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Forums - Gaming - Fix a console that underperformed

JRPGfan on 30 December 2024
curl-6 said:

Some consoles, usually for multiple reasons, underperform commercially and sell below expectations.

In this thread, we take a console that underperformed, and suggest changes to its design, marketing, software, etc to make it sell better than it did historically.

What is your pick, and how would you "fix" it?

The Wii U.

The gamepad costing more to make than the actual hardware itself.... its a huge mistake.
Release it with like a normal "pro" nintendo controller, and sell the unit for half the price.
(or better yet, use some of the saved production cost to make it abit stronger..... it launched too late, and was too weak for what it was/cost)

Then rename it to the Wii 2.... slight colour change, make it stand out, against the Wii, so theres no way at all consumers can be confused by anything.

Watch it go on to sell like 80m units instead :P



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Wman1996 on 30 December 2024
haxxiy said:
Conina said:

And give the Xbox 360 two or three years headstart instead of one year? Two years of "HD exclusivity" would have cemented the Xbox hardware base and hurt Sony for many years.

The Xbox 360 shipped less than 3.5 million units during the first three quarters of 2007. It was hardly setting the world on fire before Halo 3 and CoD4; if anything, it looked like it was losing steam ever since its launch.

To think it would have gone the way of the Dreamcast was a perfectly reasonable conclusion by then, especially if Sony comes about with newer and faster hardware, media, and far smaller losses from the more mature Blu-ray tech.

PS2 sold about 55 million or so after PS3 launched in November 2006, which is staggering, It was under 110 million roughly when replaced by PS3. I too think Sony could've milked PS2 as their primary home console for yet another full year. Uncharted would've been a banger launch title.

The biggest issue is Blu-ray. I doubt Microsoft would've ever added a built-in HD DVD player to Xbox 360 even if HD DVD held on longer, but Blu-ray would've been in worse shape without a doubt if PS3 launched a year later. 



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 161 million (was 73 million, then 96 million, then 113 million, then 125 million, then 144 million, then 151 million, then 156 million)

PS5: 122 million (was 105 million, then 115 million) Xbox Series X/S: 38 million (was 60 million, then 67 million, then 57 million. then 48 million. then 40 million)

Switch 2: 120 million (was 116 million)

PS4: 120 mil (was 100 then 130 million, then 122 million) Xbox One: 51 mil (was 50 then 55 mil)

3DS: 75.5 mil (was 73, then 77 million)

"Let go your earthly tether, enter the void, empty and become wind." - Guru Laghima

Pemalite on 30 December 2024
OlfinBedwere said:
Pemalite said:

Xbox One didn't have split memory. It was 8GB DDR3 on a 256bit bus.

It also had that 32MB of faster eSRAM which was intended to act as a fast cache and make up for the slower main memory bus. Which developers promptly stopped using as soon as the One X (which didn't include it and just kicked everything out to its faster main memory) arrived on the scene, explaining why the quality of One (S) ports of third-party games dropped off a cliff from around 2018 onwards.

The eSRAM was a net-benefit, if a developer didn't optimize their games for it, it just acted like a cache for the GPU (For the CPU, it still needed to copy to DRAM first) automagically.
The eSRAM was mapped to a part of the system memory, so it was transparent, so developers could opt to make their stencil buffer, z-targets or more into that part of the memory space, but they didn't have to.

But even if Microsoft had 176GB/s of GDDR5 bandwidth like the Playstation 4, the eSRAM would still have been a big benefit, there is a very big reason why AMD includes upwards of 128MB SRAM in their GPU's -and- CPU's these days.

The issue isn't the eSRAM itself, the issue is that it's not a large overall encompassing cache that can communicate with the CPU and GPU concurrently like what would occur with Intel CPU/IGP's, that's a design choice on AMD/Microsofts part. And a silly one... Having to copy the CPU data to DRAM, then transfer it to eSRAM for the GPU to work on and vice-versa is not efficient, it's wasted cycles.

The real issue that held back the Xbox One was: System Memory, the DDR3 on a 256bit bus wasn't enough, it needed to be on a even wider bus to match GDDR5 or Microsoft needed to adopt GDDR5.

But there also wasn't a point in doing that unless Microsoft made a larger GPU, having only 16 ROPS (Render Output Pipeline) isn't going to make much use of memory bandwidth, it needed 32 ROPS, the Xbox One was ROP starved.
The lower amount of shader pipelines, texture mapping units and more were also a hindrance.

And this is where the crux of the issue is... Microsoft SACRIFICED compute resources for cache, Microsoft should have had a larger GPU, with faster DRAM, but kept the cache.

Large caches have been the reason for some of the largest improvements in performance and efficiency in the PC space over the last few years, it's definitely not a useless "feature".

