Netanyahu's methods of getting rid of hamas, is only going to lead to a stronger angrier hamas, or a new group born out of the destruction. The cycle will never end it seems. How doesn't the world or the people of israel see that?..
As a writer and basically a rep here I've shut myself out from the politics side of this site (and likely still won't check it much), but I can't help but wonder what y'all think of the recent so-called "antisemitism" bill passing the house in the US in response to the protests (and occasional brawls). I'm actually more on the pro-Israel side (not so much with the governments but moreso when it comes to the protestors involved - and more I'm non-interventionist as a whole so somewhat neutral if anything), but I find this a scary slippery slope to say the least, as a huge advocate of the 1st Amendment. Thankfully it'll likely be shot down by either the senate or SCOTUS for being unconstitutional..
"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden
| DarthMetalliCube said: As a writer and basically a rep here I've shut myself out from the politics side of this site (and likely still won't check it much), but I can't help but wonder what y'all think of the recent so-called "antisemitism" bill passing the house in the US in response to the protests (and occasional brawls). I'm actually more on the pro-Israel side (not so much with the governments but moreso when it comes to the protestors involved - and more I'm non-interventionist as a whole so somewhat neutral if anything), but I find this a scary slippery slope to say the least, as a huge advocate of the 1st Amendment. Thankfully it'll likely be shot down by either the senate or SCOTUS for being unconstitutional.. |
I'm pretty much in your camp, I think. Since this apparently needs to be said anymore, I feel that the October 7th terrorist massacre and mass rape rampage was a bad thing that shouldn't have happened and find it astonishing that one actually has to say that because it's a contested opinion. And yes, I actually do think that that merited a serious military response. And no, I don't think walling off the Gaza Strip was an irrational response to the election and seizure of power there by a known anti-Semitic terrorist organization. I'm boring that way. Likewise, I can figure out and sympathize with the mindset that goes along with being outnumbered 30 to 1 by mostly hostile Arabs and Muslims in the region. It's definitely Jewish people that are much closer to extinction than Arabs, Muslims, or ethnic Palestinians for that matter. There are literally still fewer Jews in the world today than before the Holocaust. They still haven't recovered from that in population terms and, owing to lower birth rates, are shrinking as a population share both in the region and even within Israeli territorial borders.
None of that justifies the wildly disproportionate military response that we've seen. They've made their point, gotten their revenge, all that sort of thing many times over now. It's time to give it a rest! Seriously, the human cost of defeating Hamas is much too high and there is no serious plan for what happens after that. What happens after that sounds to me like what happened to us in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're making the same mistakes that we did after 9/11 and there seems to be no stopping the current regime in that regard. Well that is judgment they will have to live with. For a very, very long time to come. Netanyahu may think this war is nearly over, mission accomplished, but it's only just begun. My only hope lies in the fact that polls show the Israelis overwhelmingly want a new election some time this year and that someone other than Netanyahu is (finally!) widely expected to win in such a vote. In the meanwhile, I'm with the "Bring Them Home Now!" protesters ideologically. The path out of this mess is a negotiated resolution to the conflict that exchanges the surviving hostages for a withdrawal of the remaining Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip. That probably won't happen, but I agree with those who think that it should.
As to the matter of the protests, like you, I'm in favor of free speech. Not a big fan of the jihadist and pro-genocide slogans and chants that I'm hearing or the speeches defending "the heroic actions of October the 7th", people proclaiming their loyalty to Hamas and Islamic Jihad and such. Those are not anti-war demonstrators. They are something else that I have much less respect for. It feels like the actual anti-war protesters are in the minority of what we're seeing here on American college campuses and I only hope that I'm wrong about that. At the same time though, I believe that people have a right to say repugnant things that I disagree with and think a better resolution than calling in the cops would be for more college administrators to consider options like holding votes on divestment from arms suppliers anyway, as some have agreed to do. As to the bill you're referencing, I can't disagree with its proposed definition of anti-Semitism, but like I said, I think people have a right to say repugnant things that I disagree with. I'm as worried about it actually becoming law though as I am about the new TikTok ban being enforced; i.e. I'm really not. It won't happen. (Next step for the TikTok ban is the Supreme Court on free speech grounds and TikTok will win.)
That's sort of my take in a nutshell.
