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Tober said:

It appears the underlying message is that it's important to blame someone else for one being poor. Let's point the arrow on migrants or the 1% or who ever. The arrow needs to be pointed somewhere as long as it's not the mirror.

No, the message that is blatant out in the open in that quote is that the blame should be pushed on the people who deserve the blame instead of falling for the scapegoat.

It's the same game in every country. Wealth is extracted from the middle and lower classes via asset inflation, i.e. high prices for rent and housing which is a basic necessity. Then comes a political party that puts the blame on immigrants because xenophobia is a very common human instinct that also very commonly overrides rational thinking; the very same politicians often happen to directly benefit from asset inflation. They are the cause of the problem, but manage to sell themselves as the solution despite having no intent whatsoever to fix the problem.

How this works can be illustrated with a cookie plate analogy. Suppose there are four people sitting at a table, each one representing a different class of society: The rich, the middle, the lower and the immigrant. You also have a plate with 20 cookies sitting on the table, representing the wealth of a nation. When it's time to divide the wealth, the rich immediately pockets 18 cookies, points his finger at the immigrant and says to the middle and lower classes, "Watch out for the immigrant, he's going to take your two cookies!" - The depressing fact is that all too often the common people forget that there are 20 cookies in the first place and let the true culprit off the hook.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV will outsell Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was wrong.

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RolStoppable said:
Tober said:

It appears the underlying message is that it's important to blame someone else for one being poor. Let's point the arrow on migrants or the 1% or who ever. The arrow needs to be pointed somewhere as long as it's not the mirror.

No, the message that is blatant out in the open in that quote is that the blame should be pushed on the people who deserve the blame instead of falling for the scapegoat.

It's the same game in every country. Wealth is extracted from the middle and lower classes via asset inflation, i.e. high prices for rent and housing which is a basic necessity. Then comes a political party that puts the blame on immigrants because xenophobia is a very common human instinct that also very commonly overrides rational thinking; the very same politicians often happen to directly benefit from asset inflation. They are the cause of the problem, but manage to sell themselves as the solution despite having no intent whatsoever to fix the problem.

How this works can be illustrated with a cookie plate analogy. Suppose there are four people sitting at a table, each one representing a different class of society: The rich, the middle, the lower and the immigrant. You also have a plate with 20 cookies sitting on the table, representing the wealth of a nation. When it's time to divide the wealth, the rich immediately pockets 18 cookies, points his finger at the immigrant and says to the middle and lower classes, "Watch out for the immigrant, he's going to take your two cookies!" - The depressing fact is that all too often the common people forget that there are 20 cookies in the first place and let the true culprit off the hook.

The culprit?

Let's say I'm going to be brave and start my own business. With a lot of risk, sweat and tears I manage it to become successful. After a few decades of hard work, I become financial independent. I become rich. My family is now safe from financial concerns.... Now I'm to blame that someone else is poor?

Pointing a finger at someone else is never a good idea. It does not matter who it is. Victim mentality never helped anyone.



Leynos said:

This is like saying, 'if you're not a Christian, you shouldn't be celebrating, giving or receiving gifts at Christmas.'

Not everyone believes the same things, in the same manner, and ironically, not even in a melting pot.



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

Yes I did. It doesn't seem you do though.

You said people don't care about the deeper intentions or future, they just care about the hurt now. Well Canadians have been feeling the hurt for quite some time, and Trumps attempting to make things even more difficult for Canada, while pushing what leads to protectionism. Things are already bad for Trudeau and the Federal Liberals in power, so this will only make things worse for them, helping the Conservatives next election, with their Canada First campaigning.

Now, do countries need (strong) protectionism if they're working together in a manner that suits both and ends up a win win situation overall? That won't happen with American (Maga) Republicans and Canadian Liberals in power. Their mindsets, goals, and agenda's are too different. However, that can potentially be accomplished if the Canadian Conservatives are in power.

So, I wonder why Trump is making moves that help the Canadian Federal Conservative Party? Who would Trump rather deal with?

If people thought about deeper intentions then we would not see a change within 4 years like we do.  We would see people willing to stay the course for as long as they believe in that government or system and we would not see one party changing from one term to another.  