As for the Xbox One X specifically... Microsoft still had the eSRAM mapped to a part of the system memory. - But if the Xbox One X included eSRAM and made those changes that I alluded to above... There would have been further performance and efficiency gains, the Jaguar cores were trash, more cache would let them breathe a little better, but alas, that was not a design choice Microsoft had in mind when developing the Xbox One platform.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

curl-6 on 30 December 2024
killer7 said:
Jumpin said:

I'll go chronologically.

  1. SNES - Support it with software and marketing for about two to four more years. Let it die naturally like the NES, don't force it. Could have hit 80 million.
  2. Saturn - Cut bells, whistles, and price.
  3. N64 - Use CDs, not cartridges.
  4. Dreamcast - Anti-piracy measures - no platform was hurt as much as this one by piracy. Using Sonic Adventure 1, sales on other consoles, and year 1 Dreamcast games as a reference point, Sonic Adventure 2 sold about 10-20% what it could have without piracy if the console didn't sell any more than it did.
  5. Gamecube - Make a Nintendo console instead of a budget Playstation for kids.
  6. Wii - see the SNES solution + don't kill services.
  7. PS3 - use a cheaper chipset, cut costs. That's what made PSX and PS2 great.
  8. 3DS - Lower price at launch significantly. Perhaps launch a year later after the anti-3D hysteria subsided. Add that 3D TV channel many expected. Launch with a killer app (Animal Crossing could have been that).
  9. Wii U - should have been Wii HD and an extension of the Wii platform. Should have launched with a killer app, Nintendo is usually good at having their finger on the pulse for launch titles/relaunch titles that will be killer apps (SMB, Wii Sports, Breath of the Wild, etc...)
  10. Vita - Needed a killer app, or at least some system sellers - Sony tends to be great at this when it comes to features, but struck out here.
  11. Vita/3DS - I think both suffered because of the sudden boom of mobile gaming which drew most heads for a few years. The iOS App Store took off just before the launch of these two systems, Switch came out when heads realized there was still a place for a dedicated handheld gaming console in their pocket/laptop bag. Not much to be done about that, just bad luck.

3DS was a flop? In wich universe do you live? It clearly outsold its main competition wich was the PSVita (YES its the SAME audience!) and lasted on the market 10 years. I am sure Sony or MS would not be sad to have a handheld system like that. PSVita had the strongest launch lineup of any handheld system ever including even Nintendo handhelds (maybe the Game Boy in 1989 had more/ better games but i am not so sure on this). The fact the 3DS had one of the worst and still won i am gonna leave out here. But Sony should have supported it in more games and patented it so no Smartphone developer would be allowed to ever use it!! I would put more Storage for the Vita game media. 2- 4 GB is a bit low. Put out an exclusive GT, Jak and Daxter, a new Klonoa, Spyro... Make more use of its conectivity feature but with PS4. Keep the idea of using it as a rearview mirror in GT Sports on PS4. Make more games that use that feature comparable to GCN-GBA! Bring Horizon and an exclusive GOW to the handheld. Support it 10 years not 7. It was the same price as the 3DS (250$). Keep it. It was perfect. About SD cards? I don't know. The storage was perfect. It was nowhere near expensive. What killed the Vita was the 3DS. It wouldn't have outsold it but sold a lot better with these tactics. 

This isn't limited to just systems that flopped; systems that sold decently in isolation but underperformed relative to their predecessors or competitors are eligible too, so the likes of 3DS/N64/PS3/etc are fair game.



killer7 on 31 December 2024
curl-6 said:
killer7 said:

3DS was a flop? In wich universe do you live? It clearly outsold its main competition wich was the PSVita (YES its the SAME audience!) and lasted on the market 10 years. I am sure Sony or MS would not be sad to have a handheld system like that. PSVita had the strongest launch lineup of any handheld system ever including even Nintendo handhelds (maybe the Game Boy in 1989 had more/ better games but i am not so sure on this). The fact the 3DS had one of the worst and still won i am gonna leave out here. But Sony should have supported it in more games and patented it so no Smartphone developer would be allowed to ever use it!! I would put more Storage for the Vita game media. 2- 4 GB is a bit low. Put out an exclusive GT, Jak and Daxter, a new Klonoa, Spyro... Make more use of its conectivity feature but with PS4. Keep the idea of using it as a rearview mirror in GT Sports on PS4. Make more games that use that feature comparable to GCN-GBA! Bring Horizon and an exclusive GOW to the handheld. Support it 10 years not 7. It was the same price as the 3DS (250$). Keep it. It was perfect. About SD cards? I don't know. The storage was perfect. It was nowhere near expensive. What killed the Vita was the 3DS. It wouldn't have outsold it but sold a lot better with these tactics. 