Last edited by Jaicee - on 03 May 2024
Jaicee said:
It's all good. Like I said, I'm not Jewish myself; it's just something I notice. I know you mean well and I commend your intestinal fortitude in being willing to deep dive into the gruesome details of war day in and day out to provide the community here with the most up-to-date information. As I've shared before, my dad never really recovered mentally from the Vietnam War. The damage is much more than what happens to you physically, on the surface level, and it can last for the rest of your life. I've been living with PTSD of my own for most of my life and have to admit that though I try to face the things that trigger reactions, I still have limits. One thing I know for sure is that the populations of Israel and Palestine writ large are currently living in a traumatized state. They're acting like it. What they're doing is...anything to feel safe. The truth though is that many if not most of these people will never feel safe again; the people of Gaza especially. A growing chorus of people just want it to end though and those are the people, honestly, who give me hope. |
I know about the damage. My grandmother was Indonesian and got taken by the Japanese in the WW2. She lost her first child from starvation in a Japanese concentration camp. After the war she fled to The Netherlands with my grandfather. (Who was Dutch and basically part of the occupation of Indonesia by the Netherlands) My other grandfather got taken by the Germans and spend WW2 in a German labor camp.
Both never spoke of the experience, this is all the information I got of what happened to them. My grandmother never recovered. She had 4 more kids but the trauma led to strife within the family leading my mother and her sister declaring each other dead (not talking). My grandfather turned into quite a racist, lot of bottled up hatred which often subtly and not so subtly was directed at my mother (who was born in Indonesia before they moved)
My mother ended up working with war refugees, one of whom tried to commit suicide by train. I unknowingly cycled right past him while police were trying to back up the train he was stuck under. (Lost his legs)
Yes the trauma will last generations.
Israel has been playing on fear as well. Hence the rise of the ultra right government. While there is some truth in that some people in surrounding countries want Israel gone (still refugees from 1948 living in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria) Israel exaggerates the danger they're in, as well as dehumanizes their 'enemies' to keep support.
One thing has become more clear during this war. There are definitely militant groups attacking Israel, yet no other country has formally declared or joined the war. Iran has been very reluctant and only did one major attack when they could not ignore the bombing of their consulate in Damascus killing 16 people people including 8 officers. Still they gave Israel and its allies 2 weeks to prepare and turned it into a big show with slow moving drones, gave notice beforehand and managed to do material damage only on the intended military target.
Then wen Israel retaliated again anyway, Iran downplayed the attack, not interested in further escalation.
Most people in the ME are tired of war, they want lasting peace. Israel seems to be the outlier, keeps stoking the fires with threats, assassinations and ongoing occupation and treatment of Palestinians.
It will take a long time to heal and random attacks with still happen for quite some time. Yet there are examples of how to get out of this mess, see the end of the IRA. Not by force, by talking, negotiating, calming tensions and eventually they laid down there arms. Yet that can only happen when you stop treating the other side like animals.
When you put your safety in the hand of extremists, you're never going to be safe. When will people ever learn this.
| Jaicee said: As to the matter of the protests, like you, I'm in favor of free speech. Not a big fan of the jihadist and pro-genocide slogans and chants that I'm hearing or the speeches defending "the heroic actions of October the 7th", people proclaiming their loyalty to Hamas and Islamic Jihad and such. Those are not anti-war demonstrators. They are something else that I have much less respect for It feels like the actual anti-war protesters are in the minority of what we're seeing here on American college campuses and I only hope that I'm wrong about that. At the same time though, I believe that people have a right to say repugnant things that I disagree with and think a better resolution than calling in the cops would be for more college administrators to consider options like holding votes on divestment from arms suppliers anyway, as some have agreed to do. As to the bill you're referencing, I can't disagree with its proposed definition of anti-Semitism, but like I said, I think people have a right to say repugnant things that I disagree with. I'm as worried about it actually becoming law though as I am about the new TikTok ban being enforced; i.e. I'm really not. It won't happen. (Next step for the TikTok ban is the Supreme Court on free speech grounds and TikTok will win.) That's sort of my take on the actual war in a nutshell. |
That's not the impression I'm getting from the student protests. But I mostly follow them on social media and foreign media. Yes there are trouble makers but they are far in the minority and some even debunked as paid shills to infiltrate the demonstrations to make them look bad.
The actual anti-war demonstrators are the vast majority. Yet these are not professional protesters and easily undermined. They have been vilified in the US media from the start. Well from when the focus got on them at Colombia university. There were smaller demonstrations at campuses long before that, which were mostly ignored.
