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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - How will be Switch 2 performance wise?

 

Which console will be close in performance?

XB1 13 8.78%
 
PS4 49 33.11%
 
PS4 pro 47 31.76%
 
XB1X 8 5.41%
 
XBox Series S 24 16.22%
 
PS5 3 2.03%
 
XBox Series X 4 2.70%
 
Total:148
LegitHyperbole said:
JRPGfan said:

HDR on a handheld? that should be left for docked/tv mode only atleast.
You dont need the brightness of a thusand suns,.... when your playing on a handheld, and worried about battery life.

I can't see why HDR contrast would be a bad thing for a handheld aside from the battery issues but luminosity doesn't need to be the focus, HDR is so much more than that. I suppose as long as they have an OLED screen, that'll do the same job.  

Better and wider colour gamut, and contrast, is a good thing..... the upsides of HDR.
The higher brightness (in areas) can allow for much more lifelike and believable scenes.

However its slightly more demanding on the gpu (HDR tonemapping), and on the screen (monitor/tv) it usually uses more power than a screen without.
*edit:  They keep makeing advances in technology.... a few years ago, there was a bigger differnce between HDR use and not for powerconsumption, than today.


Even Oled vs LED.... at the same brightness levels, consume more power.
However the visual upgrade haveing richer darks, has might be worth that trade off.

I just think, the switch and switch 2, being as limited as they are, HDR (at the very least in handheld mode) is a waste.
The same way I would say Raytraceing on the Switch, in handheld mode, would be stupid as well.... its got a 15watt target it needs to fit into.... and raytraceing is too demanding to be spending limited wattage budget on it.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 26 May 2024

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Pemalite said:
Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

I have a feeling that DF🤡 will actively compare the Switch 2 and Series S to the PS5 and PC, not the Switch 2 and Series S.
They will want to avoid as much as possible any opportunity to make Xbox look bad.

Digital Foundry is one of the least bias outlets out there.

Chrkeller said:

I already amended my statement in my first response, lol.  

You really don't bother reading what people post, do you?

If you cared to read, I acknowledged that.

Chrkeller said:

You can quote whatever you want.  All I said is Nintendo has to draw a price point line somewhere because of their audience, which is true.  

Correct. They do.
And going from 12GB of Ram to 16GB of Ram is an irrelevant issue in regards to price, because it's only a few dollars, but the benefits are huge.

Chrkeller said:

Also I find it hard to believe M2 doesn't run hotter than 100 mb/s SD.  Perhaps one of us is spinning a narrative.....  

I never claimed that an M.2 drive runs hotter or cooler than a SD card running at 100MB/s, but like I alluded to prior, M.2 drives are not drives you throw into your pocket because they are naked PCB's prone to things like static, bending and other forces.

Heat isn't the issue like you originally claimed however.

And "slots" themselves can be passively cooled anyway, which M.2 drives are often happy with.

Chrkeller said:

Also YOU don't have a clue on costing either.  None of this is even confirmed nor do we know what profit margin Nintendo is targeting. 😆 

I never claimed I had an idea on costings outside of the Ram example I outlined earlier.
I literally agreed with you multiple times that we have no idea on actual costs as the hardware has not been released.

But like I argued prior, it also doesn't matter.

I am a consumer... And as a consumer we should ALWAYS demand more and better hardware from these multi-billion dollar companies, to argue otherwise is anti-consumer.


sc94597 said:

Sort of tangential to this thread, but I am thinking there is a good chance the next generation of consoles (PS6/next Xbox) will be ARM-based rather than x86, given the huge gains we're seeing with Apple Silicon and now the Qualcomm laptop chips in terms of performance/power unit.

Apple is exclusive to Apple.

Qualcomm however is another story... The issue there though isn't the CPU capability, but the GPU capability, AMD in the mid-range is still in another league in terms of capability.
In saying that... AMD is adopting ARM and rolling out chips based on it, which could be a lucrative option for the next Xbox or Playstation.
https://siliconangle.com/2023/10/23/nvidia-amd-reportedly-developing-arm-based-pc-processors/

But x86 isn't being dropped, far from it. Zen5 and Zen6 are coming which should bring with it tangible improvements to performance per watt.

sc94597 said:

I also think we're only scratching the surface of Deep Learning enhanced graphics with current DLSS.

