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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nvidia employee acknowledges Tegra 239 SoC rumored to be powering Switch 2

Pemalite said:

If they were using it purely for the framebuffer, 16MB of ESRAM would have sufficed for drawing a 1080p image.

Rather, they used it for render targets because at this point deferred renderers were finally gaining traction.

eSRAM has gotten a second life anyway... Case in point RDNA2 with it's Infinity Cache... The 6600XT for instance has just 32MB, just like the Xbox One.
SRAM caches definitely have a place... As AMD has showcased with Infinity Cache. (Essentially a chunky L3 for the GPU.)

Bold 1: This is only true for a raw 1080p image. Not for one using antialiasing like SSAA, FSAA, MSAA, etc. Which is helpful for rendering targets as the implementation of AA is harder with deferred rendering. 

Bold 2: Almost all CPU caches are made with SRAM, so of course SRAM has a place. 



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Soundwave said:

I don't know if many people would describe the Wii U as a hybrid system, more like a stationary console that has a controller with a screen on it that can play games on it. 

It's a fixed console that didn't rely on a TV. It had it's own display.

That is a deviation from the norm and can be considered a "hybrid" design as it adopted mobile (Albeit limited) aspects.

Soundwave said:

Technically I think even PS4 could do this if you had a Vita. But that's actually not the point, the point of contention and controversy prior to the Switch unveiling was Nintendo will not abandon the 2-system per generation setup they had going for almost three decades by that point because it was established tradition that Nintendo must have 2, even 3 distinct hardware products per generation (one portable, one home console at minimum). 

Nintendo is a company at the end of the day... And companies tend to have the goal of providing a return of investment to it's shareholders.
If their prior approach fails to gain traction... I.E. 3DS and WiiU and provide shareholders on expected returns, then they need to change tact and try something different.
So the Switch happened.

Soundwave said:

You can watch the hilarious reactions of people like Supermetaldave64 who were 100% sure the Switch could not be a hybrid, or if it was it couldn't be the only system Nintendo would make, there had to be a standard home console only and they were stunned by the Switch reveal. 

There were so many crazy assertions on what the Switch was/wasn't before it's unveil. Heck. Even as recently as the Switch OLED being a 4k gaming device.

Some of the claims on this forum were pretty "out there" and simply not technically feasible.

It brings home the idea of the need that we need to take everything with a pinch of salt until an official statement/unveil.

But sadly... Time and again we see people fall into the same hype-traps.

Soundwave said:

Having followed gaming for generations going back to the 80s even, there is no generation where certain trusted historical precedents aren't broken. Rules always change and evolve, 12 years ago if you told people here that Nintendo would amalgamate their home console and portable hardware into one unified device no one would believe you. 

That is because Nintendo's mobile division was "killing it" in the market and it's home fixed consoles were still finding a degree of success.
So it didn't make sense to roll that all into one device.

The only downside is that by having a single device, if Nintendo doesn't find success with each generation, their financials will be at a higher degree of risk... I.E. When the WiiU floundered, Nintendo still had the 3DS to bring in income.

Soundwave said:

If you said Playstation 5 and XBox Series X would have no major exclusives 2 years into their product cycle even from Sony and Microsoft themselves, no one would've believed that even 5 years ago. 

Yeah. But I tend to avoid making assertions/predicting the future based on zero evidence anyway. :P

The Xbox One/Playstation 4/Xbox Series X/Playstation 5 are so PC-heavy in technology that console "cycles" are being blurred. Everything just carries forwards.
The initial messaging that we also got when the 9th gen consoles dropped was for a long period of cross-platform releases.

That and the scarcity of consoles has likely pushed developers to keep releasing on last gen as well so they can continue to have a large install base to sell their games to.

Soundwave said:

Companies only adhere to "historical precedents" if it serves their purpose in the present day/future, if it doesn't, they abandon and change things all the time. Also just announcing a new hardware doesn't really mean a whole lot, everyone knows Playstation 6, XBox Next, Switch 2, etc. etc. are already into development, Switch 2 probably nearing the end of its development cycle if it isn't in the full on prototype stage already.  

100% agreed.
They only stick to market trends if it's working for them, once things start to go sideways, they change tact.

I think the expectation is for Nintendo to continue along the current Switch path and just release a more powerful, updated iterative design rather than re-invent the wheel... Because the Switch concept -is- working for them extremely well.

sc94597 said:

Sure. I don't think that is a disagreement. The 32 MB of eSRAM definitely does help with total realizable memory management, albeit it takes up a lot of space on the SoC at the expense of other resources. The interesting discussion is whether or not if Microsoft decided to go the expensive route and keep the DDR3 + eSRAM setup, but also have a bigger SoC that could match the PS4 by not compromising on other resources. (This wouldn't make sense to do, but we're talking hypothetically.) Would it "have had a graphics edge by a significant margin?" I think it would depend on a game-by-game basis and the nature of the assets being streamed from the memory to the CPU. Any title that was designed around a few but larger assets would probably advantage the PS4, while anything with many smaller assets would probably advantage the hypothetical XBO. 

