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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel-Hamas war, Gaza genocide

Further risk of escalation, yet who is behind these bombings. Iran has already made up its mind regardless :/

Iranian president warns Israel will "pay a heavy price" after deadly explosions at memorial ceremony in Iran

Iran's President Ebrahim Raisi blamed Israel for twin explosions that killed more than 100 people during a memorial ceremony in southeastern Iran on Wednesday. "I warn the Zionist regime: Do not doubt that you will pay a heavy price for this crime and the crimes you have committed," Raisi said in a televised speech. Raisi, who is the head of the Iranian government, warned that Israel's punishment will be "regrettable and severe."

The Israeli military told CNN it had "no comment" on the explosions in Iran. No group has claimed responsibility for the blasts which Iran has called a "terror attack."

US State Department spokesperson Matt Miller told reporters Wednesday that the US does not "have any independent information" about the explosions, and that the State Department has “no reason to believe that Israel was involved.”

Some background: The blasts, at least one of which was caused by a bomb, according to Iranian state TV, came on the fourth anniversary of the death of military commander Qasem Soleimani.

The first explosion was 2,300 feet (700 meters) from Soleimani’s grave, and the second was 0.6 miles (1 kilometer) away as pilgrims visited the site, Iranian media said.

Soleimani was killed by a US airstrike ordered by former President Donald Trump at Baghdad International Airport four years ago Wednesday.

 

US national security adviser spoke with Israeli minister about efforts to release hostages, White House says

US national security adviser Jake Sullivan spoke with Israel’s Minister of Strategic Affairs Ron Dermer on Tuesday to discuss Israeli military operations and efforts to secure the release of the remaining hostages, National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby said.

The call comes ahead of US Secretary of State Antony Blinken’s scheduled trip to the Middle East later this week for discussions with Israeli officials on the next phase of the war.  “They discussed ongoing Israeli military operations and ongoing efforts to see if we can secure the release of the remaining hostages," Kirby said.

He added that the "United States remains focused on working with a range of partners to help Israel defend itself to surge humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza, and of course, to defend our national security interests in the region. That most certainly includes protecting the free flow of international commerce in the Red Sea."


Of course, nothing about the ongoing raids in the West Bank or a (temporary) ceasefire. Just there to "defend our national security interests in the region"


UN Security Council members call for an end to Houthi raids

Members of the United Nations Security Council have called on Yemen’s Houthi rebel group to cease their attacks on commercial vessels in the Red Sea. US envoy Chris Lu said that the situation threatens freedom of navigation and has reached an “inflection point” that requires a “global response”, during remarks today.

Freedom of navigation > Freedom of people. So far it's the US that has escalated it to sinking Houthi boats and killing 10. To get the world to act, endanger 'free' trade. A ceasefire in Gaza would also stop these attacks, but it's easier to form a Red Sea Coalition fleet to kill Houthis.

https://maritime-executive.com/article/new-red-sea-security-coalition-includes-10-secret-members



People killed after intense artillery strikes near Khan Younis hospital, humanitarian group says

A number of people are dead after artillery strikes near a hospital in southern Gaza, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), which runs the medical facility. It did not provide the specific number of people killed.

"Intense artillery targeting is increasing in the vicinity of Al-Amal Hospital in Khan Younis, less than 100 meters away from the hospital building, leading to a number of martyrs and wounded," the PRCS said in a post on social media.

On Tuesday, the PRCS reported that five people were killed and three others were injured in strikes near the same hospital in Khan Younis.

CNN has reached out to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for comment twice but has yet to receive a response. 


Does CNN ever get a response? They never mention in their updates...



Lebanon trying to avert escalation

Lebanese government working to convince Hezbollah not to wage war against Israel, foreign minister says

The Lebanese government is working to convince the Hezbollah group not to wage war against Israel, the country's foreign minister said on Wednesday.

Abdallah Bou Habib said Lebanon does "not want any war" and told CNN's Christiane Amanpour that his country wants "peace in our southern borders." His comments come in the wake of the deadly attack that killed senior Hamas leader Saleh Al-Arouri on Tuesday in southern Beirut.

Lebanon believes Israel to be responsible for both Tuesday's attack in Beirut and the deadly explosion that took place during a memorial ceremony in Iran on Wednesday, Bou Habib said, expressing his fear that the Middle East is now "really approaching a regional war." "We don't want what's happening in the south to be spread to over Lebanon. We don't like a regional war because it's dangerous to everybody. Dangerous to Lebanon, dangerous to Israel and to the countries surrounding Israel," he said.