I would argue Unreal Engines TSR offers the better option currently.

XESS has made massive gains... And FSR is still... Well. FSR.
But these technologies are still in their infancy relatively, give them a few more years and it will look even more interesting.

sc94597 said:

Even if they stay with AMD/x86, current AMD APU's have NPU's built-in. Right now NPU's are behind in raw performance (but ahead GPU's in terms of power efficiency) but I think that could be very different four to five years from now. They might be competitive in the mid-tier (competing with RTX XX50/XX60) space.

The idea is to roll it into the pipelines, AMD is already setting itself up with that by going VLIW2 in a ways, again.
Keep in mind that GPU's have already had low-precision floating point and integer support for over a decade at this point, so technically all GPU's can be "A.I" chips.

sc94597 said:

Would be interesting to see how Nvidia and Nintendo navigate this given that Nvidia has an interest in keeping anything more than light Deep-Learning workloads centered on their GPU's rather than NPU's, unless they enter the NPU market themselves. 

The other option is to include a small, discreet NPU engine on a graphics chip that doesn't require firing up the rest of the GPU to activate, but still have the real A.I hardware baked into the pipelines.

I would rather not go down that path as I don't like the idea of an NPU engine eating into silicon space that could be used for more Ray Tracing or Shader cores, but it's one way to get a handle on the power side of the equation.

sc94597 said:

But yeah, I think the 10th Generation will be a much larger leap than the 9th mostly because I think Deep Learning aided graphics will balloon in scope and applications.  

It's a good idea to watch the PC space as that is where the innovation is occurring on this front, with A.I being the hot buzz word, Intel and AMD rolling out A.I capabilities in their CPU's, we are in for an interesting few years.

And honestly, I don't think it's going to fizzle out like with the 3D fad, it's being baked into hardware and software at every level.

Chrkeller said:

Wouldn't a move to ARM kill backwards compatibility?  Especially with PS Now and Game Pass?

I wholly agree tools and AI are going to explode in the next 5 years.  Unreal 5 demos show there is still a ton to be had with visuals.  

Potentially yes.

However in Microsoft's case, they have kept everything fairly high-level so the hardware is less relevant, they can use binary translation for compatibility... Which will come at the cost of power and performance, but the improved hardware should make up that difference.

I mean we have had Intel Atom x86 tablets running Android and were able to run ARM compiled software just fine before.

Conina said:

You have 30 TB data on your Xbox hard drives?

My 1 TB SSD is almost full, but I could uninstall a lot which I prefer to play on PC.
My 5 TB HDD for legacy stuff (Xbox 360 and Xbox One games) is only 70% full.

Give or take. Yes.

I have OG Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One and Xbox Series titles all on the one device, well over 2,000 titles.

Same issue I have on PC and Playstation 5 though, but the Playstation 5 to a lesser extent as I don't have it loaded with PS1, PS2 and PS3 titles.

My Switch Library is probably the smallest, but I still need a larger SD Card, 2tb SD Cards aren't common yet, hopefully they enter the market before Nintendo Switches it's online services off.

Soundwave said:

Most people don't even have all their games downloaded nowadays, it will fill up all the storage on a PS5/XB quickly too, I just delete games I haven't played in a while.

That said, using a 1TB SD Card for "cold storage" and even backing up other games you've downloaded onto a PC (so if you do get the urge to play them again you can just transfer to the SD Card rather than spending an hour+ downloading) works fine too.

You want main storage that is fast and large enough to hold any single game plus a little overhead at minimum, Switch 2 will have that.

I have everything installed and updated, I don't like wasting my time installing/updating games.

Don't ever use an SD card for cold storage, it uses NAND which is prone to bit-flipping and thus can lose it's data.

Not sure what you mean by "demand."  Personally I've come to terms with Nintendo.

The N64 wasn't optical.

The GC used mini disks.

The Wii wasn't even HD.