This isn't limited to just systems that flopped; systems that sold decently in isolation but underperformed relative to their predecessors or competitors are eligible too, so the likes of 3DS/N64/PS3/etc are fair game.

Ok. Fair point.



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Jumpin on 31 December 2024
killer7 said:
Jumpin said:

I'll go chronologically.

  1. SNES - Support it with software and marketing for about two to four more years. Let it die naturally like the NES, don't force it. Could have hit 80 million.
  2. Saturn - Cut bells, whistles, and price.
  3. N64 - Use CDs, not cartridges.
  4. Dreamcast - Anti-piracy measures - no platform was hurt as much as this one by piracy. Using Sonic Adventure 1, sales on other consoles, and year 1 Dreamcast games as a reference point, Sonic Adventure 2 sold about 10-20% what it could have without piracy if the console didn't sell any more than it did.
  5. Gamecube - Make a Nintendo console instead of a budget Playstation for kids.
  6. Wii - see the SNES solution + don't kill services.
  7. PS3 - use a cheaper chipset, cut costs. That's what made PSX and PS2 great.
  8. 3DS - Lower price at launch significantly. Perhaps launch a year later after the anti-3D hysteria subsided. Add that 3D TV channel many expected. Launch with a killer app (Animal Crossing could have been that).
  9. Wii U - should have been Wii HD and an extension of the Wii platform. Should have launched with a killer app, Nintendo is usually good at having their finger on the pulse for launch titles/relaunch titles that will be killer apps (SMB, Wii Sports, Breath of the Wild, etc...)
  10. Vita - Needed a killer app, or at least some system sellers - Sony tends to be great at this when it comes to features, but struck out here.
  11. Vita/3DS - I think both suffered because of the sudden boom of mobile gaming which drew most heads for a few years. The iOS App Store took off just before the launch of these two systems, Switch came out when heads realized there was still a place for a dedicated handheld gaming console in their pocket/laptop bag. Not much to be done about that, just bad luck.

3DS was a flop? In wich universe do you live? It clearly outsold its main competition wich was the PSVita (YES its the SAME audience!) and lasted on the market 10 years. I am sure Sony or MS would not be sad to have a handheld system like that. PSVita had the strongest launch lineup of any handheld system ever including even Nintendo handhelds (maybe the Game Boy in 1989 had more/ better games but i am not so sure on this). The fact the 3DS had one of the worst and still won i am gonna leave out here. But Sony should have supported it in more games and patented it so no Smartphone developer would be allowed to ever use it!! I would put more Storage for the Vita game media. 2- 4 GB is a bit low. Put out an exclusive GT, Jak and Daxter, a new Klonoa, Spyro... Make more use of its conectivity feature but with PS4. Keep the idea of using it as a rearview mirror in GT Sports on PS4. Make more games that use that feature comparable to GCN-GBA! Bring Horizon and an exclusive GOW to the handheld. Support it 10 years not 7. It was the same price as the 3DS (250$). Keep it. It was perfect. About SD cards? I don't know. The storage was perfect. It was nowhere near expensive. What killed the Vita was the 3DS. It wouldn't have outsold it but sold a lot better with these tactics. 

@Wman1996 The rear touch on the Vita was revolutionary!! Not even todays smartphones have it!! Little Deviants was a smash hit that showed perfectly what the system could do.

I live in a universe where I didn't say the 3DS was a flop. But, likely one where either you were drunk/high when you posted.

When you're sober, re-read my damn post!



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

killer7 on 31 December 2024
Jumpin said:
killer7 said:

3DS was a flop? In wich universe do you live? It clearly outsold its main competition wich was the PSVita (YES its the SAME audience!) and lasted on the market 10 years. I am sure Sony or MS would not be sad to have a handheld system like that. PSVita had the strongest launch lineup of any handheld system ever including even Nintendo handhelds (maybe the Game Boy in 1989 had more/ better games but i am not so sure on this). The fact the 3DS had one of the worst and still won i am gonna leave out here. But Sony should have supported it in more games and patented it so no Smartphone developer would be allowed to ever use it!! I would put more Storage for the Vita game media. 2- 4 GB is a bit low. Put out an exclusive GT, Jak and Daxter, a new Klonoa, Spyro... Make more use of its conectivity feature but with PS4. Keep the idea of using it as a rearview mirror in GT Sports on PS4. Make more games that use that feature comparable to GCN-GBA! Bring Horizon and an exclusive GOW to the handheld. Support it 10 years not 7. It was the same price as the 3DS (250$). Keep it. It was perfect. About SD cards? I don't know. The storage was perfect. It was nowhere near expensive. What killed the Vita was the 3DS. It wouldn't have outsold it but sold a lot better with these tactics. 

@Wman1996 The rear touch on the Vita was revolutionary!! Not even todays smartphones have it!! Little Deviants was a smash hit that showed perfectly what the system could do.