Anyway there's tons of footage of peaceful demonstrators, Jewish and Muslim students sitting together, eating together, talking to each other. It gets messy when the police shows up in force and that's when the media turns on their cameras. The western media has an agenda and are more like propaganda channels than actual news coverage nowadays.
And while Biden praises the first amendment at the correspondence dinner, we get an anti-semitism bill that includes criticism of Israel.
| KratosLives said: Netanyahu's methods of getting rid of hamas, is only going to lead to a stronger angrier hamas, or a new group born out of the destruction. The cycle will never end it seems. How doesn't the world or the people of israel see that?.. |
The leaders seem fine with perpetual conflict. The problem is there is no will to end the ongoing conflict by those that have the power to end it. The endless cycle makes some people very rich while keeping the people divided and under control by using fear as a weapon.
Yet how do you make the general population see that and make better choices at the voting booth. In the USA you don't even have a better choice available, it's between bad and catastrophic. Israel still has multiple parties and the people have options to vote for more moderate parties that actually want an end to the conflict. However politicians have used the holocaust trauma for so long while dehumanizing Arabs all around them so that the majority is genuinely scared for their survival and flocks to ultra right wing politicians for protection.
Hamas was born from previous conflict after the first Intifada (uprising) as a rival faction to Fatah in the PLO. Netanyahu actually supported Hamas at first to undermine the PLO and keep Gaza and the West Bank divided. Palestinians in Gaza voted for Hamas just as Israelis have voted for extremists to keep them safe.
So yes, without intervention, the cycle will continue. New groups will rise up using people's fear and lust for revenge to continue the cycle.
Trump as always only seeking escalation
Trump – ‘We’re not letting the radical left morons take over’
Former US President Donald Trump has denounced “the radical left morons” conducting antiwar protests at US university campuses.
He also thanked police officers who forcefully cracked down on the pro-Palestine protesters at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) and Columbia University in New York this week.
Palestinian journalists win UNESCO world press freedom prize for Gaza coverage
Gaza’s journalists have been named the winners of the 2024 UNESCO/Guillermo Cano World Press Freedom Prize for their coverage of Israel’s war on the Palestinian territory, the UN’s cultural agency said in a statement.
Established in 1997, the annual prize “honours an outstanding contribution to the defence and/or promotion of press freedom anywhere in the world, especially when this has been achieved in the face of danger”, UNESCO said.
“In these times of darkness and hopelessness, we wish to share a strong message of solidarity and recognition to those Palestinian journalists who are covering this crisis in such dramatic circumstances,” said Mauricio Weibel, chair of the international jury of media professionals, who recommended the winners of the prize.
The Committee to Protect Journalists said on May 1 that, according to preliminary investigations, at least 97 journalists and media workers are among the more than 35,000 killed since the war on Gaza began on October 7.
The dead included 92 Palestinian, two Israeli, and three Lebanese journalists.
Currently Online Palestinian journalists covering Gaza awarded the 2024 @UNESCO / Guillermo Cano World #PressFreedom Prize.https://t.co/9Zt7qge6yo #WorldPressFreedomDay pic.twitter.com/4liqPSdXtJ
— UNESCO 🏛️ #Education #Sciences #Culture 🇺🇳 (@UNESCO) May 2, 2024
And Biden didn't even mention Gaza's journalists in his annual correspondents dinner.
World Press Freedom Day: Gaza conflict deadliest for journalists
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/3/what-is-the-state-of-press-freedom-in-the-world-today
Every year on May 3, UNESCO commemorates World Press Freedom Day.
It is being marked today at a particularly perilous time for journalists globally, with Israel’s war on Gaza becoming the deadliest conflict for journalists and media workers. “When we lose a journalist, we lose our eyes and ears to the outside world. We lose a voice for the voiceless,” Volker Turk, UN high commissioner for human rights said in a statement today.
“World Press Freedom Day was established to celebrate the value of truth and to protect the people who work courageously to uncover it.”
More than 100 journalists and media workers, the vast majority Palestinian, have been killed in the first seven months of war in Gaza, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) and the International Federation of Journalists (IFJ).
Israeli forces have detained 53 Palestinian journalists: Palestinian Prisoner’s Society
In a statement marking World Press Freedom Day, the Palestinian Prisoner’s Society has issued a reminder that 53 Palestinian journalists are currently detained by Israeli forces.
