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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Gamers can be toxic to devs and vice versa

Chrkeller said:
gtotheunit91 said:

If only it were actually that simple. We would still be in the middle of a lootbox hell right now if it weren't for governments around the world investigating lootboxes for gambling. Even though most countries won't recognize them as such, having lootboxes in your game became a detriment to game companies. Although some companies will refuse drop them entirely (EA) as one example.

But, the past 10 years have taught me that if 2 out 10 people buy lootboxes/microtransactions, most gaming companies will design their games based on the 2 that did buy, rather than the other 8 that didn't. So, regardless if you "don't like it, don't buy it" it's not going to matter in the end, and we're the ones that get the short end of the stick for it. Sucks, but that's the reality of the gaming industry as is. 

Gaming industry is a reflection of gamers.   Online isn't free...  why?  Because gamers will pay for it.  It is that simple.  A company cannot sell a product people don't buy.

Really? Because I don't recall gamers ever asking for microtransactions, lootboxes, or in more recent times, NFT's. But, they've been made for gamers anyway, regardless of the backlash because, like I said before, those 2 out of 10 bought into their BS.

Gaming companies in modern times have mastered creating a problem that never existed, and selling us the solution. It's all about seeing what they can get away with. Which, as it has turned out, has been quite a bit. NFT's is seeming to be the one that's breaking that mold, but, these companies will try again and try again and try again until it's normalized. 



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gtotheunit91 said:
Chrkeller said:

Gaming industry is a reflection of gamers.   Online isn't free...  why?  Because gamers will pay for it.  It is that simple.  A company cannot sell a product people don't buy.

Really? Because I don't recall gamers ever asking for microtransactions, lootboxes, or in more recent times, NFT's. But, they've been made for gamers anyway, regardless of the backlash because, like I said before, those 2 out of 10 bought into their BS.

Gaming companies in modern times have mastered creating a problem that never existed, and selling us the solution. It's all about seeing what they can get away with. Which, as it has turned out, has been quite a bit. NFT's is seeming to be the one that's breaking that mold, but, these companies will try again and try again and try again until it's normalized. 

Alright, let us simplify this.  If a company spends more money than they make....  what happens?    

Correct.  They go out of business.  A company cannot exist unless they have consumers BUYING their products.  

People bought MTX..  People bought lootboxes....  Companies made money from those products.  If they weren't making money, they wouldn't keep selling them.

The bolded part of your post is exactly what I am saying....  people bought them.  If people didn't buy them, companies wouldn't sell them.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 18 July 2022

Chrkeller said:

I find that overly complex, because reality is simple.  Developers need to make money...  if people stop buying any game with lootboxes and developers bleed negative profits for a year, want to know what will happen?  Developers will drop lootboxes. 

Fact is if people buy it, developers will sell it.  So I stand by my "don't like it, don't buy it."  

And it isn't hard to figure out if something has lootboxes or if a game is good/bad..  there are literally 100 review sites out there to review prior to purchase.

1)

But you do realise current market is vastly different compared to what it was before the videogame market crash of the 80's?. Way back then, people got sick of being flooded with knockoff games, or the same game over and over again (other factors contributed but you get the picture), which in turn had people buying less and less until shit hit the fan.

Today's market is different, because the market has you, me and all the folks on this forum, most of which are core gamers, and then you have the mobile gamers, the uber casuals and a mixture of core and casual whales. Our segment is already dwarfed and small, and some of which I imagine are very aware of the bad practices that happen within the industry, but I can tell you with certainty that the whales either do not notice or do not care, and because that is the bigger group, the bad practices continue. 

You can stand by that point, it's yours to own, I'm not trying to take away from it, my main point was calling customers "entitled", because I've seen that thrown around a lot these days like a free coupon, and half the time it's tossed around without any regards to how the customers are even treated or regarded as (y'know, whales, the word that higher ups like to call the common gamer these days).

