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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel-Hamas war, Gaza genocide

As the saying goes, one country freedom fighter is another country terrorist. The situation is how far will both sides go. The only thing I do know as long as this continue its course, there will be no peace because there will be way to much blood spilled.



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Glad to see it's own thread now, will be easier to follow.

It is crazy how history repeats itself time and time again. Oppression creates terrorists. Hamas have gone from peaceful and charitable beginnings in the 70s to political then terrorists that we see today.

So what is the solution? Instead of take out the terrorists, the world decides take out everyone in Gaza. Those kids that do survive will end up resenting Isreal and will become the next iteration of a Hamas in 20-30 years time and all this shit will happen again.

The world needs to do better and step in and finally get this region stabilised with peace talks and agree on who get's what land. However I don't see that happening as look at Ukraine, nothing really been done to end the war but rather help maintain status quo.




 

 

numberwang said:

Reminder that the US and Israel have a shared government

What does having individuals that share the jewish faith in government have to do with anything?  I'm a USA citizen that is part Irish part German, if someone went to war in Ireland tomorrow I wouldn't have any kind of emotional attachment to Ireland.  I would view what is going on in the war, and come to my on conclusions given the facts.  Anthony Blinken was born in New York, he is an American, Janet Yellen was born in New York she is an American.



rapsuperstar31 said:

What does having individuals that share the jewish faith in government have to do with anything?  I'm a USA citizen that is part Irish part German, if someone went to war in Ireland tomorrow I wouldn't have any kind of emotional attachment to Ireland.  I would view what is going on in the war, and come to my on conclusions given the facts.  Anthony Blinken was born in New York, he is an American, Janet Yellen was born in New York she is an American.

When your people have been displaced for centuries and massacred and you finally get a homeland, you kind of feel a connection to it and your own people.

Plus culturally they are raised to care for other Jews and be community focused. If one is having bad times in the community, the community help them out. Once they are out of trouble they are expected to give back and help others when they need help. 

The west as good as our live are, we have become every individualistic oriented, which isn't a good thing in my eyes as we learn not to give a shit about others. 



 

 

I have very much to criticize Israel about, but genocide is not among my critique. Yes, there are terrible atrocities against the Palestinians by Israel, but nothing I've seen - although admittedly, I haven't followed the situation all that closely - even hints at a genocide. I expect other definitions to roughly match Wikipedia's description, but in short, here's what Wikipedia has to say about genocide: "Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part." I'm not seeing any of that at play here (on a systematic level). And again, I'm not trying to defend the atrocities commited by Israel by any means, but genocide doesn't seem like the correct term to me (at least at the moment - not saying genocide couldn't come into play at some point).



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TheLegendaryBigBoss said:

Unfortunately most (if not all) Western countries fully support Israel regardless of what they do (I 100% condemn Hamas attack).

Nelson Mandela - "But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians"

Full support as long as they keep the Palestinians there, either dead or starving.


Some of the right wing government want the Palestinians to leave, either into the Sinai Desert (Egypt opposes of course) or to Europe

https://www.barrons.com/news/eu-s-borrell-condemns-israeli-ministers-call-for-palestinian-emigration-from-gaza-abbf7a1b

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/02/us-condemns-israeli-ultranationalist-smotrich-ben-gvir-gaza

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, an ultranationalist, said in recent days that Israel should take steps to encourage immigration of the majority of the more than 2 million Palestinians in Gaza to Europe.



Kinda poetic in a sick twisted way. Europe encouraged the traumatized Jewish population to move to the Middle East with the Zionist movement. Ultra nationalists in Israel now want to return the 'favor'...


A 2 state solution is going to be harder to realize than ever now, but there is no other way. Time for the politicians to put their big boy pants on and stop throwing tantrums that only lead to more deaths and cyclic violence. The male ego will bring the end of civilization.

There are no winners in war, only losers. Yet sometimes it's the lesser of 2 evils, Ukraine has no choice. Did the world leave Hamas a choice. The horrific attacks on October 7th have no excuse, terrible terrorist attack through and through. Yet the more you oppress, dehumanize and try to control people, the more violent the response eventually gets.

Peaceful protests have only led to the many handicapped in Gaza:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab252000

'42 Knees in One Day': Israeli Snipers Open Up About Shooting Gaza Protesters

Over 200 Palestinians were killed and nearly 8,000 were injured during almost two years of weekly protests at the Israel-Gaza border. Israeli army snipers tell their stories



Zkuq said:

I have very much to criticize Israel about, but genocide is not among my critique. Yes, there are terrible atrocities against the Palestinians by Israel, but nothing I've seen - although admittedly, I haven't followed the situation all that closely - even hints at a genocide. I expect other definitions to roughly match Wikipedia's description, but in short, here's what Wikipedia has to say about genocide: "Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part." I'm not seeing any of that at play here (on a systematic level). And again, I'm not trying to defend the atrocities commited by Israel by any means, but genocide doesn't seem like the correct term to me (at least at the moment - not saying genocide couldn't come into play at some point).

