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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Do you love or hate Baldaurs Gate 3 type CRPG's and why? (Poll)

 

Best game ...

Pillars of Eternity 2 Deadfire 1 4.00%
 
Divinity Original Sin 2 4 16.00%
 
Path Finder: Wrath of the Righteous 1 4.00%
 
Wasteland 3 0 0%
 
Disco Elysium 2 8.00%
 
Torment: Tides of Numenera 0 0%
 
Baldaurs Gate 3 8 32.00%
 
Dragon Age Inquisition 3 12.00%
 
Other in comments. 6 24.00%
 
Total:25
SvennoJ said:
LegitHyperbole said:

That sucks. Although I think most people should be able to find time for their hobby or do you have many other hobbies? If even you made a hour once a day you'd beat a fairly large game on a month and that's 12 games a year. You need to put away that headset of yours and focus on games you can pick up and get straight into. My current total time gaming this year is 314 hours, beaten 8 or so (big) games and that equates to about one and a half hours per day gaming. I know I do more, probably sank into games that didn't hook me but at about 2 hours a day I make it work. Cut out social media/Youtube/ TV and phone scrolling, you'll find time there I promise, check your usage in the android settings. You'll be surprised. 

It's the second, too many other hobbies in summer :) I rather spend time outside and with the long days eat late, then help my youngest with his projects (wood working lately). By the time I sit down to play it's already after 11 pm.

So if I play something it's half an hour of VR during the summer months, which is mostly some GT7 or Puzzling Places.

I don't have a mobile phone, so no scrolling :) And this site is pretty much the only one left I keep track of daily. Yet between playing a game and reading a book outside, swimming, jogging, biking, games always lose. I'm not the youngest anymore (50), staying up till 3-4 AM to play an RPG is a thing of the past. I have many fond memories of BG1 and 2, Icewind Dale etc. Dragon Age and The Witcher series were the last I sunk my teeth in. And TotK which is designed for bite sized play.

Gaming habits do change over the years which is fine I guess. My kids play the long games now, in party chat, while scrolling on a phone or having a laptop or TV running you tube nearby. I need all my focus on one thing nowadays, hence VR is pretty ideal at this stage of my life. It's just not compatible with hot summer days!



Anyway Dragon Age Origins was a huge favorite of mine and show cased what I love in these type of games. Experiencing the world with different parties (taking even more time!) I played Dragon Age Origins through 4 times when it came out to get all the story and party permutations.

I also sued to do good and evil playthroughs. The focus in the past was discovering all the systems, nowadays my focus is more on experiencing a story. BG3 definitely leans heavily to the first. I tried it on story mode and it was still far too much 'accounting' work. I loved min-maxing in the past, now I rather not have to keep track of different gear sets for a whole party. Today I would go for modes where you only equip the main character and let the others handle themselves. I think Dragon Age did that?

I need to get back into Demeo. While meat for multiplayer, it was actually quite fun to attack solo. That scratches the strategic turn based battle itch. BG3 does a great job of it apart from some targeting issues. However one battle easily lasts half an hour with all the looting and cleaning up included. Maybe I'll fire it back up in winter.

Ah, I just assumed it'd be your first Hobby, It's a second for me too after Guitar and Tin whistle but those are not very time consuming and I feel ya man, I'm barely 35 and I can't even do the midnight releases anymore and expect to be living the next day. Old age hits ya hard 🤣.  

Yeah, some RPGs do that, or at least keep Gear/weapons specific to one character making it clear what goes where and in what slot, Tales of Arise did it perfectly in that way where you pick up gear and you just hit one button to equip the highest gear for a specific character. No fuss at all, no micromanaging. 

Have you tried Cat quest? Or Cat Quest 2? They are delightful little games, fairly, simple and short at about 6 hours but do everything an RPG does on a smaller scale. Really bite sized quests so it'd be purrfect for you. They're free too if you have PS plus essentials. Very fun stuff and quite smartly written quests if a little cheesy. 



