is not even good.

if GT fans is so big and so loyal, why GT5P not even have better sales than Forza 2

The entire point of this debate isn't to prove whether or not Forza and Gran Turismo IS just like real life, it's to figure out which game is MORE spot on in terms of car detail and accuracy. There are plenty of options in GT that can make the game as realistic as possible, but most people wouldn't have any fun because of the limits "realism" really offers. This is why the options in GT are always set as FAR away from "simulation" mode as possible. When GT is being developed, PD makes each cars' details as realistic and clean as possible, then they tweak the gameplay elements (such as driving aids) to make it accessible to the mainstream audience. With that out of the way. No, I have not fallen prey to marketing at all. I do realize that alot of the car manufactures let PD test their stuff early as a way to market their cars, it makes sense since GT has always sold the most. But what does that matter? This only that shows is that GT has better relationships than any other studio. Add it with the fact that PD spends more time and man power on their car models than anyone else and you'll have the most detailed/ realistic cars on the market. Also, I'm not talking about auto events where either Sony or Microsoft actually have their booths set up and running for marketing. Just talk to some of the fans there, the guys that are considered to be car enthusiast will typically recognize the accuracy of the subtle details that GT portrays for their favorite cars.

About LFS. c'mon. You really think I don't already know about this? LFS is basicly like GT4 with all the driving aids turned OFF. The cars themselves are NOT as detailed and accurate as GT's, they don't have the man power to get almost every detail right.

What killed Forza 2 for me was that I had 15 cars within two hours of playing.. the things where given away for free.. it felt cheap.

In GT I had to work for everything, it felt more gratifying.

i played gt back on the ps, and never understood why people liked it, it was never even the best back then, jerret &labonte stock car racing was, and it even had damage and licenced cars. but sony pushed gt, so i guess it becam big... forza is good, it is still in early versions though, i hope they bring back road racing, i doubt it will ever be as big as gt, just because of gts fallowing, but it continues to be a good and strong series and in my opion, more real than gt in terms of sim, and fx, for compareable versions.

edit, also as has become evident while reading more of these comments forza has no chance here to convince people  because it has to contend with both 3&4 good games people can bring different points from, prolog, and gt5...  if you mix all of those games togeather, and believe everything that is promised in gt5 will arive in it well no duh forza has no chance of being on equal footing,

i will say it will be interesting to see forza3 vs gt5 which look to be out around the same time, far more fair comparison, why not wait till then.... oh wait i know because as soon as they are out it will be gt 6 vs forza 4 or 5

Gran Turismo is much more known and often considered to be better, not to mention that Japan gives it an edge.

Monster Hunter Tri will be huge
-----------------------------------

I haven't played a GT since GT1, my old mates used to be obssesed with that game, I could never see why, honestly I preffered FZero on the GC, I guess I'm not a simulator guy, I did have a look at Prolog though and it just seems like much of the same, I'd honestly expect their sels to decline a bit, but I'm not familiar with racing fans to that extent to know the drop off rate or even take a guess... Oh well, looking at the ratio though I'd assume it could reach 5 million in it's first year maybe 2 million in it's first month... at worst it could sell as well as MGS4.

I believe the aspects of realism are a non-issue here in reality. Only thing that i can think of that would tick people off, is something called driving simulator not being simulator. The values of the games should be something completely different than the level of simulation.

You are basically just pointing out, that GT is merely a car simulator (and you're right in that one), not a driving simulator as it reads in the box.

PD does put effort into the game, but ther e have been better driving sims with more realism even before GT, but what was big with GT, was the scale and number of vehicles. If we would put driving games into the same line, in terms of realistic driving plus fun, Stunt Race FX leads by far.

Fair enough. All i was getting at was that no one does car detail and physics as well as PD does. The game engine itself (which includes crashing, AI, etc) is not the best, I've said this in the past. But in terms of the actual car detail opposed to how the cars react and look in real life, GT is tops. The sheer amount of man power and time they put into each car is a testament to this. Regardless, GT5 can be a clean cut simulator ( minus the "fun") if the player so chooses, just turn of the auto recovery, turn the simulation options to the highest and turn off all the driving aids.

The point is this, most "top of the line" racing sims can each hold their own and be the "best" given the right arguments (duh). Mr.Stickball said that it's "laughable" to think that GT (as a series) on par as Forza and that Forza is more realistic in every way than GT, and that is pure bullshit.

Bah, nevermind.