Why would what Trump does hurt the current legislation when that same person is making himself the culprit in the problem. If anything that would unify people against that person as pride will come into play.

As I stated, it would have been much smarter to negotiate first instead of telling the world you are going to force Canada to submit to your demands.  You say Canadians are hurting so having a villain to use as a scapegoat probably would work much better for the current administration.

If anything you seem to think Trump cares about your conservative party or even your government but if that was the case, he would negotiate first with your conservative party but he hasn't.  If anything your Trust that Trump cares is what I find very funny because if history is any indication, Trump only cares about himself and how he looks.  So the only way you get cooperation from Trump is if you bend the knee.  Lets see how that turn out for the conservative party if kissing Trump butt is the way to power.

If Trump was making moves to help the conservative party, we would not see reactions from the conservative party when he announced his tariffs.  What it shows is that he isn't doing anything to work with them, he is doing what he wants and you just believe he is.

Parties aren't super clear with their agenda's to begin with while campaigning, don't always follow through with what they say they will do when in power, and have to deal with an entire Country as well as the rest of the world and it's constant change, like the climate, for example. There is no such thing as get in line and stay in line in a democracy.

The current Canadian Liberal Federal Gov sucks. They were in power during Trumps first term. The masses have had enough and the polling shows it. It also shows the masses are heavily leaning towards the Conservative Party, and Canada has like 5 or 6 major parties. Though arguably, only 2 are really serious contenders. The Conservatives are campaigning on protecting Canada, and what Trump is doing, right now, as you said, is forcing Canada to want to protect itself, which obviously helps the Conservatives a great deal.

Most of the time negotiating behind closed doors, especially with Trudeau and his Cabinet, will get you nowhere. If you bring it into the light however, it evens the playing field because now they look bad to all the people, and forces them to have to play serious politics. Using Trump as a villain worked for the Federal Liberals back during Trumps first term, but everyone has wised up since. The way our Gov handled the pandemic, and how they handled the trucker protests was basically the final straw.

How is Trump supposed to negotiate with our Federal Conservative Party if they're not in power? What are they going to be able to accomplish? The only negotiations that would matter, are if they were based on the Conservatives winning the next election, and if they need to win the next election, wouldn't you want to nudge Canada in that direction if you could?

Trump cares about himself and America first, yes, but that doesn't mean you can't end up with a win win situation where both America and Canada get to benefit, and right now, Canada needs some benefitting of some sort period. Plenty of American people, politicians, and sectors, seemingly kissed Trumps butt, which supposedly was going to be to their detriment because Trump was going to lose, but he won, and not by tiny margin either.

I already told you the Conservatives here aren't stupid. Their campaign message is Canada First, but they don't say it like that at all, to make sure they don't have to deal with the nonsense that would follow because of it. They're reacting to Trump the way they need to now because, again, it keeps them from having to deal with the nonsense of what would follow if they agreed with him publicly. Not that they completely agree with Trump, but they're more on Trumps side than Trudeau's, because what Trudeau has been doing, isn't working.



EricHiggin said:

This is like saying, 'if you're not a Christian, you shouldn't be celebrating, giving or receiving gifts at Christmas.'

Not everyone believes the same things, in the same manner, and ironically, not even in a melting pot.

It depends. If they aren't religious to begin with, there is no divine moral mandate not to celebrate Christmas, is there?

I think it goes without saying that most religious people don't think much about the implications and consequences of their belief systems and actions. That doesn't mean you can dismiss a challenge on a particular viewpoint because someone having a right to their own opinion or not is irrelevant to the argument.

Agreeing to disagreeing has never been anything but fallacious if not outright damaging when factually wrong opinions are involved (anti-vaxxer, flat Earthers, etc.)



 

 

 

 

 

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Religion, root cause of all evil?


US senator introduces bill to refer to West Bank as Judea and Samaria

Tom Cotton, a staunchly pro-Israel Republican, has put forward a measure that would ban the federal government from referring to the occupied West Bank by its name.

The bill, which is unlikely to pass in the final weeks of the outgoing Congress, would require the government to call the Palestinian territory by a biblical name that the Israelis use – Judea and Samaria.