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Ouch. My post got deleted before this.
This is re: request for Kingmaker advice (which largely should apply to Wrath of Righteous which just adds on more nuances specific to it´s set of enemies and mythic progression subsystem).

There is a lot of variability in group composition and character builds that works fine. I mean, you can find real experts who decide to play ¨solo¨ with one character (except quests that require certain companions´ presence), getting 4-6x the XP advancement since it´s not split and similarly getting to concentrate loot on one character. That tends to rely on specific builds and tactics which aren´t directly mappable to more conventional playstyle.

I would advise a main character (i.e. your personal custom character in addition to NPC companions) be a melee type (barbarian or maybe champion) as that is where the ¨main course¨ of the game is IMHO, and you can benefit from auto-attack function (as well as flanking) for a less intensive playstyle. Actually having two characters of the same class isn´t really a huge problem, more what you want to consider is the different gear needs of different builds. E.g. trying to a build an all-heavy armor party or an all bow-archer party will run into issues with supplying adequately powerful gear for everybody. Although melee builds usually aren´t very weapon-specific, so can flexibly adapt to the variety of magical melee weapons the game drops as loot. In contrast to a bow-focused character, who can expect to be using bows, bows, and more bows the whole game.

For over-all party, I´ve used main character barbarian (melee), Amiri barbarian(melee), Harrim OR Tristan cleric (former off-melee / debuffer, latter more heals/blaster), Linzi bard (buffer, other spells), Ekun ranger (archery, wolf pet), Octavia wizard (she´s set up to do eldritch trickster, but either dump that or minimize it), and Jubilost alchemist (variable damage type specialist, kind-of caster). That is one more than a full roster, I would probably have either a wizard or alchemist but not both... Honestly, I personally don´t like Alchemist, although it´s not really bad per se, and it can do great in certain missions, so YMMV... I would not recommend using the Magus companion ¨Reggie¨ (hybrid figher-wizard) which feels too micro-managed and with limited resources, IMHO you´re better off with ¨normal¨ melee or with ¨real¨ caster (wizard/cleric/sorceror or even bard). But honestly with a bard and cleric, the rest is flexible. Melee or Archery characters are more ¨sustainable¨ than casters in that they only need HP healing, but you will usually be able to rest as often as you want... Usually.

You will want to think about the different skills and how you cover them via your group, they will be useful for the scripted events (and in fact, what gear you have equipped will also effect non-combat kingdom events based on those stats/skills). Overlap is fine, especially since you probably won´t always have a consistent roster, although note that some events will depend solely on your ¨main¨ character and their stats/skills. More than specific builds, you want to be familiar with the game dynamic (which is distinct from original TTRPG). For example, enemies will largely ¨stick¨ to the first character that they can start attacking... So which character you position to get attacked first (and their resilience and other abilities) is important even before getting into RPG-specific rules mechanics. Part of setting up each character´s ¨action bar¨ is designating their ¨auto-attack¨ activity (which could be casting a spell for some characters), although different characters will be more or less stronger when auto-attacking... I.e. a wizard with crossbow auto-attack has that only as back-up for efficiency sakes, while a barbarian or ranger can just keep attacking their target and that is their DPR role. A major thing is a distinction in the game between standard attack and full attack, with the latter happening only when you don´t move very much... Some abilities will only apply to the latter for example, and archers will tend to full attack much more than melee (since the latter may need to move between different enemies). (or for example, one way to play melee cleric is casting spells until the enemy comes to you, where you can full attack, possibly with buffs from your own spells, and not spend turns on moving + standard attack)

