*sob* That was like one of my own editorials. *sob* Well done, noname. Few people seem to understand that games are games but you nailed it perfectly.

noname, that was some serious pwnage.

@nonname2200

This writing style of yours where you use ten sentences to describe something where you could have used just one, continuously using big grand words when they are not needed and talking in a condescending way has gone beyond cute, you don't sound like an intellegent person it comes across as you trying to cover up your lack of facts and at the same time you're talking down to me which doesn't work.

The fact still remains the wii isn't stealing away 360's and the ps3's 3rd party support and just because monster hunter 3 has jumped ship doesn't mean anything when 99% of all other 3rd party games haven't. EA creating a new studio to create wii games isn't stealing away 3rd party support from the 360 and ps3 either, the clue is in the word new, new people have been added to make additional games, the same amount of teams are still making 360 and ps3 games. The list of 3rd party quality games that are coming to the wii pales in comparision to the 360 and ps3. Do you even have any idea how many quality 3rd party games are coming out in the remainder of this year for the 360 and ps3? Here you go:

Grand Theft Auto IV
Race Driver: Grid
Enemy Territory: Quake Wars
Dragon Ball Z: Burst Limit
Battlefield: Bad Company
Warhammer: Battle March
Rock Band
Robert Ludlum's The Bourne Conspiracy
The Wheelman
Soul Calibur IV
Golden Axe: Beast Rider
Saints Row 2
Don King Presents: Prizefighter
Midnight Club: Los Angeles
Brothers In Arms: Hell's Highway
Driver 5
Unreal Tournament III
Mercenaries 2: World In Flames
Silent Hill: Homecoming
Tekken 6
Aliens: Colonial Marines
Command & Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath
Just Cause 2
Dead Space
The Chronicles Of Riddick: Assault On Dark Athena
Fracture
Tom Clancy's HAWX
Tomb Raider: Underworld
Far Cry 2
Tom Clancy's EndWar
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Conviction
Prototype
World In Conflict: Soviet Assault
Highlander
Red Faction: Guerrilla
Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe
50 Cent: Blood On The Sand
Operation Flashpoint 2: Dragon Rising
Street Fighter 4
Fallout 3

Miyamoto is first party and like you said yourself doesn't count. Just because you can find quotes from one or two developers doesn't mean ALL developers share the same opinion and at the end of the day developers don't like upsetting platform holders so very few are likely to come out and say bad things about one of the three major hardware makers. The people i know in development are largely from EA and it's not just them and their teams, it's ALL the teams they talk to (including non ea teams) say the same thing, nobody given the choice wants to be stuck on the wii project because it's unforfilling, doesn't stretch them at all in the slightest and is incredibly boring.

This time last year wii fans were saying wait till e3 then lots of quality 3rd party games will be annouced....didn't happen, then they said wait till the end of the year.....again it didn't happen, then it was wait till early 2008.....yet again it didn't happen and now it's wait for this years e3. Well until all these quality games get annouced and are released and do infact turnout to be quality games then the wii will get called out on it's lack of 3rd party support, it's like the people saying wait for the price drops for the 360 and ps3 or wait for metal gear, final fantasy and gran turismo then the 360 or ps3 will out sell the wii, well until that does happen it's just wishfull thinking and hasn't happened, just like the wii getting a whole bunch of quality 3rd party games.

Wether you like it or not there are different types of gamers. Just like their are different types of music fans, just like their are different types of car owners. A music fan who likes death metal and goes to rock concerts and likes mosh pits is not the same type of music fan that wears posh clothes and goes to the opera. A car owner who buys sports cars and likes to go racing is not the same type of car owner who buys a family car and does the school run every day. Their are different types of gamers and as much as you idealistically want to lump all gamers into together you can't. The word casual gamer didn't start with the wii, it was used well before that with the people who just used to play singstar or eye toy on the ps2. Just because something is popular doesn't make it the best that's another thing you need to learn.