The Wii U had a sad amount of ram.

The Switch had 32 gb storage and the dock was a glorified hdmi cable.  

The PSP and Vita easily outclassed the DS and 3DS.

Cutting edge hasn't been Nintendo's game since the SNES.  It isn't who Nintendo is.

Which works for them, because they have best in class software, especially now that everyone else is putting their games on other platforms.

But I get your point.  Based on rumors/leaks, the Deck 2 and Ally 2 will outclass the S2 with ease..  but neither of them will have Nintendo S2 1st party games.

It is what it is.  I will be happy with 12 gb and 256 gb.  To be honest I was guessing more like 8 gb and potentially 128 gb.  



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

While a game like this works at 30fps any game that has timing involved 60fps would feel and look much better imo.



JRPGfan said:

I just think, the switch and switch 2, being as limited as they are, HDR (at the very least in handheld mode) is a waste.

I don't think it is a waste. You can save much more energy by slightly reducing some other settings with less visual impact.

Or give the users the choice to switch HDR off for 5 - 15% more battery life.



If Nintendo and Nvidia are going to use 4nm, it would be wise for them to adopt Lovelace as is rather than go through the trouble and port the Samsung Ampere to tsmc.

Last edited by Oneeee-Chan!!! - on 26 May 2024

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JRPGfan said:
LegitHyperbole said:

I can't see why HDR contrast would be a bad thing for a handheld aside from the battery issues but luminosity doesn't need to be the focus, HDR is so much more than that. I suppose as long as they have an OLED screen, that'll do the same job.  

Better and wider colour gamut, and contrast, is a good thing..... the upsides of HDR.
The higher brightness (in areas) can allow for much more lifelike and believable scenes.

However its slightly more demanding on the gpu (HDR tonemapping), and on the screen (monitor/tv) it usually uses more power than a screen without.
*edit:  They keep makeing advances in technology.... a few years ago, there was a bigger differnce between HDR use and not for powerconsumption, than today.


Even Oled vs LED.... at the same brightness levels, consume more power.
However the visual upgrade haveing richer darks, has might be worth that trade off.

I just think, the switch and switch 2, being as limited as they are, HDR (at the very least in handheld mode) is a waste.
The same way I would say Raytraceing on the Switch, in handheld mode, would be stupid as well.... its got a 15watt target it needs to fit into.... and raytraceing is too demanding to be spending limited wattage budget on it.

I never realised it took more graphics power. Maybe they can personalise the screen to look similar like some TV's that have that fake HDR dynamic preset, have to assume they'll use OLED also. 



Conina said:
LegitHyperbole said:

I can't see why HDR contrast would be a bad thing for a handheld aside from the battery issues but luminosity doesn't need to be the focus, HDR is so much more than that. I suppose as long as they have an OLED screen, that'll do the same job.  

I tested the animated main menu of Ori 2 on my Steam Deck OLED with various settings.

HDR off, (1280x800, 60 fps/Hz, graphics: high, no dynamic resolution):

  • minimal display brightness: 11.9 watts (looks better than HDR on with minimal brightness)
  • half display brightness: 12.1 watts
  • full display brightness: 12.4 watts (up to 600 nits)

HDR on, (1280x800, 60 fps/Hz, graphics: high, no dynamic resolution):

  • minimal display brightness: 12.5 watts
  • half display brightness: 12.7 watts (looks much better than HDR off with full brightness)
  • full display brightness: 13.3 watts (up to 1000 nits)

HDR off, (1280x800, 90 fps/Hz, graphics: high, no dynamic resolution):

  • minimal display brightness: 17.5 watts (looks better than HDR on with minimal brightness)
  • half display brightness: 17.7 watts
  • full display brightness: 18.0 watts (up to 600 nits)

HDR on, (1280x800, 90 fps/Hz, graphics: high, no dynamic resolution):

  • minimal display brightness: 20.1 watts
  • half display brightness: 20.3 watts (looks much better than HDR off with full brightness)
  • full display brightness: 20.8 watts (up to 1000 nits)

HDR off, (1280x800, 45 fps / 90 Hz, graphics: high, no dynamic resolution):

