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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Nintendo's Success Is Your Greatest Enemy!

Mandalore76 said:

Not at all sure where you got "best fandom in the entire games industry" out of my post, since I specifically detailed how the majority of even Nintendo gamers passed on the Wii U.  

Also, you don't need a screwdriver to spray contact cleaner into the thumbstick.  You just spray it around the base, and the contact cleaner gets in there the same way skin/debris does.  Anyway, if what worked for my issue isn't relevant to yours, all right then.

I've never had a drift issue with another console's controllers before either.  But here's a list of hardware issues that I did personally experience with other consoles that I never experienced across 7 generations of Nintendo hardware:

Console couldn't read discs on Day One of console purchase, fresh out of the box from retail (original PlayStation)

Sound issues from A/V Composite cable that came with system (PS2)

Power button failure that eventually led to system failure (original XBox)

Red Ring of Death (XBox 360)

Power Brick Failure (XBox One)

To be clear though, I don't excuse the Joycon drift as a major issue, as I am someone who has been equally frustrated by it whenever it rears its ugly head as well.  I also don't agree with their response to every situation either.  Like their position that "dead pixels" on the original Switch's LCD screens are a common characteristic of LCD screens, and therefore not considered a defect.  I'd be as furious as the next person if I got a Switch with dead pixels on the screen and Nintendo didn't offer a free replacement.

It's just insanely annoying that I have to even do this...twice, when they could have easily remedied this issue with allowing me to go into my local GAME store and get a refund months later.

The fact that they didn't do this WW, means they are complacent enough to ignore and let it slide, without having to open their own wallet, because they know I went out and bought a second set, they know I'm more than able to buy a third and 4th set, and this is why they get away with it. 

I just wish they'd actually break open their own wallet, instead of me having to break open my own, I'm clearly not rolling in millions like they are.


All this gen has done for me is present me with less games to be interested in, higher price tags, paid for online, and faulty gamepads. It's gotten me to a point where I'm wanting to go for a Deck and never look back, because Nintendo was always my one go-to for handhelds and now that's just not in the cards anymore. 

Last edited by Chazore - on 28 July 2022

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Mandalore76 said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

I  agree with your post, but I think you tried too hard here. Why should we care for how a company handle their directors when business are doing bad? They could be fired if the sales are bombing and I personally wouldn't be really concerned. Or they could do nothing and keep the same staff, which I wouldn't care either  

I only included it, because it is a contradiction of the sentiment that Nintendo wouldn't care if a console flops or succeeds as long as enough money flows to the top of the company.  Corporate greed exists in one form or another in all companies, but here was a not often seen case of top tier executives taking a failure personally rather than laying-off lower level employees to protect their bottom line.

Nintendo had lay offs during Wii U days, at least from what I remember from he thread where some fun update the number of employees. I see your point now, better reducing executives wages than firing baseline.

I agree, but this seems to me as the standard way to deal with bad financial result for tech companies. I'm a software developer and I'm following thr current layoffs trend happening in IT industry, Netflix did something similar to Nintendo and they weren't the only one. I'll try my best to explain my reasoning with my poor English 

Rememeber Nintendo is a company with a few thousand of employees and most of them are engineers and software developers. You can't fire them and expect your operation to keep going as usual. For a company like Nintendo lay off development teams means the strategy was to release less games, delay hardware releases or closing side projects.  

So Nintendo either accepted the losses and keep everyone working as usual hoping this to be just a phase and they could recover in future 

Or they start firing teams, closing projects and financing less games, reducing its size and accepting they would need a more humble start for their next hardware(and then starting growing again)

Nintendo picking first tells me more about how them being resilient (and self assured, in a good sense), which is nice imo but doesn't make them stand out significantly compared to other tec companies 

Off topic, how did Sony handled their executive team during the dark PS3 days? I'm asking because even if they suffered massive losses (much worse than Nintendo's during Wii U) Sony kept supporting the system for as much as they could and even started baking their development teams with nothing but hope they would succeed... and they did, that's when Sony first party output started to have true relevance



Chrkeller said:

Joy cons have been a problem for me too. Problem is I'm having same issues with drift with the ps5 controller.

And that major media is more complacent to Sony than Nintendo. 

The problem here is core market wants to say how other people want to play. Companies' growth aways a problem since Industrial Age. After tapping all market demand the only way to grow is to bring former players and new players to the platform. Ubris of companies reflects this decision, but companies' success not always translate into their demise 



Kakadu18 said:

There is no mob here. You made that nonsense up. Your non-arguments are just that terrible. And your responses in this thread have been infinitely worse.