I never said grand theft auto 4 is just a hardcore game because the fact is it appeals to both hardcore and casual gamers just like mario kart does, however the ratios of hardcore to casual fans varies between the two games, mario kart is a game aimed at casual people but also has a hardcore following where as grand theft auto 4 is a hardcore game that also has a casual following. The audences that will buy wii fit and mario kart are mostly different to that of grand theft auto 4 so they are not competing directly with each other.

Also your points about trying to disprove hardcore and casual games by reffering to games that are front loaded and have legs falls on it's face because i said these types of games GENERALLY have these sales patterns so their are exceptions to these general rules. 

But you know what i've seen many posters like you before and instead of talking about the original issue which is the wii's poor 3rd party sales, as you get proved wrong on each point you try and side track the issue by moving onto other things like the definition of casual and hardcore gamers. The simple fact is despite the wii having over a 6 million lead over the 360 it still can't outsell it in 3rd party sales and that's with developers not releasing any major games for the 360 in over a month due to them not wanting to go head to head with grand theft auto 4 and the wii's 3rd party sales getting a boost from mario and sonic at the olympics which contains first party characters and inflates sales. Until the wii sells the most 3rd party software on a regular basis and at a rate which is similar to it's hardware marketshare then the wii's 3rd party sales will be critized.

Lots of flaws with what you said:

1. The wii hasn't had any major third party releases either but if you'd read what i've said in my other posts you'd understand why this favours the wii. Most of the wii's games are casual games and casual games generally start off selling slower than hardcore games but have longer legs. So for example say a game was released on the 360 10 weeks ago and a game was also released on the wii 10 weeks ago. In the first 5 weeks of sales the 360 game out sold the wii game but in the final 5 weeks the wii game out sold the 360 game even tho overall the 360 game still has the higher ltd sales. This is what has been happening in recent weeks and thats why the wii 3rd party sales are alot closer to the 360 3rd party sales then they usually are.

2. Discounting mario and sonic at the olympics just because it is old doesn't change the fact that it is the wii's top selling 3rd party game by a long way and it's selling this well because of first party characters being included.

3. Production values mean nothing to casual wii owners, if games sells were equal to production values then the wii wouldn't be where it is today.

4. Mircosofts first party sales are poor and i have never said otherwise but this still doesnt change the fact that despite the wii having 6 million more consoles out their it sells less 3rd party software than the 360 and it sells at a ratio far lower than it's hardware install base. 

Why do I suspect that 60% pales in comparison to the 3rd party support for the 360 and PS3.

You're talking about the combined sales for ONE publisher against EVERY OTHER publisher, and the best they can muster is 60%?

some people still doesnt understand that the 3rd party games thats coming out on PS3/Xbox360 this year have been developed for 2-1,5 years already and how many quality 3rd party games have been developed that long for the Wii? thats right not many

but thats starting to change now, just wait 6 -12 month then it will be a different story

It was also reported last year that 3rd party developers were putting their "C" teams on the Wii initially, which is why so many games were shovelware, but were planning on shifting their "A" teams more towards Wii development due to the console's success. How this is not taking away development from the 360 and PS3 I have no idea.

Sorry to hear that my writing style is not your cup of tea. I'll freely admit that I'm trying to improve the conciseness of my writings, but at the moment I use as few words as I think are necessary to get my point across. I would like to add, however, that it may have been better to point this out to me in a post that does not rival one of my own in length. Food for thought and all.

As to the rest of your post, I'm sad to see that the majority of what you've written is merely a reiteration of what you've said before, rather than a proper refutation of my own counterpoints. Ah, my apologies, I slipped again there, and used "big grand words" instead of smaller, more common ones. I'll stop doing that for the rest of this post, even if the *ahem* "big" words are the most appropriate. Actually, screw that. I'll write how I want to. You're perfectly welcome to despise my writing style, of course, but I'm afraid there's nothing you can ever do to get me to change it. However, I'm pleased to see that you did sort of address some of my points, so I willingly take you up on them.