  • minimal display brightness: 10.0 watts (looks better than HDR on with minimal brightness)
  • half display brightness:  10.1 watts
  • full display brightness: 10.5 watts (up to 600 nits)

HDR on, (1280x800, 45 fps / 90 Hz, graphics: high, no dynamic resolution):

  • minimal display brightness: 10.5 watts
  • half display brightness: 10.7 watts (looks much better than HDR off with full brightness)
  • full display brightness: 11.2 watts (up to 1000 nits)

So in the 10 - 13 watts tests, HDR only adds 0.5 - 0.9 watts, depending on the display brightness.
In the results of 17 watts and above, HDR adds 2.6 - 2.8 watts... that probably includes the higher fan speed for cooling.

Interesting. Well they definitely won't be using HDR then.



Soundwave said:

Then you just re-download the game if your SD Card has an issue, it's not that big of a deal. You should be able to keep your save files on the main storage.

Downloading a Terabytes worth of data is not a 5 minute job.

Soundwave said:

You should be able to keep your save files on the main storage.

Or via Cloud... If it wasn't hidden behind a pay wall.

Soundwave said:

I've used SD Cards with the Switch and even prior to that for years and have never had a problem.

Anecdotal evidence is only evidence for anecdotes.
In short... Your argument here is completely irrelevant.

The electrical charge stored in NAND's cells discharge over time. This is a blatant fact, we are beholden to the laws of Physics, your anecdote cannot erase this fundamental fact.

Factors that accelerate the issue are: How often it's used/recharged, current wear rate, temperature it's stored at, silicon quality, geometry transistor size and more.

There is a reason -why- data centers don't use NAND Flash to store data for archival purposes, it's extremely unreliable... Anyone who argues otherwise literally has no idea.

It's also the reason why consoles like the WiiU will brick themselves if you don't use them.
https://www.techpowerup.com/305736/long-term-nintendo-wii-u-owners-experiencing-bricked-systems

Soundwave said:

This isn't just an issue for Switch 2, for PS5/XBox most people are already not keeping all their games actually downloaded all at once on their internal storage. 

Playstation 5 and Xbox Series has the option of augmenting their storage with non-NAND options.

Soundwave said:

It's simply the reality of an industry that's going all digital, you keep the games you play most on board, delete stuff you don't play as much in the moment, if you want to revisit those games you can always put it on cold storage or back up or redownload it. 

I was a PC gamer living in the digital-only world years before consoles went digital.

It's convenient having a wide-array of titles installed and updated and ready to play.

Again... I don't have the time nor care factor to install and update a title because I feel like playing it on a whim, that crap can take hours... I've literally turned my console off and jumped on my PC because of that inconvenience.

Soundwave said:

The important thing for Switch 2 is the main storage is large enough to handle any single kind of game, that way the publisher can port to the system and be assured a player if they really want to can play the digital only version of the game without needing an add-on SD Card or whatever. 

No. It's important to hold multiple large games. Not singular.

It's a portable device first and foremost, cellular data tends to be relatively expensive compared to other options, you aren't going to uninstall a 100GB+ game and download another 100GB+ game to play on the bus.

Not an issue if you can have both installed.

Chrkeller said:

But I get your point.  Based on rumors/leaks, the Deck 2 and Ally 2 will outclass the S2 with ease..  but neither of them will have Nintendo S2 1st party games.

You haven't been paying attention then. PC has been getting Switch exclusives... And sometimes even before release date on Switch.
Legalities are a little bit meh, but they are available.. And run and look better.

LegitHyperbole said:

I never realised it took more graphics power. Maybe they can personalise the screen to look similar like some TV's that have that fake HDR dynamic preset, have to assume they'll use OLED also. 

It does. It's why Microsoft increased the clockrates on the Xbox One S over the base Xbox One.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

If Nintendo and Nvidia are going to use 4nm, it would be wise for them to adopt Lovelace as is rather than go through the trouble and port the Samsung Ampere to tsmc.

Honestly, I am okay with Ampere, it's capable with the features like Ray Tracing.
I just want more Ram to let the current hypothetical ampere-based GPU breathe.