It was strangely fortuitous timing that someone disagreed with me on my Stray review (separate thread post incoming), but it's perfect for people like you: a shining example of how adults are supposed to disagree on something.  I give you an example of adults disagreeing like adults, not whatever this thread was:

JWeinCom said:
ZyroXZ2 said:

If you lumped yourself in with that, that's on you.  I would have figured it was pretty obvious who the bad actors were, so even though I've got nothing against you (and was pretty clear in replies to you that I was having normal discourse with you) or really anyone else that doesn't do obvious personal attacks or straight up denigrates me, know that if you decide to reply, I'll still discuss it with you.

curl-6 said:

We don't need to convince each other, it's okay to have different experiences and opinions of a given system or company, and I actually find it enjoyable to talk about, so thanks for the discussion.

I notice you stopped quoting me here, but to echo my statement above, I don't see a need for this to be adversarial.

I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean I hold anything against you or want you to go away or shut up. Heck, this thread is one of the most interesting ones the forum has seen in recent weeks to be honest, its been a while since we had some good old fashioned debate going on.

I may be a Nintendo fan, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with people criticizing them. I may post a rebuttal, but that's not a demand that you see things my way. 

You're fine, I clearly said earlier in this thread I recognize you're not emotionally thrashing your replies.  It's funny because I have a video that's been planned for a month or so that will come months from now, but I discuss the core of "gamer" social aptitude, or often the lack thereof.  There's a reason most of the general public continues to perceive "gamers" a certain way, and while I clearly know it's not everyone that fits the stereotype, there's a core issue with how "gamers" handle socializing over videogames that is widerspread than most other communities.

I've been on a LOT of forums over the years: cars, tech, etc. and even though every forum has the usual nutjobs, gaming somehow has them in far higher relative numbers.  Have I had disputes over cars?  Yup.  Have I had disputes over sports or tech?  Absolutely.  But when it happens in gaming, there's some serious loss of objectivity that it's just videogames at the end of the day, and instead there's this lack of ability to handle social adversity.  Instead, "gamers" almost always use some form of extreme prejudice against a person, whether it's their console of choice, their criticisms, and relate it to who they are as a person.  I've watched dudes argue over sports, and it never looks like dudes arguing over videogames.  In fact, two dudes arguing over sports highly likely have more respect for each other than two dudes arguing over videogames.

For the record, I recall you and I have had disagreements before, but I think you're also an example of where I don't make it personal unless someone else does.  We can disagree all day, and I've still got no beef with you.  But if it gets personal, then I just jump right into the mud with them lol

JWeinCom said:

c

I'm presuming you have chosen to lump yourself in with the other guy above and ignore me?  I can't tell, these quote trees got so massive...  Whatever it is, if you can't determine who the obvious ones are and who aren't, I'm not about to sit here and type out usernames

Chyeaaa, there's that reach to create meaning where there isn't any.  But just in case it wasn't clear to you: agreement and disagreement are not based on numbers or right/wrong for sane minded people.  The statement about the mob is that many people use or need numbers to feel safe in their thoughts, and that makes it VERY hard for that person to ever see otherwise.  It's called "mob mentality" because it represents an inability for a large number of people to think independently.  Now if you're out here thinking everyone disagrees with me, that's clearly not the case...

psychicscubadiver said:

Oh, I haven't watched your video. It's clickbait and doesn't deserve the engagement.

I have been following this thread and it's amusing to see you spin and deflect without addressing actual criticisms. Like the 'we outnumber him so we're winning' which is a incredible strawman of my joke about how you're interacting with criticism. Only an idiot thinks you can 'win' a forum argument.

And implying 'all you guys are just disagreeing because you're fanboys' is silly. I'd say the same if you made these claims about any console maker. 

But do I agree with you on one thing. It is probably best to ignore you since you're either being deliberately obtuse to get hate-views or just that bone-headed.

Yes, I know you didn't watch it, it was kind of obvious.  You're part of the mob, in case anyone wanted me to point someone out lmfao...  Because if you thought for yourself, you'd have something actually useful to disagree with and present some information on the contrary, but instead you just have to ride off what you perceive as things "everyone else" is thinking and go with it.  You have nothing to say on your own because you don't actually know what was said, but here you are riding along with the mob.