The court can decide but many experts have already weighed in

https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/

Scholars add, however, that many social scientists define genocide in a broader way. “[The current legal definition] identifies a very narrow set of categories of victims: ethnic, racial, national, religious, but it doesn't take into account people being targeted because of their socioeconomic status, or their political identity, or whatnot,” Verdeja says.

Hinton adds that the more colloquial definition for genocide focuses on the idea of “large scale destruction and acts perpetrated against a population.” Many may point to the Holocaust as the best example of this, though genocide, based on this broader definition, has happened many times over since, in places like Rwanda and Guatemala.


https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/israel-clearly-committing-three-of-five-acts-defined-as-genocide-palestinian-american-lawyer/3073787

She said Israel’s actions fit the legal definition of genocide under the Rome Statute and also the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, also known as the Genocide Convention.

“Genocide requires intent and action. Not only have there been over 100 statements of genocidal intent expressed at the highest levels of Israeli military and government since Oct. 7, but they are also clearly committing three of the five genocidal acts under the international treaties,” said Elborno.

The convention defines genocide as five acts “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,” according to the United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect.

As Elborno explained, Israel is guilty of three of the five acts: “Killing members of the group,” “Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group,” and “Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.”

“This is not my opinion. This is the opinion of over 800 genocide scholars, 47 state crime scholars and numerous scholars of genocide who have come out in this moment and said that Israel is committing genocide. Not only that, but the annihilation phase of genocide,” she said.



*No.

Last edited by Bandorr - on 03 January 2024

SvennoJ said:
Zkuq said:

I have very much to criticize Israel about, but genocide is not among my critique. Yes, there are terrible atrocities against the Palestinians by Israel, but nothing I've seen - although admittedly, I haven't followed the situation all that closely - even hints at a genocide. I expect other definitions to roughly match Wikipedia's description, but in short, here's what Wikipedia has to say about genocide: "Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part." I'm not seeing any of that at play here (on a systematic level). And again, I'm not trying to defend the atrocities commited by Israel by any means, but genocide doesn't seem like the correct term to me (at least at the moment - not saying genocide couldn't come into play at some point).

The court can decide but many experts have already weighed in

https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/

Scholars add, however, that many social scientists define genocide in a broader way. “[The current legal definition] identifies a very narrow set of categories of victims: ethnic, racial, national, religious, but it doesn't take into account people being targeted because of their socioeconomic status, or their political identity, or whatnot,” Verdeja says.

Hinton adds that the more colloquial definition for genocide focuses on the idea of “large scale destruction and acts perpetrated against a population.” Many may point to the Holocaust as the best example of this, though genocide, based on this broader definition, has happened many times over since, in places like Rwanda and Guatemala.


https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/israel-clearly-committing-three-of-five-acts-defined-as-genocide-palestinian-american-lawyer/3073787

She said Israel’s actions fit the legal definition of genocide under the Rome Statute and also the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, also known as the Genocide Convention.

“Genocide requires intent and action. Not only have there been over 100 statements of genocidal intent expressed at the highest levels of Israeli military and government since Oct. 7, but they are also clearly committing three of the five genocidal acts under the international treaties,” said Elborno.

The convention defines genocide as five acts “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,” according to the United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect.

As Elborno explained, Israel is guilty of three of the five acts: “Killing members of the group,” “Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group,” and “Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.”

“This is not my opinion. This is the opinion of over 800 genocide scholars, 47 state crime scholars and numerous scholars of genocide who have come out in this moment and said that Israel is committing genocide. Not only that, but the annihilation phase of genocide,” she said.

My conclusion from the first link is that it's debatable, but it could be genocide. The second link provides a more clear conclusion, but it seems to be from a Turkish site, and it's heavily based on the statements of a Palestinian-American lawyer. My understanding is that media is more or less state-controlled in Turkey, and Turkey has very clearly picked a side in the conflict, and the risk of bias of the cited lawyer should be fairly obvious from her background. I don't think the second link seems at all trustworthy. Hence my impression is that it could be considered a genocide, but it would probably require an expanded definition of genocide. I'm personally quite hesitant to modify definitions of existing terms because it seems like it would be prone to twisting the truth, and hence at this point I would personally still argue against calling this a genocide. That said, it seems to be debatable, so I'm not sure I have much to add here.



numberwang said:

Reminder that the US and Israel have a shared government