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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Gamers can be toxic to devs and vice versa

Chrkeller said:
Chazore said:

So you're saying we should excuse bad practices and instead just blame the customer instead, like the whole time?.

Just because you haven't bought into anything bad doesn't make life better for all. You aren't teaching anyone here with that advice, because I just told you the other day that there are plenty of folks out there who do not have the time of day to go skimming through reviews to see if something isn't riddled with shit.

You know what would make that less of a problem though?, devs and CEO's not putting in shit practices to begin with. 

You saw what happened with the video game crash, that wasn't the consumers fault, that was entirely on the devs and studios refusing to read the room.

You become a part of that same problem when you sit idly by going "told ya so", instead of taking the time out of your day to actively teach people to avoid such things and to also voice concern, which is why we see customers having these outbursts, because unlike you, some of them are sick of seeing it permeate throughout the industry.

I don't think you've thought this advice of yours through enough, because you're telling me that it's a one way street, when it clearly is not, otherwise life would be a living shithole if it truly was a one way street for everything by that logic. 

Yeah, pretty much.  It is called economics.  Companies make products people want.  If something is selling it is because people want it.  While I may not want it, perhaps you don't either, that doesn't mean somebody else doesn't.  It isn't my place to act toxic and force a market to focus only on my wants.  

As an example if people truly hate lootboxes and MTX...  buy Nintendo (or Indie games).  Let the market know what is acceptable and what isn't with your wallet.  Companies follow money, full stop.  

Except Nintendo ends up using all these as well and defended. Amibo locked DLC for me is something that no one else would get away with.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
DonFerrari said:
Chrkeller said:

Yeah, pretty much.  It is called economics.  Companies make products people want.  If something is selling it is because people want it.  While I may not want it, perhaps you don't either, that doesn't mean somebody else doesn't.  It isn't my place to act toxic and force a market to focus only on my wants.  

As an example if people truly hate lootboxes and MTX...  buy Nintendo (or Indie games).  Let the market know what is acceptable and what isn't with your wallet.  Companies follow money, full stop.  

Except Nintendo ends up using all these as well and defended. Amibo locked DLC for me is something that no one else would get away with.

Nintendo uses lootboxes and MTX???  I own 30 switch games....  I can't think of any.  Perhaps I am missing something.  I don't own any amibo's either, can't say I had any issues with the games I own.  I'm not sure what you are referencing.  



Chrkeller said:

Yeah, pretty much.  It is called economics.  Companies make products people want.  If something is selling it is because people want it.  While I may not want it, perhaps you don't either, that doesn't mean somebody else doesn't.  It isn't my place to act toxic and force a market to focus only on my wants.  

As an example if people truly hate lootboxes and MTX...  buy Nintendo (or Indie games).  Let the market know what is acceptable and what isn't with your wallet.  Companies follow money, full stop.  

Then really you are a part of the problem if you feel it's fine to offload onto customers, calling them stupid, shitting all over them and white knighting CEO's who make the scummy decisions. 

It doesn't matter what people want, it's the principle and intentional actions behind it, but I feel like that's fallen completely on your deaf ears.

It's like you can see something bad happening around you, and though you do not participate in that void, you are still more than able to call that out for what it is, instead of blocking your ears and yammering about "don't like it, don't buy it", because we know that advice doesn't completely work out unless you are of the higher number.

Bad shit can still exist and people cannot always care, and that's what I am trying to get at here, but you seem to want to excuse this willingly in order to torch another group, in order to benefit the group who are making the bad choices to begin with.

Nintendo is not a paragon of hope vs Lootboxes, so I have no idea where you're getting that from. Nintendo are the ones who ruled with a fucking iron fist in the 80's and partially the 90's. There have been stories from devs and customers alike back then, about their actions and poor decisions.

Companies always follow money, because that's what everyone needs in order to survive, it's been a known concept for countless centuries. 

I've been wasting my time trying to get you to notice that this industry is a two way street, and you're gawking back at me with "it's all in economics", when it bloody well isn't, otherwise, why the fuck are devs and CEO's fired and lambasted for making bad decisions and speaking like shitlords publicly?, like has that ever once crossed your mind?. 

The fact you want to defend those at the top for just being greedy or scummy makes me question your general ethics viewpoint.