And going Ampere would certainly be a cost-cutting measure as it's not the latest and greatest nVidia has to offer, so Nintendo likely got a good deal on the SoC's.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Soundwave said:

Then you just re-download the game if your SD Card has an issue, it's not that big of a deal. You should be able to keep your save files on the main storage.

Downloading a Terabytes worth of data is not a 5 minute job.

Soundwave said:

You should be able to keep your save files on the main storage.

Or via Cloud... If it wasn't hidden behind a pay wall.

Soundwave said:

I've used SD Cards with the Switch and even prior to that for years and have never had a problem.

Anecdotal evidence is only evidence for anecdotes.
In short... Your argument here is completely irrelevant.

The electrical charge stored in NAND's cells discharge over time. This is a blatant fact, we are beholden to the laws of Physics, your anecdote cannot erase this fundamental fact.

Factors that accelerate the issue are: How often it's used/recharged, current wear rate, temperature it's stored at, silicon quality, geometry transistor size and more.

There is a reason -why- data centers don't use NAND Flash to store data for archival purposes, it's extremely unreliable... Anyone who argues otherwise literally has no idea.

It's also the reason why consoles like the WiiU will brick themselves if you don't use them.
https://www.techpowerup.com/305736/long-term-nintendo-wii-u-owners-experiencing-bricked-systems

Soundwave said:

This isn't just an issue for Switch 2, for PS5/XBox most people are already not keeping all their games actually downloaded all at once on their internal storage. 

Playstation 5 and Xbox Series has the option of augmenting their storage with non-NAND options.

Soundwave said:

It's simply the reality of an industry that's going all digital, you keep the games you play most on board, delete stuff you don't play as much in the moment, if you want to revisit those games you can always put it on cold storage or back up or redownload it. 

I was a PC gamer living in the digital-only world years before consoles went digital.

It's convenient having a wide-array of titles installed and updated and ready to play.

Again... I don't have the time nor care factor to install and update a title because I feel like playing it on a whim, that crap can take hours... I've literally turned my console off and jumped on my PC because of that inconvenience.

Soundwave said:

The important thing for Switch 2 is the main storage is large enough to handle any single kind of game, that way the publisher can port to the system and be assured a player if they really want to can play the digital only version of the game without needing an add-on SD Card or whatever. 

No. It's important to hold multiple large games. Not singular.

It's a portable device first and foremost, cellular data tends to be relatively expensive compared to other options, you aren't going to uninstall a 100GB+ game and download another 100GB+ game to play on the bus.

Not an issue if you can have both installed.

Chrkeller said:

But I get your point.  Based on rumors/leaks, the Deck 2 and Ally 2 will outclass the S2 with ease..  but neither of them will have Nintendo S2 1st party games.

You haven't been paying attention then. PC has been getting Switch exclusives... And sometimes even before release date on Switch.
Legalities are a little bit meh, but they are available.. And run and look better.

LegitHyperbole said:

I never realised it took more graphics power. Maybe they can personalise the screen to look similar like some TV's that have that fake HDR dynamic preset, have to assume they'll use OLED also. 

It does. It's why Microsoft increased the clockrates on the Xbox One S over the base Xbox One.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

If Nintendo and Nvidia are going to use 4nm, it would be wise for them to adopt Lovelace as is rather than go through the trouble and port the Samsung Ampere to tsmc.

Honestly, I am okay with Ampere, it's capable with the features like Ray Tracing.
I just want more Ram to let the current hypothetical ampere-based GPU breathe.

And going Ampere would certainly be a cost-cutting measure as it's not the latest and greatest nVidia has to offer, so Nintendo likely got a good deal on the SoC's.

I just assumed it went without saying I was referencing legal titles, not highly illegal hacks.  But in the future I'll point out the blatantly obvious to avoid confusion.

I also don't think the legalities are "a bit meh."  Hacking, stealing and sharing games before launch is just flatly illegal.



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

at this point, I honestly don't care. I just want more amazing games from Nintendo



    R.I.P Mr Iwata :'(