Israel has not claimed responsibility for either of the attacks in Beirut or Iran, though a US official later told CNN that Israel carried out the strike in Lebanon. But, State Department spokesperson Matt Miller also said the US has "no reason to believe" Israel was involved in the blasts in Iran.



A glimmer of hope

Water has been restored to some parts of central Gaza, municipality says



Water has been restored to parts of central Gaza, according to the municipality of Deir al Balah.

It said that in conjunction with the Palestinian Water Authority and other municipalities, it had been able to repair the Makrut water line. The line, which is a critical source of clean water for many neighborhoods in central Gaza, had been out of service for several days. The lack of water pumping had resulted “in the overflow of sewage in the streets,” the municipality said.

The Makrut line is one of several that have been used to supply Gaza with water from Israel. UN agencies and NGOs have warned that the lack of clean water in many areas of Gaza risks spreading skin diseases and other illnesses such as diarrhea.




Water alone is not enough though

‘Time is running out’ to save children in Gaza from malnutrition, says UNICEF head

Many children already face severe acute malnutrition in Gaza. As the threat of famine intensifies, hundreds of thousands more young children could soon be severely malnourished, with some at risk of death. We cannot allow that to happen.


 



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ICJ confirms details of public hearings on ‘provisional measures’

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has confirmed that it will hold public hearings on January 11 and 12, in proceedings instituted by South Africa against Israel on December 29, 2023. The hearings to be held at the ICJ’s court in the Peace Palace in The Hague will be dedicated to South Africa’s request for “provisional measures”, the ICJ said in a press release.

South Africa requested the “provisional measures” in order to:

  • “Protect against further, severe and irreparable harm to the rights of
    the Palestinian people under the Genocide Convention.”
  • “Ensure Israel’s compliance with its obligations under the Genocide Convention not to engage in genocide, and to prevent and to punish genocide.”

South Africa will make its oral argument on Thursday, January 11 from 10am to 12 noon (09:00-11:00 GMT).

Israel, which has promised to fight South Africa’s accusation, will then make its oral argument on Friday, January 12 from 10am to 12 noon (09:00-11:00 GMT).



SvennoJ said:
LurkerJ said:

From your link:

"We found that “murder”, “murderous”, “mass murder”, “brutal murder” and “merciless murder” were used a total of 52 times by journalists to refer to Israelis’ deaths but never in relation to Palestinian deaths. The same pattern could been seen in relation to “massacre”, “brutal massacre” and “horrific massacre” (35 times for Israeli deaths, not once for Palestinian deaths); “atrocity”, “horrific atrocity” and “appalling atrocity” (22 times for Israeli deaths, once for Palestinian deaths); and “slaughter” (five times for Israeli deaths, not once for Palestinian deaths)."

A mix of tribalism and horrible media coverage have successfully manipulated the public for decade. Don't underestimate tribalism, I assure you if Trump had any hands in this the coverage would be different, just remember the outcry that resulted from the assassination of Qasem Soleimani lol

Thankfully, Tiktoc and Twitter have ensured Israel and its genocidal supporters from both parties have lost this conflict, and it will be forever remembered as the most avoidable mass murder that we watched happen in front of our eyes, all while we're being asked to be mad at the only war criminal like Putin but not Netanyahu and the people who arm him unconditionally, what a joke. 

I copied your reply here from https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/247202/us-politics-ot/56/#7

Western media has ignored this conflict for decades and always painted 'the oppressed' as the trouble makers. Every attempt at a solution has only led to Israel taking more land from Palestinians. If it weren't for cell phones, social media and brave grass roots journalism, we might never know the extent of what's going on. Censuring the internet so far has luckily failed. Despite disinformation, blocking/removing accounts, mass removal of posts by social media platforms, the truth still comes out.

Yup, and Israel is not going to take this lightly and I am sure they'll take every measure to make this kind of reputational damage a non-starter. I have never understood those who cheer for censorship in the name of protecting the public from misinformation, we must not create tools and laws that will only be used at a large scale to hide the truth, we must ensure conflicts like this have a chance of being covered by journalists on twitter, substack etc. 

There are historical lessons to be had here on different issues, despite the tragedies that continue to unfold, Palestinians' only consolation is the truth is out, Just read the original post again, the BBC report is a disgrace, and we shouldn't go back to a time where only them can report on wars like this one.