I mean, sheesh, talk about bone-headed... lol

To some extent, there is the presence of Nintendo fans who expect better.  But they clearly aren't in healthy enough numbers to make any real difference, hence the "Nintendo will do whatever they want anyway" thing.  That's because Nintendo follows the numbers, and so they work in ways that are impersonal because they're so big that they can.  That's also kind of the underlying point, here: there ISN'T enough criticism because the money keeps flowing from people who love everything Nintendo.

And that, of course, is the real criticism that I have a tough time arguing when people tell me, "okay, you say all this, yet here you are buying stuff, too".  I think that's part of why I even keep doing the channel: if I'm going to feed the machine, I'm going to make my decisions public so that someone else can make a more informed decision.  Of course, many people try to do that with "user reviews", but those are also... often... well, quite terrible and unreliable in gaming.  That's somewhat proven in this thread why user reviews are so useless: there's often a mob mentality with it which is why you see so many 10s or 0s because people are just out to attack or defend and lack the core logic to provide proper explanation or critique.  Instead, it becomes personal, and when it's personal, it becomes emotional, and when it's emotional, it becomes extremes lol

Had something typed out, but decided I didn't want to get involved any further, so I deleted it and it won't let you leave it empty, hence c.

I don't blame you, but for the record: had it just been a continuation of proper debate, I've demonstrated many times I have no issue with that lol

curl-6 said:
ZyroXZ2 said:

You're fine, I clearly said earlier in this thread I recognize you're not emotionally thrashing your replies.  It's funny because I have a video that's been planned for a month or so that will come months from now, but I discuss the core of "gamer" social aptitude, or often the lack thereof.  There's a reason most of the general public continues to perceive "gamers" a certain way, and while I clearly know it's not everyone that fits the stereotype, there's a core issue with how "gamers" handle socializing over videogames that is widerspread than most other communities.

I've been on a LOT of forums over the years: cars, tech, etc. and even though every forum has the usual nutjobs, gaming somehow has them in far higher relative numbers.  Have I had disputes over cars?  Yup.  Have I had disputes over sports or tech?  Absolutely.  But when it happens in gaming, there's some serious loss of objectivity that it's just videogames at the end of the day, and instead there's this lack of ability to handle social adversity.  Instead, "gamers" almost always use some form of extreme prejudice against a person, whether it's their console of choice, their criticisms, and relate it to who they are as a person.  I've watched dudes argue over sports, and it never looks like dudes arguing over videogames.  In fact, two dudes arguing over sports highly likely have more respect for each other than two dudes arguing over videogames.

For the record, I recall you and I have had disagreements before, but I think you're also an example of where I don't make it personal unless someone else does.  We can disagree all day, and I've still got no beef with you.  But if it gets personal, then I just jump right into the mud with them lol

curl-6 said:

Also, anyone who is familiar with the Nintendo fanbase know that nobody criticizes Nintendo more than their ardent fans.
Look at the response to games like Metroid Prime Federation Force or Animal Crossing Amiibo Festival, where petitions to have them canceled amassed tens of thousands of signatures.
The notion that the fanbase will defend anything they do to the death is quite unrealistic.

It's not a matter of fans disagreeing on principal, it's simply that Nintendo's success does indeed tangibly benefit us in more ways than it harms us.

To some extent, there is the presence of Nintendo fans who expect better.  But they clearly aren't in healthy enough numbers to make any real difference, hence the "Nintendo will do whatever they want anyway" thing.  That's because Nintendo follows the numbers, and so they work in ways that are impersonal because they're so big that they can.  That's also kind of the underlying point, here: there ISN'T enough criticism because the money keeps flowing from people who love everything Nintendo.

And that, of course, is the real criticism that I have a tough time arguing when people tell me, "okay, you say all this, yet here you are buying stuff, too".  I think that's part of why I even keep doing the channel: if I'm going to feed the machine, I'm going to make my decisions public so that someone else can make a more informed decision.  Of course, many people try to do that with "user reviews", but those are also... often... well, quite terrible and unreliable in gaming.  That's somewhat proven in this thread why user reviews are so useless: there's often a mob mentality with it which is why you see so many 10s or 0s because people are just out to attack or defend and lack the core logic to provide proper explanation or critique.  Instead, it becomes personal, and when it's personal, it becomes emotional, and when it's emotional, it becomes extremes lol

When Nintendo fucks up, people generally pass on their systems to a sufficient degree that they have to change course; see the Wii U, Virtual Boy, or Gamecube for example. So it's not like they can do whatever they want, the market will clearly punish them if they don't offer a good enough proposition.