2) Most casuals don't go out of their way to review and often at times get wrapped up in the hype or simply from word of mouth like you and I can be. You'd be surprised as to how many people out there do not always sift through reviews to look for faults, pros & cons.



Step right up come on in, feel the buzz in your veins, I'm like an chemical electrical right into your brain and I'm the one who killed the Radio, soon you'll all see

So pay up motherfuckers you belong to "V"

I think you will find alot of toxicity in every fandom; gaming, sports, various tv shows and movies, etc. Do some people take things way too far with their criticism of developers? Absolutely. But I absolutely don't think that gamers are the only fandom guilty of this, and I absolutely don't think that it's any more widespread in gaming than in any other fandom. We've had actors driven off social media due to attacks for playing characters the fans didn't like, we've had writers and directors for tv shows and movies receiving death threats for decisions the fanbase didn't like, etc.

I don't think the toxicity in gaming is anywhere near as widespread as people make it out to be. At most, it's maybe 10% who are vocal in their social media criticism of developers, and the worst of the worst, the types who send threats to developers via private message and such, those are like 0.001% of the gaming population. It's a "few bad apples spoil the bunch" situation.

Part of the problem is that a combination of internet anonymity and societal changes have produced legions of trolls who think it is ok to bully people online (it's not). Part of the problem is that people don't cope with criticism as well as they did in the past, we have alot of thin skinned people. As a society, we've been coddled to a degree, and it has produced more people who are mentally weaker than they were in the past. Some people like myself, who was bullied alot growing up, adapted and grew a thick skin, but there simply are alot more thin skinned people than there were in the past, and instead of adapting and growing a thicker skin when they deal with criticism or abuse, they just fall apart. You can blame it on a variety of factors; weaker parenting, the whole "no losers" take on child sports, and more, but it's clear to see that people take offense more easily than in the past and cope worse with criticism and bullying than they did in the past.

Now I'm not saying that all of the developers who are complaining about the level of hate they receive are unwarranted in their belief that they have been wronged. Death threats and such are never ok, and any developer receiving them has a right to complain. But if you make a stupid decision that you know is going to rile up the fans, be it moving from singleplayer to a GaaS focus with lootboxes, or a story decision that you know the fans won't like, or selling exclusivity on a formerly multiplat franchise to a single platform holder, you should absolutely be ready for a barrage of fan criticism, and if you're not prepared to handle that criticism, don't make the mistake in the first place. I get that the social media teams for developers don't make those decisions, it's the executives and the publishers, but those execs and publishers need to look out for the mental health of their social media teams by not making their jobs harder through poor decision making that they know will piss off the fans.

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 19 July 2022

Darashiva said:

Pretty much. One of the worst aspects of video games in general is a specific section of the audience being unbearable self-entitled idiots who think that they are owed something by the developers simply because they happen to be fans of the games. That exact same thing that's going on with Bungie happened with Ron Gilbert and Return of Monkey Island because a group of "fans" thought the rational thing to do was to send personal attacks to developers when they didn't like some aspect of the game.

https://geekculture.co/return-to-monkey-island-developer-ron-gilbert-stops-game-updates-due-to-personal-attacks/

Ka-pi96 said:

It is, yes. But I also don't really have any sympathy for the majority of development studios* when they keep doing ridiculous crap and trying to gouge money out of people using predatory practices. Like it's not something I'm ever going to do, for obvious reasons, but if people want to send angry messages to somebody like that Activision CEO then I'm not really going to criticise them doing it either.

*I say development studios because I know a lot of individual developers don't have any say over what their company does and aren't to blame.

Darwinianevolution said:

I wonder where the "gamers are toxic we need to protect ourselves" problem ends and the "we need an excuse to blame our problems on, let's point to toxic fans" begins.
I blame social media. It polarizes absolutely everything.


I think you three quite well summarised the main issues that contribute to create this problem.
Personally, I think long time fans of classical series have some right to ask devs for quality and some continuity and coherence in the series, but their right ends when they stop being polite, and devs have the right to follow the paths they choose anyway and the choice to fulfil fans' wishes or not is theirs.