“The US should stop using the politically charged term West Bank to refer to the biblical heartland of Israel,” Cotton said in a statement.

“The Israeli people have an undeniable and indisputable historical and legal claim over Judea and Samaria, and at this critical moment in history, the United States must reaffirm this.”

There is near international consensus that the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is an illegally occupied Palestinian territory. Earlier this year, the ICJ – the UN’s top tribunal – ruled that the Israeli occupation is unlawful and demanded its end.


Navajo Nation and others have an undeniable and indisputable claim to NA and NA should from now on be referred to as Turtle Island.



EricHiggin said:
Machiavellian said:

If people thought about deeper intentions then we would not see a change within 4 years like we do.  We would see people willing to stay the course for as long as they believe in that government or system and we would not see one party changing from one term to another.  

Why would what Trump does hurt the current legislation when that same person is making himself the culprit in the problem. If anything that would unify people against that person as pride will come into play.

As I stated, it would have been much smarter to negotiate first instead of telling the world you are going to force Canada to submit to your demands.  You say Canadians are hurting so having a villain to use as a scapegoat probably would work much better for the current administration.

If anything you seem to think Trump cares about your conservative party or even your government but if that was the case, he would negotiate first with your conservative party but he hasn't.  If anything your Trust that Trump cares is what I find very funny because if history is any indication, Trump only cares about himself and how he looks.  So the only way you get cooperation from Trump is if you bend the knee.  Lets see how that turn out for the conservative party if kissing Trump butt is the way to power.

If Trump was making moves to help the conservative party, we would not see reactions from the conservative party when he announced his tariffs.  What it shows is that he isn't doing anything to work with them, he is doing what he wants and you just believe he is.

Parties aren't super clear with their agenda's to begin with while campaigning, don't always follow through with what they say they will do when in power, and have to deal with an entire Country as well as the rest of the world and it's constant change, like the climate, for example. There is no such thing as get in line and stay in line in a democracy.

The current Canadian Liberal Federal Gov sucks. They were in power during Trumps first term. The masses have had enough and the polling shows it. It also shows the masses are heavily leaning towards the Conservative Party, and Canada has like 5 or 6 major parties. Though arguably, only 2 are really serious contenders. The Conservatives are campaigning on protecting Canada, and what Trump is doing, right now, as you said, is forcing Canada to want to protect itself, which obviously helps the Conservatives a great deal.

Most of the time negotiating behind closed doors, especially with Trudeau and his Cabinet, will get you nowhere. If you bring it into the light however, it evens the playing field because now they look bad to all the people, and forces them to have to play serious politics. Using Trump as a villain worked for the Federal Liberals back during Trumps first term, but everyone has wised up since. The way our Gov handled the pandemic, and how they handled the trucker protests was basically the final straw.

How is Trump supposed to negotiate with our Federal Conservative Party if they're not in power? What are they going to be able to accomplish? The only negotiations that would matter, are if they were based on the Conservatives winning the next election, and if they need to win the next election, wouldn't you want to nudge Canada in that direction if you could?

Trump cares about himself and America first, yes, but that doesn't mean you can't end up with a win win situation where both America and Canada get to benefit, and right now, Canada needs some benefitting of some sort period. Plenty of American people, politicians, and sectors, seemingly kissed Trumps butt, which supposedly was going to be to their detriment because Trump was going to lose, but he won, and not by tiny margin either.

I already told you the Conservatives here aren't stupid. Their campaign message is Canada First, but they don't say it like that at all, to make sure they don't have to deal with the nonsense that would follow because of it. They're reacting to Trump the way they need to now because, again, it keeps them from having to deal with the nonsense of what would follow if they agreed with him publicly. Not that they completely agree with Trump, but they're more on Trumps side than Trudeau's, because what Trudeau has been doing, isn't working.

Never said negotiate behind closed doors, I said negotiate first before telling the world that you are going to FORCE Canada and Mexico to submit to your demands.  Its much easier to come to an agreement where both parties can say they are in agreement than to first take an aggressive stance than hope they come to the negotiation table.  So now if either country bend the knee, they look weak while Trump gets to take the victory lap.  As I stated, he tried that same tactic with China, you still have not given any indication of why that will work with Canada or is Canada weak and is ready to submit to America rule.

