Now I prefer the 360 but its pretty obvious that the wii will eclipse the 360 in terms of 3rd party sales at some point in the future. That wont stop the 360 from being a huge success aswell. The 360 will still sell a lot of games.

1. To be honest, I take a LOT more points off for "dodging the point" than for "sneering", but you seem to mistake wordsmithing for snobbery -- his later posts do reek of condescension, but that was after the remarks you'd already made attacking his use of "big words".

2. noname2200 also mentioned Boom Blox and explained why that is a big deal in terms of third-party attention going to the Wii. I guess you ignored that. There are probably others that you similarly failed to notice, but I don't feel like reviewing the text for you right now. Sega has explicitly staked its future on the Wii. Considering that S&tSR was originally supposed to be the throwaway title compared to the "main" effort of Sonic the Hedgehog on the 360/PS3, that's a MAJOR shift. Mushroom Men is going to the Wii, and I happen to recall that noname2200 mentioned that as well. Either you just didn't read his posts, or there are some serious reading comprehension issues going on. I'm not going to do this for another three dozen titles because that would be stupid. You made a fair request; we SHOULD be able to name more than two games coming preferentially to the Wii instead of the 360/PS3. Unfortunately for you, we ALREADY DID.

3. Yes, he named only two out of the "tens of thousands" of people, but those two people happen to represent their respective DEVELOPERS and what's more two developers that happen to be among the best in the industry. So when you say that the best developers want to make good games and can't do it on the Wii quoteing those two people is highly relevant to disproving you. There are only a couple of guys (like Epic) that have positioned their companies as strongly against the Wii as these two have done to stand with it. Now if you play the numbers game we'd have to figure out the total number of DEVELOPERS who have made public statements recently for or against the Wii, but either way please shut the hell up about random people with no real effect on the industry that you happen to personally know and therefore have anecdotes about.

4. Well if that's true then I apologize for that exaggeration and no I don't want you to prove it by posting an even bigger list. As for your point still standing, list-spamming is still not the best way to settle this. For instance, it is our belief that many of the titles that have gone over to the Wii have not been announced at all yet. Also, your list is preferential to the developers that happen to like announcing their stuff really early. Not saying that's necessarily biased but it is a limitation of the list-spam technique.

5. OK then, it's true that the debate has drifted somewhat but I'd disagree that it was intentional by either you or noname2200 -- and you both contributed to the drift. So, as to the original argument:

Hmm, you do make a good point. Are you prepared to do that research and show us the results? Because AFAIK you're the one who started all this, so I think it's fair that you have the burden.

6. EA wouldn't have canceled any games that were very far into development -- i.e. the ones we've heard about. It either would have canceled things that were in the early stage of predevelopment or pushed them back due to reduction in talent being devoted to it. You ask for evidence you ought to know does not necessarily exist even if the assertion is correct.

How can you fail to understand that EA and other developers have a finite level of resources and if the Wii is getting more then other efforts must be getting less? Are you saying that the NUMBER of games in development is exactly the same but now the 360/PS3 games are going to have skeleton crews on development? I'm sure that will end well.

7. I've stated before one of the problems with lists. Especially if some companies are more prone to announcing games years and years ahead of time *coughKZ2AfrikaFFXIIIcough* and others do not. But since you asked so nicely, I decided to count everything listed in IGN's Wii release list that wasn't published by Nintendo and came up with ~170. Take away about seven games marked as VC and there you go. Compare that with the 360: ~245. So yeah, it's getting about 50% more third-party stuff that's been announced so far. That's very substantial but not what I would call a crushing lead considering that we both know which way the wind is blowing and the list goes out to 2010. In fact, let's take those out -- 2008 only. 163-8 = 155. 245-28 = 217. Now it has 40% more. Still a big lead, but the Wii is already closing the gap!

Now yes, a lot of games on both sides are going to be shit, I didn't even ATTEMPT any kind of quality filter. But we can argue all day about what constitutes a "quality" release and that's another problem with listbombing. Perhaps more importantly, however, most publishers don't care if we think their games are shit as long as they sell.