Buffing is big in this game, albeit you don´t need it for every encounter, and certainly you don´t need to go ¨all out¨ for most encounters. A distinction is noted in your own class abilities and ¨consumables¨ like scrolls, wands and potions. Items are generally based on base spell effect, whereas class abilities like spell slots tend to scale with level, albeit HOW they do so is different for different types of spells. Commonly, a consumable will have shorter duration and/or smaller bonus value. But usually two different versions of same spell won´t stack. This impacts how and when you will use these buffs, i.e. how big of a battle you anticipate. Healing is a subset of this dynamic, in that the lowest level Cure Light Wounds wands are typically the most efficient way to heal damage, but if you need to heal damage DURING a fight they don´t heal much for using your entire turn, so higher level versions are for that ¨emergency¨ usage. AC or Armor Class is the typical way to avoid damage from attacks (albeit there is other mechanics like Blur which also work), and there is many bonus types that apply (Armor, Natural Armor, Dodge, Luck, Morale... I can´t remember all honestly). Since each category escalates non-linearly, you want to utilize small bonuses from each category before splurging for the next highest number in a category (and the loot will largely follow this approach). Like consumables, permanent items may have lower bonus than what a spell can achieve, so the latter is more for special apex fights. Items like Resist/Protection vs Energy, Remove Poison/Curse, Remove Blindness, etc will be important sooner or later.

If you want, you can read the rules of the original TTRPG game, although note that they aren´t exactly the same: for example Flanking isn´t so particular about opposite sides of a grid square, you just need to both be threatening the same enemy. www.aonprd.com (although note the TTRPG has entirely new 2nd edition which plays very differently... I wouldn´t really worry about every detail of the 1st edition as the 2nd edition plays much smoother IMHO, but the old rule-set might help understand the under-the-hood mechancs of the CRPG)

I will say that the ¨turn based¨ mode/mod, is kind of a mixed bag, as the core game and AI is not built around it. Personally, despite understanding the core TTRPG very well, I am not hung up on trying to maximally adhere to it, so I play with the ¨real time with pause¨ mode the game was built on. Once you can manage the basic rules well enough, I would highly advise to examine all of the many game settings, particularly to do with the real time with pause. While you can always pause ¨manually¨ at any time, I find it useful to tweak which events (or sub-events) trigger the auto-pause. The difficulty settings are honestly very obscure, and not well explained in the menu. Basically there is one which determines enemy ¨stats¨ which translate to Hit Points and Saving Throws, Attack Bonus, Spell DC etc. Another setting will add arbitrary amount to DCs... including mechanics affected by ¨stats¨, so don´t over-do it by playing hard on both. In fact, you shouldn´t try playing on any hard setting until you understand the game very well. It´s not one of those ¨hard is normal¨ games, so don´t take it personally I personally play on the first ¨harder¨ setting, which supposedly matches TTRPG the closest (although that´s not even a valid comparison), but if you don´t know rules well the easier ones can be better experience. To given an idea, in the first section of game, before you have many magic items, I will often pre-buff even using weak cantrips to just eke out an extra +1 here or there. Once you get more magic items that becomes less needed, but if you don´t understand how to do that, that beginning section would be harder.

It´s been errata´d to be more obvious, but an early mission features enemies which just can´t be damaged by normal weapons, because they are a swarm which weapons can´t adequately target. So, you need area of effect stuff, which the game supplies via Fire Flasks. There are other enemies that are vulnerable vs certain damage types like Fire or Acid, or which even need those damage types to stop their Regeneration. The game will automatically give you info about some enemies, when your characters pass a knowledge check using skills like Nature or Religion... That info appears in the combat log (which realistically you can do only while paused). You can also get the break-down of any roll (attacks, saving throws etc) which can reveal further things about the enemy. Even for regular enemies with nothing special, I think reading the breakdowns is useful for learning the underlying game mechanics.