As with any company, there are some times when stuff I don't like still succeeds, but all I can do is vote with my wallet. I didn't buy games like 1-2 Switch or ARMS or the Mario sports games for example because I didn't like what they were offering.

After the long dry years of the Wii U though, where the lack of sales meant terrible droughts and a severe lack of third party software, I personally find owning a highly successful Nintendo system again to be a big relief. I haven't finished Monster Hunter Rise Sunbreak yet or even started FIST Forged In Shadow Torch, and the next few months are about to bombard me with Xenoblade 3, Splatoon 3, Nier Automata, and Bayonetta 3. I haven't been this happy as gamer since... far out, 2010 I think.

This is kind of the point... When they are doing bad, they rethink their efforts in ways that are tangible.  You likely have the Wii U to thank for Bayonetta as I don't think they would have even taken on that project had they not felt they needed to bolster their offerings.  It's in desperation that corporate execs start thinking about how to change things for the better because they WANT to turn things around.  They did, except just like the Wii days, the success leads to signs of *dun dun dun* greed, laziness, cornering the market, etc.  We're almost talking in circles, now lmfao

I mean, let's not forget Nintendo decided to generate false scarcity by limiting the release of Super Mario 3D All Stars... It was 2021, why in the HELL would they make it a limited release (notwithstanding that it was just simple ports rather than remasters).  And even if they wanted to stop physical production, there was no reason to stop digital sales.

Again, I didn't have time in the video to go through everything, but if you're watching closely, they're doing some seriously "because we can" stuff...  You're happy to enjoy the good things, and I never said there wasn't anything good, but I'm watching out for the signs that Nintendo is starting to get cocky, which they absolutely are because... full circle here we go... SUCCESS!

Mandalore76 said:
Chazore said:

The WIi U was designed to make bank even if they fucked up, which they did end up getting both in the end. They fucked up, but they still managed to make bank on the system, enough to consider it a setback, but not a "oh shit we've made no money from the system at all this entire gen", so they still got something out of it instead of absolute "you fucked up, now you're gonna suffer the consumer wrath" style of punishment they should have gotten. Despite that setback, they were still rewarded enough to make money back on the system they didn't push hard enough on, which tells me that there was a decent size of the fanbase to help them get that far, instead of hardly any at all. 

Let's take babylon's fall for example, yes that's a game and not a system, but because of the way it was designed to be, and the lack of marketing, and exclusivity shit, it sold like utter crap and now has less players than it did on day/week one. That's how a game/system should be punished, or hell, the recent crap going down with VR chat has tons of folks requesting refunds and leaving negative reviews. That's basically become a big PR nightmare for VRChat, while Nintendo still got to slide by with the Wii U and make bank and still not have to worry all that much about PR, because they brought out the Switch.

Point is, the fans helped them get by, they just weren't punished hard enough, and with the Switch it's all magically water under the bridge, despite the joycon issue still looming over the system (and me having a 2nd pair busted, with Nintendo asking for another £70 from me if I ever want to play the system I bought ever again). 

You may have not bought much into the Wii U, but others did. You have to remember that one purchase doesn't make for a a greater snowball effect, it takes bigger numbers for a greater effect to happen. 

First, Nintendo didn't "make bank" with the Wii U.  Nintendo posted its first losses in over 3 decades during the transition from Wii to Wii U.

Nintendo Records $531.1 Million Annual Loss- 4/26/2012

Nintendo Earnings Disappoint As Wii U Sales Continue To Fall - 7/31/2013

Nintendo posts $456 million annual operating loss - 5/7/2014

Nintendo suffers huge first-quarter loss as Wii U and 3DS sales tumble- 7/27/2016

As for the "fans let them get by" statement, some people enjoyed the Wii U as a console, myself included.  The Gamepad, maligned as it was by the masses, actually did bring innovative gameplay with it.  In Lego City, when an npc character would call Chase McCain's communicator, you would see that characters face talking to you on the Gamepad, and their voice would come through the Gamepad's speakers.  That's a higher level of immersion than an onscreen popup as how it has to be handled in other games on other consoles.  In Madden 13, you can draw-up Hot Routes at the Line of Scrimmage on offense and defense.  This added a whole new ease of changing plays on the fly that would have required multiple button presses and predetermined routes to achieve in other Madden games on other consoles.  I continued playing this version of Madden for years afterwards due to this feature.  Meanwhile, every year, you hear complaints from Madden fans about the lack of innovation from each successive Madden game on other consoles.  These are just a few gameplay examples that immediately come to mind.  There were quality of life features as well.  Going from typing on the virtual keyboard of the Wii U gamepad to having to manually click to each letter of every word of every sentence on another consoles controller feels like a massive step backwards.  The Wii U gamepad became my goto for both YouTube and Google, because of how much easier they were to navigate than on other consoles.  So, yeah, the Wii U had positive things going for it that the majority of gamers overlooked.  That doesn't make all Wii U owners blind Nintendo fans who buy anything Nintendo puts in front of them.