I live in a universe where I didn't say the 3DS was a flop. But, likely one where either you were drunk/high when you posted.

When you're sober, re-read my damn post!

I am sorry if my post sounded offensive. The 3DS was not Nintendo's most sucessfull system but i would not call a system a flop, that lasted 10 years,sold 76 million and outsold its competition 4:1. Of course there where better handhelds. Everyone with some logic agrees over that. 



curl-6 on 31 December 2024

The Gamecube I think could have performed significantly better with a drastic overhaul:

- Don't let Sony get such a huge head start

- Make the console black or silver by default, and make the controller look less like a Fisher Price toy

- Use DVDs, with playback out of the box

- Rework key software to be more appealing to the market; release Twilight Princess in place of Wind Waker, make 3D Mario more like 64/Galaxy, (and make sure it's there at launch) make a non-gimmicky Donkey Kong, etc.



Wman1996 on 01 January 2025
curl-6 said:

The Gamecube I think could have performed significantly better with a drastic overhaul:

- Don't let Sony get such a huge head start

- Make the console black or silver by default, and make the controller look less like a Fisher Price toy

- Use DVDs, with playback out of the box

- Rework key software to be more appealing to the market; release Twilight Princess in place of Wind Waker, make 3D Mario more like 64/Galaxy, (and make sure it's there at launch) make a non-gimmicky Donkey Kong, etc.

The issue is that GameCube hardware was more or less finalized a full year before launch. By that timeline, Nintendo could've bucked orthodoxy and manufactured enough of them to get it out in Japan by late 2000 and other regions in the first half of 2001. 

But the extra issue there is that the games weren't there. GameCube would've been pretty barren in the software department if it launched any earlier than it did in real life. There's no evidence Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, Wave Race, or Rogue Squadron were done before Autumn 2001. And Sakurai and his team seemed to be working down to the wire for Super Smash Bros. Melee's 13 month development cycle. 

Enhanced ports of more N64 games than we actually got would've been possible but tricky. It would've been amazing to get a steady port of Majora's Mask and some other late N64 games. Again, keep in mind that Nintendo rarely does cross-gen games now or even back then. 

Nintendo could've and should've pumped out the resources to get GameCube software and hardware out a full year before it did in real life to beat Xbox to the punch and launch not super long after PS2. But again, hindsight is 20/20. 



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 161 million (was 73 million, then 96 million, then 113 million, then 125 million, then 144 million, then 151 million, then 156 million)

PS5: 122 million (was 105 million, then 115 million) Xbox Series X/S: 38 million (was 60 million, then 67 million, then 57 million. then 48 million. then 40 million)

Switch 2: 120 million (was 116 million)

PS4: 120 mil (was 100 then 130 million, then 122 million) Xbox One: 51 mil (was 50 then 55 mil)

3DS: 75.5 mil (was 73, then 77 million)

"Let go your earthly tether, enter the void, empty and become wind." - Guru Laghima

curl-6 on 01 January 2025
Wman1996 said:
curl-6 said:

The Gamecube I think could have performed significantly better with a drastic overhaul:

- Don't let Sony get such a huge head start

- Make the console black or silver by default, and make the controller look less like a Fisher Price toy

- Use DVDs, with playback out of the box

- Rework key software to be more appealing to the market; release Twilight Princess in place of Wind Waker, make 3D Mario more like 64/Galaxy, (and make sure it's there at launch) make a non-gimmicky Donkey Kong, etc.

The issue is that GameCube hardware was more or less finalized a full year before launch. By that timeline, Nintendo could've bucked orthodoxy and manufactured enough of them to get it out in Japan by late 2000 and other regions in the first half of 2001. 

But the extra issue there is that the games weren't there. GameCube would've been pretty barren in the software department if it launched any earlier than it did in real life. There's no evidence Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, Wave Race, or Rogue Squadron were done before Autumn 2001. And Sakurai and his team seemed to be working down to the wire for Super Smash Bros. Melee's 13 month development cycle. 

Enhanced ports of more N64 games than we actually got would've been possible but tricky. It would've been amazing to get a steady port of Majora's Mask and some other late N64 games. Again, keep in mind that Nintendo rarely does cross-gen games now or even back then. 

Nintendo could've and should've pumped out the resources to get GameCube software and hardware out a full year before it did in real life to beat Xbox to the punch and launch not super long after PS2. But again, hindsight is 20/20. 

As part of "fixing" it I'd make it so Nintendo is better organized on the software front so that their key games are ready on time, as opposed to historically.

Hindsight is indeed 20/20, true, but that's sort of the point of the thread, we are using what we now know to suggest solutions to past problems. I feel like the issues the Gamecube faced could have been recognized and solved at the time and aren't dependent on 2024 knowledge.