Let us begin with your insistence that in spite of the counterexamples I served you, you continue to maintain that the people you know at EA all despise the Wii, that everyone they know feels the same, etc. etc. The reason that I selected Will Wright and Gabe Newell as my examples is that they are two of the industry's leading and most respected third party developers. I used them to represent the fact that, contrary to your earlier claim, third party developers don't hate working on the system.

Once again, I quote you your own words: "The best developers want to make the best games and the wii simply doesn't interest them." I then submitted two examples of some of the best developers who are, in fact, very interested in the Wii, more so than the other two systems. Does that mean that "ALL developers share the same opinion", as you asked in your last post? Hardly. Eric Capps went on record last week as having zero interest in the platform. Unfortunately, you seem to have gotten confused about what precisely we were discussing. You see, you are the person the made the claim I bolded in this paragraph. I then gave two examples that show that your blanket statement is wrong. Note that I limited myself to two for the sake of brevity, and also that those two are some of the biggest names in the industry. More imporantly, note that I never claimed that every developer out there is champing at the bit to develop for the Wii, because I know it's not a valid argument. You see, I prefer to make arguments that are supported by the data, and making a claim as outlandish as yours would violate this principle.

I would also like you note that I've provided reliable, verifiable sources to support my claim. Not only have you failed to defend your assertion that "the best developers want to make the best games and the wii simply doesn't interest them", you attempted to sidetrack it by inserting anecdotal evidence from your friends at EA, friends that the rest of us don't know and can't contact. I'm not impressed. Even if you are being honest about your friends' existence and beliefs, it is not enough to support your thesis, unless you honestly expect us all to believe that the people you know stand in for all of "the best developers," or that you expect us to simply take your word that "ALL the teams they talk to (including non ea teams) say the same thing." You cannot. As famousringo's signature says, "the plural of anecdote is not 'data.'" I thus repeat my earlier statement: I've shown you to be wrong. Now either edit your claim, or accept that you're incorrect.

Next on the agenda is your remark that until the "quality" third party games actually materialize, you'll remain skeptical. Fair enough. I believe a quick look through the list of games third parties have already released will show that several quality games are already out for the Wii. We've actually been playing them for a while, you know. But these are not the AAA, massive-budget games that I believe we were both referring to. I've already cited some of the reasons I strongly suspect that those games are coming, and that they're coming soon. Feel free to browse through my earlier posts on this thread and find them. Whether you choose to believe my reasoning or not is your prerogative. In the end, though, our individual opinons on this matter mean little. Time will soon tell which of us is right. You've not shown me anything that leads me to believe that it won't be me.

I did get a smile on my face when I read your newest post. You see, in the course of a few hours, you first gave me a criteria for what makes a game "hardcore" and what makes another "casual." I then pointed out the blatantly obvious: many "hardcore" games show precisely the same characteristics as "casual" games, and vice-versa. You then claim that although Grand Theft Auto will attract some casuals, "grand theft auto 4 is a hardcore game that also has a casual following," and that this somehow explains the fallacies I pointed out earlier. From this, I can only assume that you're not really reading my posts. I shall cut and paste my response to this, and hope that you catch it the second time.

ttp://money.cnn.com/2004/06/04/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm

I'm seeing a date, 2004. I'm reading the article, and it's about Grand Theft Auto III. When Take Two released Grand Theft Auto III, the "game came on the scene, with a revolutionary style of play, core gamers liked what they saw – and they began talking. Before long, it was readily apparent that casual gamers were listening...(w)hen 'Grand Theft Auto III' was originally released, no one had any idea it was going to be near as large as it was," said Taylor. "It took six to eight weeks before people realized something unusual was happening and that there was crossover appeal to that game."

Now, let me go into a bit more detail about what the rest of us read in this paragraph, as I assure you it completely contradicts your prior and more recent claims. It begins by noting that "hardcore" gamers were the first to play Grand Theft Auto III, but then it goes on to say that it began to appeal to "casuals." More important is the next sentence that I included. "No one had any idea that it was going to be as large as it was...it took six to eight weeks before people realized something unusual was happening and that there was crossover appeal to that game." What this means is simple: the "hardcore" may be responsible for Grand Theft Auto's initial sales, but it only became big when the "casuals" jumped on board.