Having said that, Nintendo absolutely didn't "get a pass from Nintendo fans" through that generation.  The much higher sales Wii U software have enjoyed as Switch releases prove that a very large number of gamers indeed held back their money from buying a system and games they otherwise would have purchased and enjoyed.

Also, how many other console manufacturers do you see personally take pay cuts at the executive level in response to the negative reception of their hardware?

Iwata And Miyamoto Both Take Pay Cuts In Response To Nintendo's Poor Financial Results- 1/29/2014

"It has been revealed that Nintendo president Satoru Iwata will be taking a 50 percent pay reduction following Nintendo's recent financial results.

He's not the only one taking a cut; legendary game designer Shigeru Miyamoto will see his wage slashed by 30 percent, as will fellow Nintendo veteran Genyo Takeda. The seven other members of the company's board will each shoulder a 20 percent reduction.

The news comes after Nintendo issued warnings of further financial losses in the future, attributed to the poor commercial performance of the Wii U console. Nintendo expects to make a loss in Q4 of 2014."

*Regarding your joycons, have you tried spraying Deoxit into the thumbstick?  In most cases, it's a buildup of dead skin/debris that get inside the controller which causes the drift.  I still have my launch day Switch joycons, and I've probably sprayed them with Deoxit twice in 5 years, and it eliminated the drift for a long while both times.  I'm not dismissing the drift as a controller quality issue, mind you.  Just mentioning something that has worked for me as a speedy and cheap fix solution.

This is kind of it, though... You're making the point that during their time of struggle, you see far more interesting behavior come out of Nintendo.  I have no doubt that in order for those two games to use the Gamepad the way they did, Nintendo has to get involved (surely you recall many games did NOT make use of the Gamepad in any useful manner).  In fact, the irony was that really good use of the Gamepad came much later in the Wii U's life.

And of course, I and many others applauded Iwata's decision to take the pay cut.  This is part of why I even made a tribute video: Iwata was a bit of an anti-CEO in ways.  You watch his interviews and he really seems like he'd rather be making games than running the company, something I recall him even alluding to.  I think the Switch era would have been very different under him, tbh.  But even so, the Wii and DS were so successful that it was inevitable there would be laziness creeping in, something even a CEO can't control because he's not making the sole decisions across a company this big.  Enter the Wii U and 3DS, both factually doing worse than their predecessors, but showing off some Nintendo's brightest software bits.

I'm not saying the Wii U era was perfect, but it demonstrated a side of Nintendo that's healthier than now, despite the sales difference.

Mandalore76 said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

I  agree with your post, but I think you tried too hard here. Why should we care for how a company handle their directors when business are doing bad? They could be fired if the sales are bombing and I personally wouldn't be really concerned. Or they could do nothing and keep the same staff, which I wouldn't care either  

I only included it, because it is a contradiction of the sentiment that Nintendo wouldn't care if a console flops or succeeds as long as enough money flows to the top of the company.  Corporate greed exists in one form or another in all companies, but here was a not often seen case of top tier executives taking a failure personally rather than laying-off lower level employees to protect their bottom line.

Just responding to this, but in my previous quote lol

IcaroRibeiro said:
Mandalore76 said:

I only included it, because it is a contradiction of the sentiment that Nintendo wouldn't care if a console flops or succeeds as long as enough money flows to the top of the company.  Corporate greed exists in one form or another in all companies, but here was a not often seen case of top tier executives taking a failure personally rather than laying-off lower level employees to protect their bottom line.

Nintendo had lay offs during Wii U days, at least from what I remember from he thread where some fun update the number of employees. I see your point now, better reducing executives wages than firing baseline.

I agree, but this seems to me as the standard way to deal with bad financial result for tech companies. I'm a software developer and I'm following thr current layoffs trend happening in IT industry, Netflix did something similar to Nintendo and they weren't the only one. I'll try my best to explain my reasoning with my poor English 

Rememeber Nintendo is a company with a few thousand of employees and most of them are engineers and software developers. You can't fire them and expect your operation to keep going as usual. For a company like Nintendo lay off development teams means the strategy was to release less games, delay hardware releases or closing side projects.  