Final-Fan said: 1. To be honest, I take a LOT more points off for "dodging the point" than for "sneering", but you seem to mistake wordsmithing for snobbery -- his later posts do reek of condescension, but that was after the remarks you'd already made attacking his use of "big words". 2. noname2200 also mentioned Boom Blox and explained why that is a big deal in terms of third-party attention going to the Wii. I guess you ignored that. There are probably others that you similarly failed to notice, but I don't feel like reviewing the text for you right now. Sega has explicitly staked its future on the Wii. Considering that S&tSR was originally supposed to be the throwaway title compared to the "main" effort of Sonic the Hedgehog on the 360/PS3, that's a MAJOR shift. Mushroom Men is going to the Wii, and I happen to recall that noname2200 mentioned that as well. Either you just didn't read his posts, or there are some serious reading comprehension issues going on. I'm not going to do this for another three dozen titles because that would be stupid. You made a fair request; we SHOULD be able to name more than two games coming preferentially to the Wii instead of the 360/PS3. Unfortunately for you, we ALREADY DID. 3. Yes, he named only two out of the "tens of thousands" of people, but those two people happen to represent their respective DEVELOPERS and what's more two developers that happen to be among the best in the industry. So when you say that the best developers want to make good games and can't do it on the Wii quoteing those two people is highly relevant to disproving you. There are only a couple of guys (like Epic) that have positioned their companies as strongly against the Wii as these two have done to stand with it. Now if you play the numbers game we'd have to figure out the total number of DEVELOPERS who have made public statements recently for or against the Wii, but either way please shut the hell up about random people with no real effect on the industry that you happen to personally know and therefore have anecdotes about. 4. Well if that's true then I apologize for that exaggeration and no I don't want you to prove it by posting an even bigger list. As for your point still standing, list-spamming is still not the best way to settle this. For instance, it is our belief that many of the titles that have gone over to the Wii have not been announced at all yet. Also, your list is preferential to the developers that happen to like announcing their stuff really early. Not saying that's necessarily biased but it is a limitation of the list-spam technique. 5. OK then, it's true that the debate has drifted somewhat but I'd disagree that it was intentional by either you or noname2200 -- and you both contributed to the drift. So, as to the original argument: Hmm, you do make a good point. Are you prepared to do that research and show us the results? Because AFAIK you're the one who started all this, so I think it's fair that you have the burden. 6. EA wouldn't have canceled any games that were very far into development -- i.e. the ones we've heard about. It either would have canceled things that were in the early stage of predevelopment or pushed them back due to reduction in talent being devoted to it. You ask for evidence you ought to know does not necessarily exist even if the assertion is correct. How can you fail to understand that EA and other developers have a finite level of resources and if the Wii is getting more then other efforts must be getting less? Are you saying that the NUMBER of games in development is exactly the same but now the 360/PS3 games are going to have skeleton crews on development? I'm sure that will end well. 7. I've stated before one of the problems with lists. Especially if some companies are more prone to announcing games years and years ahead of time *coughKZ2AfrikaFFXIIIcough* and others do not. But since you asked so nicely, I decided to count everything listed in IGN's Wii release list that wasn't published by Nintendo and came up with ~170. Take away about seven games marked as VC and there you go. Compare that with the 360: ~245. So yeah, it's getting about 50% more third-party stuff that's been announced so far. That's very substantial but not what I would call a crushing lead considering that we both know which way the wind is blowing and the list goes out to 2010. In fact, let's take those out -- 2008 only. 163-8 = 155. 245-28 = 217. Now it has 40% more. Still a big lead, but the Wii is already closing the gap! Now yes, a lot of games on both sides are going to be shit, I didn't even ATTEMPT any kind of quality filter. But we can argue all day about what constitutes a "quality" release and that's another problem with listbombing. Perhaps more importantly, however, most publishers don't care if we think their games are shit as long as they sell.