Finally, there are some combats that are just crazy tough, and not even main plot ones but just random encounters or optional combats. In some ways these are like puzzles, knowing how to neutralize/weaken their threat, while knowing how to most efffectively damage them. I remember one with were-rats in a cave relatively early which I found basically impossible, although later on (the location doesn´t go away) it will be easy. There probably was some trick, but I just decided to skip it until higher level. I would say don´t get hung up those if they aren´t main plot elements that are required. One final tip: Every character getting Blind-Fight by Level 15 or so will be critical in late-game content.  (although it may be relevant earlier, especially vs. enemies that can blind you)

Last edited by mutantsushi - on 24 July 2024

LegitHyperbole said:
Mummelmann said:

CRPGs are probably my favorite genre in all of gaming, ever since the golden 90s with Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment, all their sequels. There was also Neverwinter Nights, which wasn't quite the same, with its more action-oriented focus, but still a fantastic game. BG3 was ace, and I really love the Pathfinder games. I played through Kingmaker alone three times, and finished Wrath of the Righteous. The latter is probably the best CRPG of the past decade for me, along with BG3. I'm really happy that the genre is making a comeback; there's way too much action-RPG drivel with endless animations and effects, button-mashing, and shallow writing.

Edit; Oh, and by the way, I'm an old TTRPG nerd since around 1993, I've played a multitude of TTRPGs in the years since. I'm still playing Pathfinder now and then.

Wrath of the Righteous is soooooo complex. I've started it half a dozen times and the complexity boggles me every time plus the party size is huge. Very overwhelming experience but I'm sure since you're a TTRPGer that it'd seem simple and I'm a fifty casual :). 

It's quite complicated, but Pathfinder 1st Edition is built on D&D 3.5, which I spent over a decade playing, so I know the system very well. It has balance issues though, there are some builds built around synergies of multiclass options and feats that produce insane characters. For instance; my go-to damage dealer is capable of delivering in excess of 140 damage on a single critical hit and has attack rating in the high 60s when fully buffed. I also saw a tank build with 86 AC buffed, the system itself is broken. They changed the whole multiclass system for 2nd Edition though, which makes practically all builds viable and efficient.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition is a lot more streamlined, and focuses heavily on teamwork and party synergies. It's a shame that no PC games are being made yet with the 2nd Edition as a blueprint (there's on Adventure Path being made into a semi-game, but it's hardly a CRPG).



BG 2/POE 1 are the best out of those lot.



Random_Matt said:

BG 2/POE 1 are the best out of those lot.

Nope. I love Diablo, love it but it should not be called a CRPG, it shouldn't even have Roleplaying anywhere near it's description. Those games were built with the sole purpose to strip everything and anything that could be considered to take a modicum of brain power and still slyly fly under the flag of a CRPG, it was literally Diablos design philosophy. They are imitations and have now become they're own genre and should stay in it, isometric hack and slash games. Maybe you could say at best that they have RPG elements or they take inspiration from RPG's. I don't know why I'm getting so heated over this, you've offended me sir. Lol. 



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LegitHyperbole said:
Random_Matt said:

BG 2/POE 1 are the best out of those lot.

Nope. I love Diablo, love it but it should not be called a CRPG, it shouldn't even have Roleplaying anywhere near its description. Those games were built with the sole purpose to strip everything and anything that could be considered to take a modicum of brain power and still slyly fly under the flag of a CRPG, it was literally Diablos design philosophy. They are imitations and have now become their own genre and should stay in it, isometric hack and slash games. Maybe you could say at best that they have RPG elements or they take inspiration from RPG's. I don't know why I'm getting so heated over this, you've offended me sir. Lol. 

Did Matt originally mention Diablo then edited it? I’m only seeing him talking about Baldur’s Gate 3 and Pillars of Eternity lol

Diablo definitely isn’t a CRPG though.

It’s at best an Action RPG. You complete quests, acquire loot to improve your characters abilities, acquire new skills through class specific skill trees that allow you to try out different builds. The games have a big emphasis on exploration, combat, and storytelling. You get to choose your own class, each with its own strengths, weaknesses, and play styles. So the franchise still has a lot of hallmarks of RPGs, but certainly not CRPGs. 