So Nintendo either accepted the losses and keep everyone working as usual hoping this to be just a phase and they could recover in future 

Or they start firing teams, closing projects and financing less games, reducing its size and accepting they would need a more humble start for their next hardware(and then starting growing again)

Nintendo picking first tells me more about how them being resilient (and self assured, in a good sense), which is nice imo but doesn't make them stand out significantly compared to other tec companies 

Off topic, how did Sony handled their executive team during the dark PS3 days? I'm asking because even if they suffered massive losses (much worse than Nintendo's during Wii U) Sony kept supporting the system for as much as they could and even started baking their development teams with nothing but hope they would succeed... and they did, that's when Sony first party output started to have true relevance

Actually, Xbox during the 360 days was the same.  Both the 360 and PS3 pushed sooo hard that both companies lost BILLIONS on them, but ended up pretty much changing the pace and expectations of console gaming entirely and even created a strong narrative battle about "exclusives".  This is also its own proof that when companies are struggling, they have a choice: to fight back or just die out.  Both Sony and Microsoft continued to push on AND compete with each other.  Companies struggling basically either leads to being better or dying off... which in and of itself is actually a healthy thing even IF we can all agree we DON'T want to see people losing jobs or going out of business (especially if you enjoy their products or services).

Microsoft obviously lost the exclusives battle (and consequently the Xbox One sold poorly), but is now trying to fight back on that front.  In their struggle, Game Pass was born.  So now we have yet to see how their exclusive lineup gets handled, because it's still pretty bad as it is lol



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ZyroXZ2 said:

You think they care about you? You think your name shows up when they sit down and do their jobs? No, no it does not. The bigger and more successful a company gets, the more they are your enemy!

No written version, it's a discussion video! And though it may fall on some deaf ears, here's hoping at least one person decides it's not worth simping for a big company... ever.

Who are you ?



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Chrkeller said:

Joy cons have been a problem for me too. Problem is I'm having same issues with drift with the ps5 controller.

My PS4 dualshock has drifting problems too (after only one year of use) and be mindful, while Joycon drift is annoying they can be solved with some cleaning. Dualshock drift is a nightmare because you need to open your controller and remove carefully almost all parts before cleaning, I watched a couple of videos and decided it was better to just buy another controller 

I honestly see no hope for this. Market leniency towards Nintendo unleashed this towards us. We are all doomed to keep buying low quality controllers every 2 years. I don't know why people don't address this as a severe problem but rage about completely optional MTX 



ZyroXZ2 said:

And of course, I and many others applauded Iwata's decision to take the pay cut.  This is part of why I even made a tribute video: Iwata was a bit of an anti-CEO in ways.  You watch his interviews and he really seems like he'd rather be making games than running the company, something I recall him even alluding to.  I think the Switch era would have been very different under him, tbh.  But even so, the Wii and DS were so successful that it was inevitable there would be laziness creeping in, something even a CEO can't control because he's not making the sole decisions across a company this big.  Enter the Wii U and 3DS, both factually doing worse than their predecessors, but showing off some Nintendo's brightest software bits.

How do you think it would've been very different?



Chazore said:
curl-6 said:

When Nintendo fucks up, people generally pass on their systems to a sufficient degree that they have to change course; see the Wii U, Virtual Boy, or Gamecube for example. So it's not like they can do whatever they want, the market will clearly punish them if they don't offer a good enough proposition.

As with any company, there are some times when stuff I don't like still succeeds, but all I can do is vote with my wallet. I didn't buy games like 1-2 Switch or ARMS or the Mario sports games for example because I didn't like what they were offering.

The WIi U was designed to make bank even if they fucked up, which they did end up getting both in the end. They fucked up, but they still managed to make bank on the system, enough to consider it a setback, but not a "oh shit we've made no money from the system at all this entire gen", so they still got something out of it instead of absolute "you fucked up, now you're gonna suffer the consumer wrath" style of punishment they should have gotten. Despite that setback, they were still rewarded enough to make money back on the system they didn't push hard enough on, which tells me that there was a decent size of the fanbase to help them get that far, instead of hardly any at all. 