I am also glad war crimes against them have led to genocide Biden support to dwindle among the voters. I am glad the nickname and the word "genocide" is taking hold regardless of its accuracy, what a shame the American left doesn't have a single candidate to challenge him. I also hope in the future, our politicians haemorrhage support and gets a bad rep for tragedies they’re directly or indirectly responsible for, why the hell is Tony Blair still a liberals darling is beyond me, and it’s unfortunate how under reported the massacres in Yemen are. I truly hope this changes. 

Watch Biden’s spokesman getting upset over the term genocide but has nothing meaningful to say about the fact that they're arming murderous maniac and sending them money unconditionally: 

No body is double checking if what's happening in Russia is a genocide or not, no body is double checking if Putin is a war criminal or not. By every metric the USA is using to judge these issues, ultra-far right Netanyahu and his party shouldn't be an exception. 

Here is another take on the matter and how accurate the definition may apply. 

Last edited by LurkerJ - on 04 January 2024

LurkerJ said:
SvennoJ said:

I copied your reply here from https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/247202/us-politics-ot/56/#7

Western media has ignored this conflict for decades and always painted 'the oppressed' as the trouble makers. Every attempt at a solution has only led to Israel taking more land from Palestinians. If it weren't for cell phones, social media and brave grass roots journalism, we might never know the extent of what's going on. Censuring the internet so far has luckily failed. Despite disinformation, blocking/removing accounts, mass removal of posts by social media platforms, the truth still comes out.

Yup, and Israel is not going to take this lightly and I am sure they'll take every measure to make this kind of reputational damage a non-starter. I have never understood those who cheer for censorship in the name of protecting the public from misinformation, we must not create tools and laws that will only be used at a large scale to hide the truth, we must ensure conflicts like this have a chance of being covered by journalists on twitter, substack etc. 

There are historical lessons to be had here on different issues, despite the tragedies that continue to unfold, Palestinians' only consolation is the truth is out, Just read the original post again, the BBC report is a disgrace, and we shouldn't go back to a time where only them can report on wars like this one.

I am also glad war crimes against them have led to genocide Biden support to dwindle among the voters. I am glad the nickname and the word "genocide" is taking hold regardless of its accuracy, what a shame the American left doesn't have a single candidate to challenge him. I also hope in the future, our politicians haemorrhage support and gets a bad rep for tragedies they’re directly or indirectly responsible for, why the hell is Tony Blair still a liberals darling is beyond me, and it’s unfortunate how under reported the massacres in Yemen are. I truly hope this changes. 

Watch Biden’s spokesman getting upset over the term genocide but has nothing meaningful to say about the fact that they're arming murderous maniac and sending them money unconditionally: 

No body is double checking if what's happening in Russia is a genocide or not, no body is double checking if Putin is a war criminal or not. By every metric the USA is using to judge these issues, ultra-far right Netanyahu and his party shouldn't be an exception. 

Here is another take on the matter and how accurate the definition may apply. 

Plenty of countries support Russia. Its just interests and the west has an interest in keeping things the way they are. Since the fall of Israël means there would be another vassal Iran state. Also isn't the West itself a master of genocide. The shit we pulled in Afghanistan was nothing short of it.

War is war and war without genocide is impossible. Israël is not going to stop and since the west has to many interests in the region they will not stop supporting Israel. They might make a public statement renouncing it, but the next fleet of weapons is most likely on its way.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

Unfortunately, this conflict is based on the clashing of religious paradigms, and it will never be solved peacefully unless one party is wiped out completely. At this point, it is all but impossible to make ultimate justifications for either party for any meaningful resolution. Too much has happened and for too long. Generations of people have been locked in, and the reasons don't even really matter to them anymore.
However, consider this. There are some 50 Islamic countries in the world, should the Jewish people not be allowed to have even one? And why is it that even Palestine's Muslim neighbors are not willing to take Palestinians in in this dire situation? Seems weird, unless there is a very good reason.



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SvennoJ said:
Zkuq said:

I have very much to criticize Israel about, but genocide is not among my critique. Yes, there are terrible atrocities against the Palestinians by Israel, but nothing I've seen - although admittedly, I haven't followed the situation all that closely - even hints at a genocide. I expect other definitions to roughly match Wikipedia's description, but in short, here's what Wikipedia has to say about genocide: "Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part." I'm not seeing any of that at play here (on a systematic level). And again, I'm not trying to defend the atrocities commited by Israel by any means, but genocide doesn't seem like the correct term to me (at least at the moment - not saying genocide couldn't come into play at some point).

The court can decide but many experts have already weighed in

https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/

Scholars add, however, that many social scientists define genocide in a broader way. “[The current legal definition] identifies a very narrow set of categories of victims: ethnic, racial, national, religious, but it doesn't take into account people being targeted because of their socioeconomic status, or their political identity, or whatnot,” Verdeja says.