1. I'm not dodging any points, if you read what was said you'd see he was the one who was taking the discussion off track. You'd also see that he was already being condersending to me so that is why i commented on the way he was talking to me, unless you don't count:

"use that time to marshall some good stuff to greet me upon my 'triumphant' return"

"give yourself a cookie"

"i hope that my efforts at education are not in vain"

"Meh. In my opinion, this is a sub-par effort on your part. But do me next! Please please please!"

"When a man deliberately puts on some blinders before venturing out into the world, it's no surprise that he's unable to see the whole picture"

"After all, the truth is right there, just at the corner of your eye, waiting for you to see it.If you can't, then more's the pity. But the rest of us have some damn good first and third party games to play on our Wii, so you'll forgive us if we don't wait up."

2. Again you've completely missed the point. The original discussion was wii's 3rd party support gets critized because it is no where near as good as 360's or ps3's and the wii isn't significantly stealing away the 360's or ps3's 3rd party support. Being able to name a handful of exclusive 3rd party wii games doesn't magically make the wii's 3rd party support as good as the 360's or ps3's, you can go on naming the odd title here and their but until you can provide a list of wii 3rd party games that is as many and as good as the list of 360 and ps3 games then the wii will contiinue to get critized for it's 3rd party support.

3. So to come up with a conclusive answer you'd have to get the opinion of every developer which is an impossible task for you or i to do so like i've said it's just my opinion based on the developers i know and their other developer friends and you can take it or leave it. And why did i even mention this theory? Because the wii is the dominant hardware seller yet it doesn't receive the amount of quality 3rd party games the dominant hardware seller should.

4. Well until all these supposed wii games get annouced, get released and turn out to be quality games then it's just speculation i'm afraid. 

5. In the past 5 weeks this has been the sales trend of the 360 and the wii in terms of 3rd party sales:

5 weeks ago - 1,118,749 wii/1,818,027 xbox360 = 699,278 difference

4 weeks ago -  873,042 wii/1,422,115 xbox360 = 549,073 difference

3 weeks ago -  875,547 wii/1,228,101 xbox360 = 352,554 difference

2 weeks ago -  774,572 wii/1,024,386 xbox360 = 249,814 difference

1 week ago -  935,406 wii/1,017,931 xbox360 = 82,525 difference

Like i said the 360's sales spike greatly on the release of a game and then drop off fairly quickly where as the wii's 3rd party games generally start off slowly have lower ltd's but have greater legs. Just picking the week where the 360 is at the bottom of it's sales spike is not a fair comparision at all when talking about the state of the wii vs 360 3rd party software debate. Just taking the average from those 5 weeks the 360 has out sold the wii by 386,649 weekly and that's nearly a total of 2 million, i wouldn't exactly call that close.

6. I think you've missed what i have said again. The fact is the industry is expanding because the console market is expanding. As each month does by new record sales are recorded and by the end of the generation more consoles will have been sold then last gen. The same amount of people at ea are still making 360 and ps3 games but NEW ea developers are making wii games as well. Ea highers new people in and other people get promoted. The new people they get in will gain experence and will eventually get promoted themselves. If you can't provide proof of ea 360 and ps3 teams and or games being shut down then the 360 and ps3 haven't lost anything.

7. Like i've said before, until these quality wii games materialise then it's just wishful thinking and the current situation of the wii being critized will continue. 

I refuse to yield to your strongest arguments and you refuse to properly rebut mine. I think it's time to shut this down. Thanks for playing and good night.

P.S. Wii sales for that period ~ 4.6m; 360 sales ~ 6.5m. So yes it's a large advantage -- 44%. You're right not to call that particularly close but it's not a crushing victory either. GTA IV vs. Mario Kart will give the launch advantage to GTA but then Wii Fit hits, and bigger legs etc. Also, expect the huge increase in Wii shipments to directly increase Wii sales -- while also bringing down attach rate.

P.P.S. Since I think you may not have understood this properly -- if it's "Wii projects have been getting all the new money while PS360 have not" instead of "PS360 projects are getting canceled", does that mean that a resource shift has not taken place? I submit that the answer is no -- that a shift has occurred. This is just food for thought because I intend for this to be my last post in our exchange.