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Chazore said:
Chrkeller said:

I find that overly complex, because reality is simple.  Developers need to make money...  if people stop buying any game with lootboxes and developers bleed negative profits for a year, want to know what will happen?  Developers will drop lootboxes. 

Fact is if people buy it, developers will sell it.  So I stand by my "don't like it, don't buy it."  

And it isn't hard to figure out if something has lootboxes or if a game is good/bad..  there are literally 100 review sites out there to review prior to purchase.

1)

But you do realise current market is vastly different compared to what it was before the videogame market crash of the 80's?. Way back then, people got sick of being flooded with knockoff games, or the same game over and over again (other factors contributed but you get the picture), which in turn had people buying less and less until shit hit the fan.

Today's market is different, because the market has you, me and all the folks on this forum, most of which are core gamers, and then you have the mobile gamers, the uber casuals and a mixture of core and casual whales. Our segment is already dwarfed and small, and some of which I imagine are very aware of the bad practices that happen within the industry, but I can tell you with certainty that the whales either do not notice or do not care, and because that is the bigger group, the bad practices continue. 

You can stand by that point, it's yours to own, I'm not trying to take away from it, my main point was calling customers "entitled", because I've seen that thrown around a lot these days like a free coupon, and half the time it's tossed around without any regards to how the customers are even treated or regarded as (y'know, whales, the word that higher ups like to call the common gamer these days).

2) Most casuals don't go out of their way to review and often at times get wrapped up in the hype or simply from word of mouth like you and I can be. You'd be surprised as to how many people out there do not always sift through reviews to look for faults, pros & cons.

Exactly.  People are buying it.  Developers are selling products that people clearly want.  Just because I don't like them, well that doesn't mean anything.  A a developer doesn't owe me anything.  I am not entitled to have the games I want.  

Anybody who buys a product without researching, that is their problem.  Researching takes less than 2 minutes and can be done on a phone.



Chrkeller said:

Exactly.  People are buying it.  Developers are selling products that people clearly want.  Just because I don't like them, well that doesn't mean anything.  A a developer doesn't owe me anything.  I am not entitled to have the games I want.  

Anybody who buys a product without researching, that is their problem.  Researching takes less than 2 minutes and can be done on a phone.

This has been a thing since time inmemoriam. people have always bought into bad practices and bad products for centuries and it hasn't changed, so what exactly is your point to all of this?. 


I am talking about a product you and I paid for, with what was advertised not being a reality, but you seem to shrug all of this off in favour of the dev/studio/publisher and CEO.

Casuals aren't going to research. You are 41yrs old, older than me and yet you do not understand that not everyone is going to put the time of day into researching everything they buy into.



Step right up come on in, feel the buzz in your veins, I'm like an chemical electrical right into your brain and I'm the one who killed the Radio, soon you'll all see

So pay up motherfuckers you belong to "V"

Chazore said:
Chrkeller said:

Exactly.  People are buying it.  Developers are selling products that people clearly want.  Just because I don't like them, well that doesn't mean anything.  A a developer doesn't owe me anything.  I am not entitled to have the games I want.  

Anybody who buys a product without researching, that is their problem.  Researching takes less than 2 minutes and can be done on a phone.

This has been a thing since time inmemoriam. people have always bought into bad practices and bad products for centuries and it hasn't changed, so what exactly is your point to all of this?. 


I am talking about a product you and I paid for, with what was advertised not being a reality, but you seem to shrug all of this off in favour of the dev/studio/publisher and CEO.

Casuals aren't going to research. You are 41yrs old, older than me and yet you do not understand that not everyone is going to put the time of day into researching everything they buy into.

My point is don't blame developers for selling products that people buy.  Business is business.