Depends on how wide they make the memory bus.
You can have DDR1 Ram end up being faster than DDR5 Ram if you make the bus wide enough.

Remember, memory transactions are highly parallel.

But if hypothetically Microsoft did have a GPU that was identical to the PS4, but retained the same current DDR3/eSRAM setup, then it would undoubtedly still loose.

It's not even about the whole big vs small assets issue either... Tiled based rendering was a thing on many PS4 game engines as well... Mostly because of it's efficiency advantages.

SRAM, even AMD's infinity cache is designed to hide memory transactions from DRAM as DRAM has less bandwidth and higher latencies... But it's caveat is that it is extremely tiny... So there will still be memory transactions to DRAM where it will receive an orders-of-magnitude penalty.

The point of SRAM/Infinity Cache was to -avoid- the necessity of having wider, more expensive, more power hungry memory buses which necessitated a large and complex memory controller to drive it all, which drove up power consumption.
It was a cost/efficiency balance that worked out in AMD's favor... And that's the key. It needs to be balanced.

If Microsoft for example had DDR3 memory on a 768-bit bus (For 204.9GB/s of bandwidth) with 32MB of eSRAM to act as an L3 cache/Infinity Cache, then it would beat the PS4 every single time if it had the same GPU.

But when it is 68.3GB/s.. That 32MB of cache just won't make up the extra 100GB/s of bandwidth. It just can't, not unless it was increased to something like 128MB or more.

Doctor_MG said:

Bold 1: This is only true for a raw 1080p image. Not for one using antialiasing like SSAA, FSAA, MSAA, etc. Which is helpful for rendering targets as the implementation of AA is harder with deferred rendering. 

Bold 2: Almost all CPU caches are made with SRAM, so of course SRAM has a place. 


AA of the 8th gen consoles isn't the same as AA of the past... No one really uses things like MSAA anymore which requires super sampling of edges.
Rather... Post process effects done on the shader pipeline to "blur" edges tends to be the go-to method for many game engines, which actually doesn't increase memory demands to much.

Doctor_MG said:

Bold 2: Almost all CPU caches are made with SRAM, so of course SRAM has a place. 

I was strictly speaking in a different context of course.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 24 September 2022

--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Soundwave said:

I don't know if many people would describe the Wii U as a hybrid system, more like a stationary console that has a controller with a screen on it that can play games on it. 

Technically I think even PS4 could do this if you had a Vita. But that's actually not the point, the point of contention and controversy prior to the Switch unveiling was Nintendo will not abandon the 2-system per generation setup they had going for almost three decades by that point because it was established tradition that Nintendo must have 2, even 3 distinct hardware products per generation (one portable, one home console at minimum). 

You can watch the hilarious reactions of people like Supermetaldave64 who were 100% sure the Switch could not be a hybrid, or if it was it couldn't be the only system Nintendo would make, there had to be a standard home console only and they were stunned by the Switch reveal. 

Having followed gaming for generations going back to the 80s even, there is no generation where certain trusted historical precedents aren't broken. Rules always change and evolve, 12 years ago if you told people here that Nintendo would amalgamate their home console and portable hardware into one unified device no one would believe you. 

If you said Playstation 5 and XBox Series X would have no major exclusives 2 years into their product cycle even from Sony and Microsoft themselves, no one would've believed that even 5 years ago. 

Companies only adhere to "historical precedents" if it serves their purpose in the present day/future, if it doesn't, they abandon and change things all the time. Also just announcing a new hardware doesn't really mean a whole lot, everyone knows Playstation 6, XBox Next, Switch 2, etc. etc. are already into development, Switch 2 probably nearing the end of its development cycle if it isn't in the full on prototype stage already.  

Imagine a time traveler telling PS fans that Sony would start putting its first-party games on PC, or that there will be cross-console multiplayer and save files.



How does it compare to the ps4 pro?



Chrkeller said:
Soundwave said:

If you order 5 pizzas for a dinner party, but then you decide at the last minute you don't want to have pizza that night but move the party to the following week, you're still paying for the pizzas you already ordered. The pizza place doesn't care if you need them or not. 

In this case the pizza place is Nvidia, lol. 