Forty-three of the journalists were detained following October 7, the group said, including four who have been deemed “forcibly disappeared” because Israel has provided no information about their status or whereabouts.
“The targeting of Palestinian journalists has been and remains one of the most prominent policies pursued by the occupation throughout its history,” said the Prisoner’s Society.
Leaked details of ceasefire proposal hints at compromises to end war in Gaza: Report
The Associated Press (AP) news agency reports that leaked details on truce proposal talks between Israel and Hamas hints at compromises on both sides to end the war on Gaza.
According to the AP, the initial stage of the deal would last for 40 days. During this period, Hamas would start by releasing female civilian captives in exchange for Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.
After this first release, Israeli forces would withdraw from a coastal road in Gaza and head inland to facilitate the entry of humanitarian aid to the starved Palestinian territory.
During this period, displaced Palestinian civilians would be able to return to their homes in the northern Gaza Strip. Hamas would also provide a list of captives who are still alive during that time.
Within a period of three weeks, both sides would start indirect negotiations that aim to restore a permanent calm in Gaza, the AP reports. Three weeks into this first phase, Israeli troops would withdraw from central Gaza.
The second six-week phase would seek to finalise arrangements for a permanent calm in Gaza, and the release of all remaining captives, both civilians and military, in exchange for more Palestinian prisoners released from Israeli jails.
Israeli military captives held in Gaza would not be released before the start of the calm in the war-torn territory.
The third and final stage, according to AP, would include the release of the remains of deceased captives and more Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, and the start of a five-year reconstruction plan for the territory.
This has pretty much been the proposed deal for months, already proposed in December if I remember correctly.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/12/29/israel-hamas-war-egypt-proposes-three-step-ceasefire-plan_6385088_4.html
Yep, end of December Hamas already came up with the staged ceasefire plan to come to a end of the war. US and Israel have been dragging it on.
Smotrich: Hamas’s demand to end the war is a ploy
Israel agreeing to end the war in Gaza in exchange for captives held by Hamas would damage the “security of Israel’s citizens”, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says.
The demand would be a defensive alliance between the United States and Hamas, under which the former will give “all the murderers, slaughterers and rapists in fact full impunity and prevent Israel from destroying it”, wrote Smotrich on X.
“Any Israeli leader who agrees to this, by signing or turning a blind eye, will be forever remembered for knowingly neglecting the security of Israel’s citizens,” Smotrich said, urging an operation in Rafah “now and immediately, with full force”.
Israel confirms death of captive held in Gaza
Israel confirmed that an Israeli man held captive in Gaza has died. Dror Or, 49, had been held in Gaza since October 7, the government said.
His wife, Yonat, was killed in the initial attack on southern Israel and two of the couple’s children – Alma, 13, and Noam, 17 – were released from Gaza during a ceasefire between Israeli forces and Hamas fighters in November.
The Israeli government did not say how it learned of the death of Or, but added that his body remains in Gaza.
Israel estimates that 129 captives remain in Gaza, the French news agency AFP reports, and the Israeli military says a further 35 captives, including Or, have died in the Palestinian territory where Israeli attacks have killed at least 34,596 people.
Trinidad and Tobago recognises the State of Palestine
The government of Trinidad and Tobago has announced that it is officially recognising the State of Palestine, a move it said would help to achieve a “lasting peace”.
A news release from the Caribbean country’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs said the move strengthened the “growing international consensus on the issue of Palestinian statehood”.
“Recognition of Palestine is moral and just and demonstrates Trinidad and Tobago’s acknowledgement of and support for the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian People,” the statement said.
European Union Foreign Policy Chief Josep Borrell said on Monday that several EU countries are set to recognise Palestine as an independent state by the end of May. The countries are yet to be confirmed but are believed to include Ireland, Spain, Belgium, Malta and Slovenia.
In April, the US vetoed a UN resolution that would have paved the way for full membership for Palestine, saying statehood must be achieved through direct negotiations between Israel and Palestine.
Palestinians welcome Trinidad and Tobago’s state recognition
The Palestinian Foreign Ministry has welcomed the decision taken by Trinidad and Tobago to recognise the state of Palestine. The ministry said in a statement that the step is consistent with international law, adding that it will contribute to international efforts towards ending the Israeli occupation.
It came after the government of Trinidad and Tobago said its move would help to achieve a “lasting peace”.
A news release from the Caribbean country’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs also said the recognition strengthened the “growing international consensus on the issue of Palestinian statehood”.
Such a revealing picture
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