I haven't bought any game, ever, that wasn't as advertised.  I wait for reviews, read some forum impressions and make a decison.  I own hundreds of games...  there isn't a single game I own that has any 'pay to win' BS.  I'm doing my part.

And anybody who buys a product via being too lazy to do 2 minutes of research gets what they get.

My simple message is this.  anybody who owns a 'pay to win' game is part of the problem.  Consumers dictate the market.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 19 July 2022

Chrkeller said:

My point is don't blame developers for selling products that people buy.  Business is business.

I haven't bought any game, ever, that wasn't as advertised.  I wait for reviews, read some forum impressions and make a decison.  I own hundreds of games...  there isn't a single game I own that has any 'pay to win' BS.  I'm doing my part.

And anybody who buys a product via being too lazy to do 2 minutes of research gets what they get.

My simple message is this.  anybody who owns a 'pay to win' game is part of the problem.  Consumers dictate the market.  

So you're saying we should excuse bad practices and instead just blame the customer instead, like the whole time?.

Just because you haven't bought into anything bad doesn't make life better for all. You aren't teaching anyone here with that advice, because I just told you the other day that there are plenty of folks out there who do not have the time of day to go skimming through reviews to see if something isn't riddled with shit.

You know what would make that less of a problem though?, devs and CEO's not putting in shit practices to begin with. 

You saw what happened with the video game crash, that wasn't the consumers fault, that was entirely on the devs and studios refusing to read the room.

You become a part of that same problem when you sit idly by going "told ya so", instead of taking the time out of your day to actively teach people to avoid such things and to also voice concern, which is why we see customers having these outbursts, because unlike you, some of them are sick of seeing it permeate throughout the industry.

I don't think you've thought this advice of yours through enough, because you're telling me that it's a one way street, when it clearly is not, otherwise life would be a living shithole if it truly was a one way street for everything by that logic. 

Last edited by Chazore - on 19 July 2022

Step right up come on in, feel the buzz in your veins, I'm like an chemical electrical right into your brain and I'm the one who killed the Radio, soon you'll all see

So pay up motherfuckers you belong to "V"

Chazore said:
Chrkeller said:

My point is don't blame developers for selling products that people buy.  Business is business.

I haven't bought any game, ever, that wasn't as advertised.  I wait for reviews, read some forum impressions and make a decison.  I own hundreds of games...  there isn't a single game I own that has any 'pay to win' BS.  I'm doing my part.

And anybody who buys a product via being too lazy to do 2 minutes of research gets what they get.

My simple message is this.  anybody who owns a 'pay to win' game is part of the problem.  Consumers dictate the market.  

So you're saying we should excuse bad practices and instead just blame the customer instead, like the whole time?.

Just because you haven't bought into anything bad doesn't make life better for all. You aren't teaching anyone here with that advice, because I just told you the other day that there are plenty of folks out there who do not have the time of day to go skimming through reviews to see if something isn't riddled with shit.

You know what would make that less of a problem though?, devs and CEO's not putting in shit practices to begin with. 

You saw what happened with the video game crash, that wasn't the consumers fault, that was entirely on the devs and studios refusing to read the room.

You become a part of that same problem when you sit idly by going "told ya so", instead of taking the time out of your day to actively teach people to avoid such things and to also voice concern, which is why we see customers having these outbursts, because unlike you, some of them are sick of seeing it permeate throughout the industry.

I don't think you've thought this advice of yours through enough, because you're telling me that it's a one way street, when it clearly is not, otherwise life would be a living shithole if it truly was a one way street for everything by that logic. 

Yeah, pretty much.  It is called economics.  Companies make products people want.  If something is selling it is because people want it.  While I may not want it, perhaps you don't either, that doesn't mean somebody else doesn't.  It isn't my place to act toxic and force a market to focus only on my wants.  

As an example if people truly hate lootboxes and MTX...  buy Nintendo (or Indie games).  Let the market know what is acceptable and what isn't with your wallet.  Companies follow money, full stop.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 19 July 2022