Let's take babylon's fall for example, yes that's a game and not a system, but because of the way it was designed to be, and the lack of marketing, and exclusivity shit, it sold like utter crap and now has less players than it did on day/week one. That's how a game/system should be punished, or hell, the recent crap going down with VR chat has tons of folks requesting refunds and leaving negative reviews. That's basically become a big PR nightmare for VRChat, while Nintendo still got to slide by with the Wii U and make bank and still not have to worry all that much about PR, because they brought out the Switch.

Point is, the fans helped them get by, they just weren't punished hard enough, and with the Switch it's all magically water under the bridge, despite the joycon issue still looming over the system (and me having a 2nd pair busted, with Nintendo asking for another £70 from me if I ever want to play the system I bought ever again). 

You may have not bought much into the Wii U, but others did. You have to remember that one purchase doesn't make for a a greater snowball effect, it takes bigger numbers for a greater effect to happen. 

Not only are you wrong about Nintendo “making bank” during the Wii U era, as Mandalore pointed out, but you’re also conveniently forgetting that they also sold a little product called the 3DS in this time period which made up like 80% of their hardware/sales during the generation.

Without 3DS, Nintendo would have been in a really tough spot those years.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

ZyroXZ2 said:
Kakadu18 said:

There is no mob here. You made that nonsense up. Your non-arguments are just that terrible. And your responses in this thread have been infinitely worse.

It was strangely fortuitous timing that someone disagreed with me on my Stray review (separate thread post incoming), but it's perfect for people like you: a shining example of how adults are supposed to disagree on something.  I give you an example of adults disagreeing like adults, not whatever this thread was:

JWeinCom said:

Had something typed out, but decided I didn't want to get involved any further, so I deleted it and it won't let you leave it empty, hence c.

I don't blame you, but for the record: had it just been a continuation of proper debate, I've demonstrated many times I have no issue with that lol

curl-6 said:

When Nintendo fucks up, people generally pass on their systems to a sufficient degree that they have to change course; see the Wii U, Virtual Boy, or Gamecube for example. So it's not like they can do whatever they want, the market will clearly punish them if they don't offer a good enough proposition.

As with any company, there are some times when stuff I don't like still succeeds, but all I can do is vote with my wallet. I didn't buy games like 1-2 Switch or ARMS or the Mario sports games for example because I didn't like what they were offering.

After the long dry years of the Wii U though, where the lack of sales meant terrible droughts and a severe lack of third party software, I personally find owning a highly successful Nintendo system again to be a big relief. I haven't finished Monster Hunter Rise Sunbreak yet or even started FIST Forged In Shadow Torch, and the next few months are about to bombard me with Xenoblade 3, Splatoon 3, Nier Automata, and Bayonetta 3. I haven't been this happy as gamer since... far out, 2010 I think.

This is kind of the point... When they are doing bad, they rethink their efforts in ways that are tangible.  You likely have the Wii U to thank for Bayonetta as I don't think they would have even taken on that project had they not felt they needed to bolster their offerings.  It's in desperation that corporate execs start thinking about how to change things for the better because they WANT to turn things around.  They did, except just like the Wii days, the success leads to signs of *dun dun dun* greed, laziness, cornering the market, etc.  We're almost talking in circles, now lmfao

I mean, let's not forget Nintendo decided to generate false scarcity by limiting the release of Super Mario 3D All Stars... It was 2021, why in the HELL would they make it a limited release (notwithstanding that it was just simple ports rather than remasters).  And even if they wanted to stop physical production, there was no reason to stop digital sales.

Again, I didn't have time in the video to go through everything, but if you're watching closely, they're doing some seriously "because we can" stuff...  You're happy to enjoy the good things, and I never said there wasn't anything good, but I'm watching out for the signs that Nintendo is starting to get cocky, which they absolutely are because... full circle here we go... SUCCESS!

Mandalore76 said:

First, Nintendo didn't "make bank" with the Wii U.  Nintendo posted its first losses in over 3 decades during the transition from Wii to Wii U.

