@Paul Warren: It does, but using such expressions as an example of absolute quality is just stupidity. For the same reason you can say something sucks from your opinion, someone else can say that the same thing is the greatest thing ever existed. Now that you were using the review scores as an example, and if the scores would mean absolute quality, the sales would equal the score. But since they don't, the scores only imply the personal preference of the reviewers.

@Yushire: Why the new audience catering? Because that's the only way to get them into gaming. Then they are catered forward, until they are a part of the (current) core audience.

"New audience" isn't kids, kids are the very core audience and always have been. Parents are new audience.
I think you should my post again, since i specifically mentioned Sony having Singstar and Buzz to cater the new audience. But what Sony didn't do, is upstreamed the new audience, what Nintendo is doing. Nintendos vision is to get everyone to play all the games, when Sony focused on specific games for specific audiences. The Sony way isn't going to increase the sales of the the core games.
The last Nintendo published party/minigame collection so far, was Mario Party 8 (Q1 07), so there have been a lot more games than just party games or minigames. The party/minigames at the after the release, were supposed to show the public/devs what you do with the Wii Remote. After that phase, Nintendo haven't been putting them out. Now they focus other games. They have put out SMG, MP3, MKW, Brawl, for example, after their last party game. And party games aren't actually new audience games.
There are some genres that Nintendo is leaving to 3rd parties as a whole, such as FPS, so the lack of the genre is because of Nintendo having no interest on them and 3rd parties having no interest on Wii for the genre.

As for Z&W and NMH, they have a huge sales potential later on their life, due to the audience upstreaming, but as i said earlier, one of the problems in the industry is, that only the sequels are selling.

Going too far? They have so far released 3 purely new audience games and a shitload of core audience games on Wii. If Wii Fit is selling huge numbers, that's because people like it. I could see your complaint if the numbers were the other way around. Oh, and the "Wii Gardening" is Pikmin 3.
The mainstream isn't likely to jump to MKW, they jump it after Wii Sports and that's the idea. They played Wii Fit -> Wii Sports -> Mario Kart Wii -> Super Mario Galaxy, a pattern where Wii Fit is the "gateway drug" to get people to buy the Wii, then Wii Sports came with the Wii, is introducing them into competetive play, Wii Wheel in Mario Kart Wii is getting them into more the same fun they had with the earlier games and Super Mario Galaxy has the same Mario in it that MKW had. The pattern is pretty obvious.
Think about the pattern and tell me who Nintendo is catering in the end? The core or the blue ocean?

For the last chapter, SMB worked as a gateway drug back then, just like the new audience games now. And it was the same back then with Nintendo destroying gaming with NES and SMB, but, what do you think, did it? I doubt that even the cinematic games will go anywhere, although i'd prefer going back to skill based games instead of cinematic games.

@OkeyDokey: The difference is, that we're used to Nintendo making a quality game despite the subject and used to Ubisoft making a bad quality game despite the hype.

And sale are the only objective way to measure the games quality. Too bad, but that's just the way it is. The same issues that makes the quality of music being subjective, makes the quality of game being subjective.

@ookaze and bdbdbd----> So who really have to blame on lack of core games on the Wii arent Ninty themselves but the third parties, so do you mean that even with Ninty not restricting third parties on producing games theyre too stubborn to not make worthy games on the Wii?

We are always blaming on things arent we? So its those third parties and not Ninty had to blame, but why even me thinks Ninty have to blame? I think its our human natrure.

So the question is... what is the problem with 3rd parties anyway?!! Do 3rd parties really wants to produce games on HD consoles even the risk of developing it? And not the leader the Wii? Do even 3rd parties knew what will happened in 2009 if this sales of Wii continues to happen?

BornFirst; yes this gen is killing me, I'm left with three basically useless consoles to choose from and almost no decent games worthwhile that I can't get on my PC.
The "bitterness" in this thread for me stems from the senseless worship of characters such as John Lucas and Malstrom, folks who have fired numerous shots and have happened to hit a target might not be sharpshooters and that is the core element to my entire argument.
By all means, kudos goes where it is due, but elevating people to a near godlike status is childish, I have my preferences as well but could never imagine letting someones words weigh this heavily simply because they agree with my bias.
I certainly approve of your effort and I can see why you'd feel we shouldn't post in this thread, but if me and Paul Warren and other people of the same perception did not parttake this would've not even been a discussion and none of the above points would've been made by either side so I hope you can see the value of a good debate.
The fact that everyone refutes our/my points by way of making me look like a desperate moron for not kissing Malstrom' arse is another thing, and I won't get into that in detail, I've gotten used to such rhetoric.
But, for the love of God, let people disagree with things without labelling them desperate or fanboyish, it could be as simple as this; some people have another take on things. I make it a point not to dismiss a persons argument or opinion solely based on his/her disagreeing with me.

PS: For the record (many seem to think I'm a Sony fanboy of some kind), this is how I feel about the console wars in short;

1: Nintendo; get some proper, non-carnival support and I'll consider it, make some goddamn games for gamers (outside of 1st party).

2: Sony; Get the price down already, BC and simply; make games at all.

3: Microsoft; Make a fucking console that works so I can actually play your games.

I could agree with you here but I cant... The debaters here compels me I cant do but to agree. About Malstrom I agree with some of his points, but Im disagreeing with him because if I agree with him it only means that I agree that gaming as we know it will be change and core gamers will die, atleast core gaming as we knew it will die. Thats why im counter-debating here to point my opinions across. But then, some members here have different interpretation of what Malstrom really meant, and I have differenty interpretation of Malstrom's articles.

If we're defining rules as loosely as "someone is a cop" and "someone is a robber" then technically Wii Music also has rules. Use the Wiimote to make music. It COULD also involve skill if people were competing to make the song sound the best or most accurate. Depending on how you play, Wii Music fits both descriptions I posted for "game".

Yes, you're exactly right. That is why we're defending it. Nintendo has a reputation of quality, of making games that change your perception of what a game is, that define genres and change the industry. Ubisoft does not.

Based off their history, I trust Nintendo enough to know there's a reason behind why they're making this. I look for that reason and try to understand it instead of instantly passing it off as shovelware.

Perhaps you're right in large part. But as bdbdbd points out, Nintendo has a long history of making high-quality games targeted towards non-traditional audiences. By contrast Ubisoft, and most other publishers, treat those audiences as idiots, and give those projects to their fourth-stringers. Do you not see why one deserves the benefit of the doubt, and the other doesn't?

More to the point, Miyamoto's been working on this for two years. How often in his career has the man misfired?

Ok ok. You guys all win. Wii-Music is a game. A shitty game I would be too bored to play. You win.

Yeah, what dharh said, plus the Wii is an infallible golden egg that has been **** out of God's ***

why are we all arguing with paul_warren. He is without doubt the most self-opinionated person on this site and hasn't realised yet that he's in a minority of one with his opinions. I am surprised he is still arguing. Then again though, considering he is totally ignorant of other peoples viewpoints and can't be bothered to check this site or listen to fact or logic then i suppose that explains why.