Hinton adds that the more colloquial definition for genocide focuses on the idea of “large scale destruction and acts perpetrated against a population.” Many may point to the Holocaust as the best example of this, though genocide, based on this broader definition, has happened many times over since, in places like Rwanda and Guatemala.


https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/israel-clearly-committing-three-of-five-acts-defined-as-genocide-palestinian-american-lawyer/3073787

She said Israel’s actions fit the legal definition of genocide under the Rome Statute and also the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, also known as the Genocide Convention.

“Genocide requires intent and action. Not only have there been over 100 statements of genocidal intent expressed at the highest levels of Israeli military and government since Oct. 7, but they are also clearly committing three of the five genocidal acts under the international treaties,” said Elborno.

The convention defines genocide as five acts “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,” according to the United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect.

As Elborno explained, Israel is guilty of three of the five acts: “Killing members of the group,” “Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group,” and “Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.”

“This is not my opinion. This is the opinion of over 800 genocide scholars, 47 state crime scholars and numerous scholars of genocide who have come out in this moment and said that Israel is committing genocide. Not only that, but the annihilation phase of genocide,” she said.

My definition of genocide is intent to wipe a people from the face of the earth. What you've presented is a broader definition of genocide than the one that resides in my head.  By these broader criteria was Hamas somehow not committing genocide on the 7th of October?  If I am not mistaken isn't Israel surrounded by peoples that have genocidal intent for the Jewish people and their state (the type of genocide that even fits my old school definition of genocide)? 

Edit - I FEEL as if the definition of Genocide is being stretched here to push an agenda just like the current definition of Racism, Nazi, Communist, ect has been stretched to serve various agendas. They use the shock value of the words to attempt, often successfully, to elicit an emotional response not a logical one.

Last edited by The_Yoda - on 04 January 2024

Dante9 said:

Unfortunately, this conflict is based on the clashing of religious paradigms, and it will never be solved peacefully unless one party is wiped out completely. At this point, it is all but impossible to make ultimate justifications for either party for any meaningful resolution. Too much has happened and for too long. Generations of people have been locked in, and the reasons don't even really matter to them anymore.
However, consider this. There are some 50 Islamic countries in the world, should the Jewish people not be allowed to have even one? And why is it that even Palestine's Muslim neighbors are not willing to take Palestinians in in this dire situation? Seems weird, unless there is a very good reason.

Bolded: And this is why we need a 2-state solution like, 4 decades ago.

Seriously, they should have started implementing this right after the Yom Kippur war, not after Israel started sending settlers to the west bank.

Italic: apart from Egypt, those countries have a rather small population and none of them have any significant infrastructure in place to take in migrants. They take in what they can, but there's simply too many of them for all those countries:

For instance, Jordan has just over 11 million inhabitants, out of which over 2.4 millions are Palestinian refugees. That's already almost one in four inhabitants.

Syria is still in a state of civil war - even though it's a frozen stalemate right now with no fighting - with masses of internally displaced people, there is simply no space for any additional refugees from other countries.

Most people living in south Lebanon are already Palestinians or of Palestinian origin, hence why the Hezbollah is headquartered and so strong there. The country pretty much went bankrupt in 2019 and covid, the Beirut port explosion (where most of it's good got shipped in and out of the country), the Russian invasion of Ukraine (Lebanon got most of it's grains and food from Ukraine) and US sanktions against the Hezbollah not helping matters for any meaningful recovery. In short, they are in no state to take in any refugees right now.

Finally, Egypt has an acute lack of drinking water already and is thus unwilling to take more in than they can supply water for. Also, Egypt may look large, but most is just desert and the vast majority of the population is living along the nile with a population density close to the one in Gaza already, so there's not exactly much space for more refugees, especially since they took in half a million Syrian and Sudanese refugees already.



Dante9 said:

Unfortunately, this conflict is based on the clashing of religious paradigms, and it will never be solved peacefully unless one party is wiped out completely. At this point, it is all but impossible to make ultimate justifications for either party for any meaningful resolution. Too much has happened and for too long. Generations of people have been locked in, and the reasons don't even really matter to them anymore.
However, consider this. There are some 50 Islamic countries in the world, should the Jewish people not be allowed to have even one? And why is it that even Palestine's Muslim neighbors are not willing to take Palestinians in in this dire situation? Seems weird, unless there is a very good reason.