It was those people who made the game what it is. Grand Theft Auto, which you and so many others consider to be a "hardcore" game, is mostly being bought and played by "casuals." the ratio of "hardcore" to "casuals" is probably quite similar between Mario Kart, the "casual" game, and Grand Theft Auto. That completely contradicts the very notion that there is some magical divide between "hardcores" and "casuals", since none of us seem to have the slightest idea how to identify and separate members of the two groups. I honestly could go on this point for pages and pages, citing game after game after game throughout the eras to prove just how incredibly bone-headed this notion of a divide between "casual" and "hardcore" gaming, but I'm thinking that even if Jesus himself descended from the heavens and told you that you're wrong on this issue, you'd still cling to your irrational beliefs on the matter. That's your right, of course, but until you show me something that makes me suspect I'm wrong, and that the reasons I posted earlier are somehow flawed, I and many others will continue to ignore you on this subject.

Alright, now it's time for the "stealing" third party support from the 360 and PS3. Once again, I've addressed this issue in my earlier post. And once again you've not shown me anything that persuades me that I'm the least bit wrong. This is not to say that I can not be. But you see, when you make a bald assertion, and then fail to support it with anything more than "well that's what I think", then I'm not going to take you too seriously. But again, for the sake of clarity, I shall delve into a bit more detail about what I said earlier. I'm glad to see that you admit that Monster Hunter 3 is a valid example.

I'm a bit confused, however, about your counterpoint concerning EA. You appear to assume that there is a warehouse somewhere that stores employees for third party developers to purchase whenever there's a need to host more projects. I'm fairly certain there's not. As monstrous as it is, even EA has finite resources and manpower. They may have reorganized the company flowchart to reflect the creation of a new division, but I can assure you that in order to man the division they had to transfer a lot of personnel from their other sections. Unless, of course, you believe that EA simply waved its hands and conjured up all those employees. I would also like to point out that every dollar that EA, and other companies, spend on developing games for the Wii is one less dollar that they can devote to the PS3 and 360. I would also like to point out that you ignored the other examples I gave of good third party support that we know is en route.

Finally, I would like to point out that as much as it may amuse the rest of us, your attempt to engage in a List Warz isn't particularly impressive. I refer to my earlier point about supporting one's arguments: you said that the Wii will continue to be criticized until its third party offering consistently outsell those of the 360 (why no love for the poor PS3? I'm sure it's not because including the PS3 would completely destroy your argument, so I'll be satisfied with thinking there must be some awesome reason for this glaring ommission that you're keeping private.) I believe I have done a pretty good job of showing that you're wrong in the eyes of the only people who's opinions on this subject really matter, i.e. the third party developers themselves. I even underlined this point earlier. Or did you think I was writing all of this just to rival Tolstoy in terms of the length of my submissions? Your list is a...decent counterpoint to the argument that the PS3 and 360 aren't seeing any third party support. Unfortunately for you, no one here has actually, y'know, said that. But hold onto that list, as I'm sure it will come in handy if you ever decide to post on nextgenwars.com. I'm sure you'll fit right in.

Sadly, this will be my final post to you on this issue. Looking back on what I've just wrote, all either of us is really doing is reiterating what was said earlier. Rather than continue to go around in circles, I'll satisfy myself by saying that you're wrong about the Wii being justifiably "critized." I've told you why I believe the current numbers are not a good indicator of what's actually been happening, and you've yet to impress me with anything you've said in response. If you ever feel that you have something impressive enough to change my mind, something which isn't just a regurgitation of what you've said over and over again, post it here in the forums, and notify me about it. You'll have to forgive me, though, if I don't exactly hold my breath.

 yes - u have to give the developers time to make the games. Once they decide to develop on the Wii, u can't expect it to come out the next month

Soon, more and more 3rd party titles will come 

 I will like to see other consoles Graph in Japan..