"New hardware" doesn't neccessarily have to mean the old hardware is replaced/thrown out/thrown into the discount bin any more either. The "new" Switch can just be another product in the Switch family of products. The days of one hardware completely shutting down the previous hardware are starting to go away any how. It's fall 2022 (two years since the PS5 launched) and the big flag ship Sony title for the fall (God of War Ragnarok) is still coming out on PS4. 2023 big ticket releases like Resident Evil 4 Remake are still coming out on PS4. 

Don't think the OLED Switch model and Switch Lite are going anywhere and they will be getting the top Nintendo releases for several more years past 2023. 

Correct.  Just because I bought something doesn't mean I have to use it.  And I'm guessing via Switch sales Nvidia is selling more than expected.  I would suspect their relationship with Nintendo is quite nice at the moment.  

Personally I am happy to upgrade...  but I've been told every year for 3 years now...  a new Switch is coming...  still waiting.  Will there ever be a point where people accept there isn't a Switch Pro?

A more apt pizza analogy would be  you have sat down with the chef and invested in a new recipe for your next pizza but while the old pizza is popular you will continue to taste test and fine tune the new recipe while you wait for the opportune time.



Research shows Video games  help make you smarter, so why am I an idiot

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Pemalite said:

There were so many crazy assertions on what the Switch was/wasn't before it's unveil. Heck. Even as recently as the Switch OLED being a 4k gaming device.

I still believe that the rumors were true, but Nintendo decided at the last minute to scrap the idea on a big upgrade over the regular Switch. Cause when you have a look to the rumours, this is pretty much what we had back then:

- new Switch with bigger OLED screen

- ethernet port

- bigger internal memory

- "MS Surface-like stand"

- 4K output

- upcoming games to be "4K ready"

And we got pretty much everything correct, and even the new dock can technically output 4K and 120fps (I don't recall if it was at the same time or just 4k@60 or 1080p@120fps) EXCEPT for the new Tegra chip.



SKMBlake said:
Pemalite said:

There were so many crazy assertions on what the Switch was/wasn't before it's unveil. Heck. Even as recently as the Switch OLED being a 4k gaming device.

I still believe that the rumors were true, but Nintendo decided at the last minute to scrap the idea on a big upgrade over the regular Switch. Cause when you have a look to the rumours, this is pretty much what we had back then:

- new Switch with bigger OLED screen

- ethernet port

- bigger internal memory

- "MS Surface-like stand"

- 4K output

- upcoming games to be "4K ready"

And we got pretty much everything correct, and even the new dock can technically output 4K and 120fps (I don't recall if it was at the same time or just 4k@60 or 1080p@120fps) EXCEPT for the new Tegra chip.

And yet... It didn't actually happen.
It's not like Nintendo did a bait-and-switch at the last moment and opted to retain the old chip, these things are planned years in advance.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
SKMBlake said:

I still believe that the rumors were true, but Nintendo decided at the last minute to scrap the idea on a big upgrade over the regular Switch. Cause when you have a look to the rumours, this is pretty much what we had back then:

- new Switch with bigger OLED screen

- ethernet port

- bigger internal memory

- "MS Surface-like stand"

- 4K output

- upcoming games to be "4K ready"

And we got pretty much everything correct, and even the new dock can technically output 4K and 120fps (I don't recall if it was at the same time or just 4k@60 or 1080p@120fps) EXCEPT for the new Tegra chip.

And yet... It didn't actually happen.
It's not like Nintendo did a bait-and-switch at the last moment and opted to retain the old chip, these things are planned years in advance.

More than likely it was a simple mix up. 

Production line leaks (correctly) pointed to a Nintendo Switch model with an OLED screen and new dock and if you're also getting info on a new dev kit with a new chip, the natural assumption would be this is probably all for one model instead of being two different devices. Pretty easy mistake to make. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 17 October 2022

Looks like this could come at a premium



Soundwave said:
Pemalite said:

And yet... It didn't actually happen.
It's not like Nintendo did a bait-and-switch at the last moment and opted to retain the old chip, these things are planned years in advance.

More than likely it was a simple mix up. 

Production line leaks (correctly) pointed to a Nintendo Switch model with an OLED screen and new dock and if you're also getting info on a new dev kit with a new chip, the natural assumption would be this is probably all for one model instead of being two different devices. Pretty easy mistake to make. 

Using dev kits to project what a consumer device is going to be, opens up for potential issues as decent Dev Kits have typically always ran with a few changes in hardware to aid in development. I.E. More Ram or faster CPU/GPU etc' to account for profiling and logging tools overhead.

And this circles back around to my previous point... Stop. Beleving. Rumors.

The amount of people who flat out get it wrong... Time and again, just out of excitement, only to fall for the next rumor is absolutely depressing.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--