What are you suggesting? 5.3 million Palestinians pack up and leave from Gaza and the West Bank? That's about the same population as Slovakia, Finland or Norway. Should Europe take them in as Smotrich suggests? And living together does work, 20% of the Isreali population are Arabs. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel That's the maximum percentage Israel allows, hence the apartheid regime to prevent that percentage getting bigger.

The reasons very much matter. The ongoing oppression, apartheid and religious Settler movement is what keeps driving this conflict. Every time borders are set, Israel pushes them further back. The USA has allowed the radicalization of the Israeli government. Many Jewish people rather live in peace and want to see an end to the oppression and apartheid as well.

There are 167 Democratic countries in the world, Israel is just one of them. Can't Jews pick another place to live... 7.2 million Jews in Israel vs combined some 8 million Arab Muslims in Israel, West Bank and Gaza combined. Why are Palestinians not allowed to have a place to live? Why should Muslims not be allowed to visit their holy place (Al Aqsa) in East Jerusalem?


There's clearly a one sided push to ethnically cleanse the indigenous population from the lands of Israel and Palestine in the name of Neo-Zionism.

Why would neighboring countries take in 8 million people. People who have their own culture and thousand years of history (which is systematically being destroyed in Gaza atm) Why doesn't Europe take in all the Ukrainians, let Russia have Ukraine, problem solved? Europe has 50 countries, can't Russia just have 'their' land back? (Ukraine was part of Russia from the late 1700s to 1991) Seems weird European neighbors don't just want to take in the Ukrainians and get this war over with...

Why doesn't the USA take in the 7.2 million Jews from Israel, problem also solved right? There are about 7.6 million Jews in the USA, seems like a good party? With only 3.4 million Muslims in the USA, welcoming Jews in the USA seems like a better fit than moving the Palestinians to Europe as Smotrich suggests...

Nah, nobody is leaving. Would you if someone comes along and says, my religion wants me to live in your house / on your land? And if you live in the US or Canada, Australia, the indigenous population has a far more recent claim on 'your' property than Zionists.

There is plenty room for people to live together in the region. But it will only work without oppression and equal rights for everyone. Yes there will still be radical elements, just like there are in any other country. Yet most of the world has 'solved' these conflicts and learned to live together. Northern Ireland for example.

What is needed is for people to talk to each other. Language is a big barrier. Jews need to be taught Arabic in school, Palestinians need to be taught Hebrew in school. As well as each other's history. Without understanding there can be no peace and it will always remain 'us and them'. I live in a bilingual country, it's not a problem. We're not going to war with the French and while Quebec has its separatist movement, most people want to stick together. (It came close though in 1995) Things would be very different though if Ontario was playing land grab with Quebec, carve up Quebec in controlled regions, dehumanize French Canadians, build a wall around Quebec to control what goes in and out including the people, and not give French speaking Canadians the same rights. Ehh France can take them back cause French people are all the same?

Palestinians have their own identity, their own history, they have a right to self government and a place to live. The UN has made that clear many times. There is one side that's not listening and chooses to live in perpetual fear, lashing out, unwilling to let go of the past. A traumatized population dealing with the trauma of the holocaust in ways that will never heal the wounds. And in the process creating another whole population with similar wounds since 1948.

Talk and live instead of Might is right.



Qwark said:

Plenty of countries support Russia. Its just interests and the west has an interest in keeping things the way they are. Since the fall of Israël means there would be another vassal Iran state. Also isn't the West itself a master of genocide. The shit we pulled in Afghanistan was nothing short of it.

War is war and war without genocide is impossible. Israël is not going to stop and since the west has to many interests in the region they will not stop supporting Israel. They might make a public statement renouncing it, but the next fleet of weapons is most likely on its way.

And the question becomes; what do we need these allies for? What do we get in return of supporting genocides and cheer for the deaths of million civilians across the region? 

The fact is, these horrible allies have been bitch slapping Biden at every turn. Belkin goes there to get humiliated by every body. MBS atrocities in Yemen were allowed in the name of "but they're our ally, but the necessary evil, but we need their oil", blah blah blah. Russia hits and what do these ally do to save us from inflation and spiking prices? Cut oil, invite Russia to OPEC (now OPEC+) and flatten our economic growth and push countries like Germany into recession. They side with China, Russia as well as Iran. Amazing. 

What does Biden get from supporting Netanyahu? nothing, unless a higher possibly of defeat in the elections is a plus. 

The hawkish right doesn't care about what happens as a result of war and the apologetic left keeps pretending there is an "end game" and a good reason we don't just let what happens, but also a good reason to support it. Please. 



When I hear about this war I always think of the song the "times are changing" by bob dylan in my head.



BiON!@