G2ThaUNiT said:
LegitHyperbole said:

Nope. I love Diablo, love it but it should not be called a CRPG, it shouldn't even have Roleplaying anywhere near its description. Those games were built with the sole purpose to strip everything and anything that could be considered to take a modicum of brain power and still slyly fly under the flag of a CRPG, it was literally Diablos design philosophy. They are imitations and have now become their own genre and should stay in it, isometric hack and slash games. Maybe you could say at best that they have RPG elements or they take inspiration from RPG's. I don't know why I'm getting so heated over this, you've offended me sir. Lol. 

Did Matt originally mention Diablo then edited it? I’m only seeing him talking about Baldur’s Gate 3 and Pillars of Eternity lol

Diablo definitely isn’t a CRPG though.

It’s at best an Action RPG. You complete quests, acquire loot to improve your characters abilities, acquire new skills through class specific skill trees that allow you to try out different builds. The games have a big emphasis on exploration, combat, and storytelling. You get to choose your own class, each with its own strengths, weaknesses, and play styles. So the franchise still has a lot of hallmarks of RPGs, but certainly not CRPGs. 

Oh ha. For some reason my brain seen Path of exile and Diablo 2. Lol. 

And exactly, someone gets it. 



Mummelmann said:
LegitHyperbole said:

Wrath of the Righteous is soooooo complex. I've started it half a dozen times and the complexity boggles me every time plus the party size is huge. Very overwhelming experience but I'm sure since you're a TTRPGer that it'd seem simple and I'm a fifty casual :). 

It's quite complicated, but Pathfinder 1st Edition is built on D&D 3.5, which I spent over a decade playing, so I know the system very well. It has balance issues though, there are some builds built around synergies of multiclass options and feats that produce insane characters. For instance; my go-to damage dealer is capable of delivering in excess of 140 damage on a single critical hit and has attack rating in the high 60s when fully buffed. I also saw a tank build with 86 AC buffed, the system itself is broken. They changed the whole multiclass system for 2nd Edition though, which makes practically all builds viable and efficient.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition is a lot more streamlined, and focuses heavily on teamwork and party synergies. It's a shame that no PC games are being made yet with the 2nd Edition as a blueprint (there's on Adventure Path being made into a semi-game, but it's hardly a CRPG).

Ah, the fabled 3e - I always thought of it as being better as a VG RPG system, then actual TTRPG system - and one of the reasons is precisely of those min-maxer shenanigans you described. I think old D&D of players playing their roles, instead of their character sheets, died with release of 3e, to make room for best build optimizers and VG crowd, and that remains til present days, both in D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e.



HoloDust said:
Mummelmann said:

It's quite complicated, but Pathfinder 1st Edition is built on D&D 3.5, which I spent over a decade playing, so I know the system very well. It has balance issues though, there are some builds built around synergies of multiclass options and feats that produce insane characters. For instance; my go-to damage dealer is capable of delivering in excess of 140 damage on a single critical hit and has attack rating in the high 60s when fully buffed. I also saw a tank build with 86 AC buffed, the system itself is broken. They changed the whole multiclass system for 2nd Edition though, which makes practically all builds viable and efficient.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition is a lot more streamlined, and focuses heavily on teamwork and party synergies. It's a shame that no PC games are being made yet with the 2nd Edition as a blueprint (there's on Adventure Path being made into a semi-game, but it's hardly a CRPG).

Ah, the fabled 3e - I always thought of it as being better as a VG RPG system, then actual TTRPG system - and one of the reasons is precisely of those min-maxer shenanigans you described. I think old D&D of players playing their roles, instead of their character sheets, died with release of 3e, to make room for best build optimizers and VG crowd, and that remains til present days, both in D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e.

Agreed, min-maxing is still a thing, but less problematic in Pathfinder 2E. Personally, I find that D&D 5E is too streamlined, and it's prone to to ending up as a demi-god simulator past level 10-12. They probably wanted to retain that epic sense of being a superhuman hero, but that spoils much of the experience for me. From what I understand, TPK practically never happens in 5E, and even single character deaths are rare. P2E manages to keep the sense of peril, without losing the sense of progress and achievement.