Step right up come on in, feel the buzz in your veins, I'm like an chemical electrical right into your brain and I'm the one who killed the Radio, soon you'll all see

So pay up motherfuckers you belong to "V"

Chazore said:
Chrkeller said:

Yeah, pretty much.  It is called economics.  Companies make products people want.  If something is selling it is because people want it.  While I may not want it, perhaps you don't either, that doesn't mean somebody else doesn't.  It isn't my place to act toxic and force a market to focus only on my wants.  

As an example if people truly hate lootboxes and MTX...  buy Nintendo (or Indie games).  Let the market know what is acceptable and what isn't with your wallet.  Companies follow money, full stop.  

Then really you are a part of the problem if you feel it's fine to offload onto customers, calling them stupid, shitting all over them and white knighting CEO's who make the scummy decisions. 

It doesn't matter what people want, it's the principle and intentional actions behind it, but I feel like that's fallen completely on your deaf ears.

It's like you can see something bad happening around you, and though you do not participate in that void, you are still more than able to call that out for what it is, instead of blocking your ears and yammering about "don't like it, don't buy it", because we know that advice doesn't completely work out unless you are of the higher number.

Bad shit can still exist and people cannot always care, and that's what I am trying to get at here, but you seem to want to excuse this willingly in order to torch another group, in order to benefit the group who are making the bad choices to begin with.

Nintendo is not a paragon of hope vs Lootboxes, so I have no idea where you're getting that from. Nintendo are the ones who ruled with a fucking iron fist in the 80's and partially the 90's. There have been stories from devs and customers alike back then, about their actions and poor decisions.

Companies always follow money, because that's what everyone needs in order to survive, it's been a known concept for countless centuries. 

I've been wasting my time trying to get you to notice that this industry is a two way street, and you're gawking back at me with "it's all in economics", when it bloody well isn't, otherwise, why the fuck are devs and CEO's fired and lambasted for making bad decisions and speaking like shitlords publicly?, like has that ever once crossed your mind?. 

The fact you want to defend those at the top for just being greedy or scummy makes me question your general ethics viewpoint.

Lol, it is just economics.  But it sounds like we will have to agree to disagree.  For me a see a bunch of gamers buying product A while complaining about product A....  that is like me complaining about my weight while eating a large pizza + drinking a case of beer.  



Chrkeller said:

Lol, it is just economics.  But it sounds like we will have to agree to disagree.  For me a see a bunch of gamers buying product A while complaining about product A....  that is like me complaining about my weight while eating a large pizza + drinking a case of beer.  

I see folks not buying product A and still taking issue with it, especially when they know it's a bad practice.

it's just extremely weird to me how by your logic, there is no bad practices, there is nothing bad in the industry and that it's all the consumers fault.

You can still workout harder while eating Pizza, you know?. Or try a different diet. There's multiple ways to sort out your weight, but in gaming it's a lot harder, because me not buying into a game riddled with MT's does not fix the problem. It's teaching ppl that helps more than me not buying into one game, and that's what I was trying to get at, but at the same time trying to show to you that this industry, like many others, are two-way streets. 



Step right up come on in, feel the buzz in your veins, I'm like an chemical electrical right into your brain and I'm the one who killed the Radio, soon you'll all see

So pay up motherfuckers you belong to "V"

Around the Network
Chazore said:
Chrkeller said:

Lol, it is just economics.  But it sounds like we will have to agree to disagree.  For me a see a bunch of gamers buying product A while complaining about product A....  that is like me complaining about my weight while eating a large pizza + drinking a case of beer.  

I see folks not buying product A and still taking issue with it, especially when they know it's a bad practice.

it's just extremely weird to me how by your logic, there is no bad practices, there is nothing bad in the industry and that it's all the consumers fault.

You can still workout harder while eating Pizza, you know?. Or try a different diet. There's multiple ways to sort out your weight, but in gaming it's a lot harder, because me not buying into a game riddled with MT's does not fix the problem. It's teaching ppl that helps more than me not buying into one game, and that's what I was trying to get at, but at the same time trying to show to you that this industry, like many others, are two-way streets. 

Like I said we will have to agree to disagree.  I stand by my postion under the basis that consumers grossly underestimate their power and influence on the marketplace.  Gamers are not helpless victims.  



Chrkeller said:
DonFerrari said:

Except Nintendo ends up using all these as well and defended. Amibo locked DLC for me is something that no one else would get away with.

Nintendo uses lootboxes and MTX???  I own 30 switch games....  I can't think of any.  Perhaps I am missing something.  I don't own any amibo's either, can't say I had any issues with the games I own.  I'm not sure what you are referencing.  