You cannot have a win situation if negotiations start with the American President telling your country to bend the knee first.  This is why your statements just funny to me.  You want so bad to make everything that Trump say and do be the correct course all the while accepting another country trying to make you sub servant at the same time, then proclaiming that the party you support wants independence.  Next you attempt to make it seem like a glorious cooperative plan by Trump to help that party when its clear its not because your conservative party did not respond like it was some type of blessing.

Lol, the only one I see who is on Trump side is you.  You continue to defend Trump stance then proclaim its good for the party you support while Trump plan has nothing to do with your conservative party.  Its you that saying your conservative party can have a mutual working relationship with Trump administration but no where has Trump even shone the slightest that he cares.  He is going to force Canada to bend the knee because it makes him look strong and he loves appearances but somehow you are trying to tell us that is going to be a great situation for Canada and your conservative party "Canada First".  Yeah, good luck with that.

You still seem to be getting ahead of yourself before Trump has served a day in office.  Why don't you wait until he actually implement what he says he is going to do before you give him the victory lap.  Yes, he is president, now the fun part start which is actually performing in that role.  So lets see how well him blanket tariffs against the world going to turn out or will he just wuss out.

  



Tober said:
RolStoppable said:

No, the message that is blatant out in the open in that quote is that the blame should be pushed on the people who deserve the blame instead of falling for the scapegoat.

It's the same game in every country. Wealth is extracted from the middle and lower classes via asset inflation, i.e. high prices for rent and housing which is a basic necessity. Then comes a political party that puts the blame on immigrants because xenophobia is a very common human instinct that also very commonly overrides rational thinking; the very same politicians often happen to directly benefit from asset inflation. They are the cause of the problem, but manage to sell themselves as the solution despite having no intent whatsoever to fix the problem.

How this works can be illustrated with a cookie plate analogy. Suppose there are four people sitting at a table, each one representing a different class of society: The rich, the middle, the lower and the immigrant. You also have a plate with 20 cookies sitting on the table, representing the wealth of a nation. When it's time to divide the wealth, the rich immediately pockets 18 cookies, points his finger at the immigrant and says to the middle and lower classes, "Watch out for the immigrant, he's going to take your two cookies!" - The depressing fact is that all too often the common people forget that there are 20 cookies in the first place and let the true culprit off the hook.

The culprit?

Let's say I'm going to be brave and start my own business. With a lot of risk, sweat and tears I manage it to become successful. After a few decades of hard work, I become financial independent. I become rich. My family is now safe from financial concerns.... Now I'm to blame that someone else is poor?

Pointing a finger at someone else is never a good idea. It does not matter who it is. Victim mentality never helped anyone.

I think you’re missing the point, very few people are going to have an issue with the concept you’re talking about. Someone starting a small business, it growing over time and them being financially set for life. Many would consider that the American dream.

The problem is the people and corporations that hoard hundreds of millions or billions of dollars and exploit the working class while lobbying for tax cuts and deregulation so they can increase the hoarding and exploitation.

Higher taxes and regulations on the ultra wealthy and corporations helps the working class by increasing worker protections and expanding access to things like healthcare, education, child/elder care, housing, infrastructure, environmental protections and safety net programs.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

haxxiy said:
EricHiggin said:

This is like saying, 'if you're not a Christian, you shouldn't be celebrating, giving or receiving gifts at Christmas.'

Not everyone believes the same things, in the same manner, and ironically, not even in a melting pot.

It depends. If they aren't religious to begin with, there is no divine moral mandate not to celebrate Christmas, is there?

I think it goes without saying that most religious people don't think much about the implications and consequences of their belief systems and actions. That doesn't mean you can dismiss a challenge on a particular viewpoint because someone having a right to their own opinion or not is irrelevant to the argument.

Agreeing to disagreeing has never been anything but fallacious if not outright damaging when factually wrong opinions are involved (anti-vaxxer, flat Earthers, etc.)

You're right, but need to expand your answer. Most people period, don't think things through, religious or not.

It depends, is exactly right, and because of that, there really is no definite point or answer either way.