One good thing with my particular group of friends when playing 3.5, was that we were all already veterans, more or less. We were also, to a man, concerned with the "RP" part of RPG, and thus avoided min-maxing in favor of strong, personality/background/motivation-driven character builds. To me, the min-maxing occurred more often with new players, looking to bolster themselves for future encounters and wanting to be effective in combat. I suppose to each his own, even the min-maxers enjoy playing, but for different reasons. With my current group, which is a bunch of autistic guys aged 18-22, I find that combat motivates them more than roleplaying, for obvious reasons.



Mummelmann said:
HoloDust said:

Ah, the fabled 3e - I always thought of it as being better as a VG RPG system, then actual TTRPG system - and one of the reasons is precisely of those min-maxer shenanigans you described. I think old D&D of players playing their roles, instead of their character sheets, died with release of 3e, to make room for best build optimizers and VG crowd, and that remains til present days, both in D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e.

Agreed, min-maxing is still a thing, but less problematic in Pathfinder 2E. Personally, I find that D&D 5E is too streamlined, and it's prone to to ending up as a demi-god simulator past level 10-12. They probably wanted to retain that epic sense of being a superhuman hero, but that spoils much of the experience for me. From what I understand, TPK practically never happens in 5E, and even single character deaths are rare. P2E manages to keep the sense of peril, without losing the sense of progress and achievement.

One good thing with my particular group of friends when playing 3.5, was that we were all already veterans, more or less. We were also, to a man, concerned with the "RP" part of RPG, and thus avoided min-maxing in favor of strong, personality/background/motivation-driven character builds. To me, the min-maxing occurred more often with new players, looking to bolster themselves for future encounters and wanting to be effective in combat. I suppose to each his own, even the min-maxers enjoy playing, but for different reasons. With my current group, which is a bunch of autistic guys aged 18-22, I find that combat motivates them more than roleplaying, for obvious reasons.

Oh, TPKs do exist in 5e, especially first few levels can be extremely deadly...but it's nowhere near as lethal as the old editions, or some newer OSR systems. As for Demi-God simulator, yeah, that's pretty much 5e at higher levels, though GM tools to support that kind of play are beyond terrible.

I concur with your assessment of 3e - if you were already familiar with D&D before that and resisted the push to get into min-maxing of 3e, system itself could be used fairly successfully for "proper" character TT roleplaying. But newcomers to hobby often saw character puzzle to be solved for maximum damage output and went for min-max optimizing, going on to play quite different game than what D&D was supposed to be. Personally, I never really bought into 3e much, it felt like WOTC's attempt to make sort of skilled based system, but not fully so, but let's have some, and let's add feats to it as well...and honestly, there was no reason for me to play, from my POV, subpar skill based system, with others doing it much better - so I mostly remained with 2e when it comes to D&D, until I made a mistake and bought into 5e for a while (which on surface looked like continuation of AD&D, but it's really not). I've only read Pathfinder 2e and it looks like much better system than 5e for what it's supposed to do, but it's not the type of game I'd personally run anymore.

My older son has High-functioning autism, and yeah, he is mostly interested in combat part of the game - pretty much all other parts are boring to him - so I absolutely get what you mean. Unfortunately, I tend to run exploration/puzzling/social interaction worlds, in systems that are not geared mainly toward combat, so lately he's been opting out of playing. I suppose I'll have to come up with some parallel, more of a murderhobo campaign for him, if I can get enough players for that type of game. ;)

Anyway, happy dice rolling, your country is in a way spearheading alternatives in TTRPGs via high quality products of Free League Publishing - I tend to really like their stuff, so far I own Forbidden Lands, Pirate Borg and Dragonbane (newest version of Drakar och Demoner), and been eying ALIEN The Role Playing Game - though I have to be honest, that last one is for the great art mostly and maybe more for ALIENS experience, I think for best ALIEN experience, Mothership RPG is probably the way to go.