So you don't remember how much Nintendo fans bashed patches and DLCs until Nintendo started doing them? Or remasters/remakes?

As soon as Nintendo start doing lootboxes and MTX you can bet there will be a lot of defense going on in VGC.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
Chrkeller said:

Nintendo uses lootboxes and MTX???  I own 30 switch games....  I can't think of any.  Perhaps I am missing something.  I don't own any amibo's either, can't say I had any issues with the games I own.  I'm not sure what you are referencing.  

So you don't remember how much Nintendo fans bashed patches and DLCs until Nintendo started doing them? Or remasters/remakes?

As soon as Nintendo start doing lootboxes and MTX you can bet there will be a lot of defense going on in VGC.

So to answer the question I asked, Nintendo in fact doesn't currently do lootboxes and MTX.  Thanks, that was my point.  

For the record I happily bash putting content behind Amibos.  I happily bash having to pay for online, same as I do for Sony and MS.  If Nintendo moves to lootboxes and MTX, I will bash them and STOP buying their products.

*I also do NOT support their online program with my money nor do I buy Amibos.  

So I am consistent, thus have zero idea what your point is.  

And circling back to the larger point.  Nintendo doesn't do lootboxes.  And Nintendo isn't alone.  There are PLENTY of options for non lootbox games.  Thousands in fact.  Gamers do NOT have to support lootboxes, they are electing to support lootboxes.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 20 July 2022

Chrkeller said:
DonFerrari said:

So you don't remember how much Nintendo fans bashed patches and DLCs until Nintendo started doing them? Or remasters/remakes?

As soon as Nintendo start doing lootboxes and MTX you can bet there will be a lot of defense going on in VGC.

So to answer the question I asked, Nintendo in fact doesn't currently do lootboxes and MTX.  Thanks, that was my point.  

For the record I happily bash putting content behind Amibos.  I happily bash having to pay for online, same as I do for Sony and MS.  If Nintendo moves to lootboxes and MTX, I will bash them and STOP buying their products.

*I also do NOT support their online program with my money nor do I buy Amibos.  

So I am consistent, thus have zero idea what your point is.  

And circling back to the larger point.  Nintendo doesn't do lootboxes.  And Nintendo isn't alone.  There are PLENTY of options for non lootbox games.  Thousands in fact.  Gamers do NOT have to support lootboxes, they are electing to support lootboxes.

My point was that Nintendo isn't a haven. They are most likely late to the party as they were for updates, DLC, MP then paid MP, etc. And they do have games on smartphone that have lootboxes and MTX in case you don't know.

But sure I agree gamers elect to support the bad practices be it by not caring, fomo or whatever. Myself I don't buy dlc and other things, my plus is for the free games and discounts since I also don't play online.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
Chrkeller said:

So to answer the question I asked, Nintendo in fact doesn't currently do lootboxes and MTX.  Thanks, that was my point.  

For the record I happily bash putting content behind Amibos.  I happily bash having to pay for online, same as I do for Sony and MS.  If Nintendo moves to lootboxes and MTX, I will bash them and STOP buying their products.

*I also do NOT support their online program with my money nor do I buy Amibos.  

So I am consistent, thus have zero idea what your point is.  

And circling back to the larger point.  Nintendo doesn't do lootboxes.  And Nintendo isn't alone.  There are PLENTY of options for non lootbox games.  Thousands in fact.  Gamers do NOT have to support lootboxes, they are electing to support lootboxes.

My point was that Nintendo isn't a haven. They are most likely late to the party as they were for updates, DLC, MP then paid MP, etc. And they do have games on smartphone that have lootboxes and MTX in case you don't know.

But sure I agree gamers elect to support the bad practices be it by not caring, fomo or whatever. Myself I don't buy dlc and other things, my plus is for the free games and discounts since I also don't play online.

Fair enough and I believe we are aligned.  I wasn't trying to paint Nintendo as perfect, but rather was saying there are plenty of MTX and lootbox free games.  I did mention Indie games as well.  I have zero issue (across Nintendo, Sony and MS) finding great games that lack MTX and lootboxes.  I don't play mobile games, but I thought it was 'free' but than charged money to unlock the full game.  Even those I don't think have MTX and lootboxes.  But I don't care, because I don't play them anyway.

And applaud your stance for not supporting poor practices.  If more gamers did as such, these practices would go away.