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

Parties aren't super clear with their agenda's to begin with while campaigning, don't always follow through with what they say they will do when in power, and have to deal with an entire Country as well as the rest of the world and it's constant change, like the climate, for example. There is no such thing as get in line and stay in line in a democracy.

The current Canadian Liberal Federal Gov sucks. They were in power during Trumps first term. The masses have had enough and the polling shows it. It also shows the masses are heavily leaning towards the Conservative Party, and Canada has like 5 or 6 major parties. Though arguably, only 2 are really serious contenders. The Conservatives are campaigning on protecting Canada, and what Trump is doing, right now, as you said, is forcing Canada to want to protect itself, which obviously helps the Conservatives a great deal.

Most of the time negotiating behind closed doors, especially with Trudeau and his Cabinet, will get you nowhere. If you bring it into the light however, it evens the playing field because now they look bad to all the people, and forces them to have to play serious politics. Using Trump as a villain worked for the Federal Liberals back during Trumps first term, but everyone has wised up since. The way our Gov handled the pandemic, and how they handled the trucker protests was basically the final straw.

How is Trump supposed to negotiate with our Federal Conservative Party if they're not in power? What are they going to be able to accomplish? The only negotiations that would matter, are if they were based on the Conservatives winning the next election, and if they need to win the next election, wouldn't you want to nudge Canada in that direction if you could?

Trump cares about himself and America first, yes, but that doesn't mean you can't end up with a win win situation where both America and Canada get to benefit, and right now, Canada needs some benefitting of some sort period. Plenty of American people, politicians, and sectors, seemingly kissed Trumps butt, which supposedly was going to be to their detriment because Trump was going to lose, but he won, and not by tiny margin either.

I already told you the Conservatives here aren't stupid. Their campaign message is Canada First, but they don't say it like that at all, to make sure they don't have to deal with the nonsense that would follow because of it. They're reacting to Trump the way they need to now because, again, it keeps them from having to deal with the nonsense of what would follow if they agreed with him publicly. Not that they completely agree with Trump, but they're more on Trumps side than Trudeau's, because what Trudeau has been doing, isn't working.

Never said negotiate behind closed doors, I said negotiate first before telling the world that you are going to FORCE Canada and Mexico to submit to your demands.  Its much easier to come to an agreement where both parties can say they are in agreement than to first take an aggressive stance than hope they come to the negotiation table.  So now if either country bend the knee, they look weak while Trump gets to take the victory lap.  As I stated, he tried that same tactic with China, you still have not given any indication of why that will work with Canada or is Canada weak and is ready to submit to America rule.

You cannot have a win situation if negotiations start with the American President telling your country to bend the knee first.  This is why your statements just funny to me.  You want so bad to make everything that Trump say and do be the correct course all the while accepting another country trying to make you sub servant at the same time, then proclaiming that the party you support wants independence.  Next you attempt to make it seem like a glorious cooperative plan by Trump to help that party when its clear its not because your conservative party did not respond like it was some type of blessing.

Lol, the only one I see who is on Trump side is you.  You continue to defend Trump stance then proclaim its good for the party you support while Trump plan has nothing to do with your conservative party.  Its you that saying your conservative party can have a mutual working relationship with Trump administration but no where has Trump even shone the slightest that he cares.  He is going to force Canada to bend the knee because it makes him look strong and he loves appearances but somehow you are trying to tell us that is going to be a great situation for Canada and your conservative party "Canada First".  Yeah, good luck with that.

You still seem to be getting ahead of yourself before Trump has served a day in office.  Why don't you wait until he actually implement what he says he is going to do before you give him the victory lap.  Yes, he is president, now the fun part start which is actually performing in that role.  So lets see how well him blanket tariffs against the world going to turn out or will he just wuss out.

I honestly can't believe that orange man bad is still almost always the answer, which just tells me that the left still hasn't learned. I wasn't sure if the next 4 years would be more or less funny than the first 4, but it's definitely looking like it's going to be far more hilarious this time, somehow.

'Canada should become the 51st state and you could be the Governor.' DJT to JT

At the moment, that deal don't sound too bad. Now remove Trudeau from the deal and you'd actually have our attention.

Maybe it'll happen right after Trump buys Greenland... Who knows?