Nintendo Records $531.1 Million Annual Loss- 4/26/2012

Nintendo Earnings Disappoint As Wii U Sales Continue To Fall - 7/31/2013

Nintendo posts $456 million annual operating loss - 5/7/2014

Nintendo suffers huge first-quarter loss as Wii U and 3DS sales tumble- 7/27/2016

As for the "fans let them get by" statement, some people enjoyed the Wii U as a console, myself included.  The Gamepad, maligned as it was by the masses, actually did bring innovative gameplay with it.  In Lego City, when an npc character would call Chase McCain's communicator, you would see that characters face talking to you on the Gamepad, and their voice would come through the Gamepad's speakers.  That's a higher level of immersion than an onscreen popup as how it has to be handled in other games on other consoles.  In Madden 13, you can draw-up Hot Routes at the Line of Scrimmage on offense and defense.  This added a whole new ease of changing plays on the fly that would have required multiple button presses and predetermined routes to achieve in other Madden games on other consoles.  I continued playing this version of Madden for years afterwards due to this feature.  Meanwhile, every year, you hear complaints from Madden fans about the lack of innovation from each successive Madden game on other consoles.  These are just a few gameplay examples that immediately come to mind.  There were quality of life features as well.  Going from typing on the virtual keyboard of the Wii U gamepad to having to manually click to each letter of every word of every sentence on another consoles controller feels like a massive step backwards.  The Wii U gamepad became my goto for both YouTube and Google, because of how much easier they were to navigate than on other consoles.  So, yeah, the Wii U had positive things going for it that the majority of gamers overlooked.  That doesn't make all Wii U owners blind Nintendo fans who buy anything Nintendo puts in front of them.

Having said that, Nintendo absolutely didn't "get a pass from Nintendo fans" through that generation.  The much higher sales Wii U software have enjoyed as Switch releases prove that a very large number of gamers indeed held back their money from buying a system and games they otherwise would have purchased and enjoyed.

Also, how many other console manufacturers do you see personally take pay cuts at the executive level in response to the negative reception of their hardware?

Iwata And Miyamoto Both Take Pay Cuts In Response To Nintendo's Poor Financial Results- 1/29/2014

"It has been revealed that Nintendo president Satoru Iwata will be taking a 50 percent pay reduction following Nintendo's recent financial results.

He's not the only one taking a cut; legendary game designer Shigeru Miyamoto will see his wage slashed by 30 percent, as will fellow Nintendo veteran Genyo Takeda. The seven other members of the company's board will each shoulder a 20 percent reduction.

The news comes after Nintendo issued warnings of further financial losses in the future, attributed to the poor commercial performance of the Wii U console. Nintendo expects to make a loss in Q4 of 2014."

*Regarding your joycons, have you tried spraying Deoxit into the thumbstick?  In most cases, it's a buildup of dead skin/debris that get inside the controller which causes the drift.  I still have my launch day Switch joycons, and I've probably sprayed them with Deoxit twice in 5 years, and it eliminated the drift for a long while both times.  I'm not dismissing the drift as a controller quality issue, mind you.  Just mentioning something that has worked for me as a speedy and cheap fix solution.

This is kind of it, though... You're making the point that during their time of struggle, you see far more interesting behavior come out of Nintendo.  I have no doubt that in order for those two games to use the Gamepad the way they did, Nintendo has to get involved (surely you recall many games did NOT make use of the Gamepad in any useful manner).  In fact, the irony was that really good use of the Gamepad came much later in the Wii U's life.

And of course, I and many others applauded Iwata's decision to take the pay cut.  This is part of why I even made a tribute video: Iwata was a bit of an anti-CEO in ways.  You watch his interviews and he really seems like he'd rather be making games than running the company, something I recall him even alluding to.  I think the Switch era would have been very different under him, tbh.  But even so, the Wii and DS were so successful that it was inevitable there would be laziness creeping in, something even a CEO can't control because he's not making the sole decisions across a company this big.  Enter the Wii U and 3DS, both factually doing worse than their predecessors, but showing off some Nintendo's brightest software bits.

I'm not saying the Wii U era was perfect, but it demonstrated a side of Nintendo that's healthier than now, despite the sales difference.

Mandalore76 said:

I only included it, because it is a contradiction of the sentiment that Nintendo wouldn't care if a console flops or succeeds as long as enough money flows to the top of the company.  Corporate greed exists in one form or another in all companies, but here was a not often seen case of top tier executives taking a failure personally rather than laying-off lower level employees to protect their bottom line.

Just responding to this, but in my previous quote lol

IcaroRibeiro said:

Nintendo had lay offs during Wii U days, at least from what I remember from he thread where some fun update the number of employees. I see your point now, better reducing executives wages than firing baseline.

I agree, but this seems to me as the standard way to deal with bad financial result for tech companies. I'm a software developer and I'm following thr current layoffs trend happening in IT industry, Netflix did something similar to Nintendo and they weren't the only one. I'll try my best to explain my reasoning with my poor English 

Rememeber Nintendo is a company with a few thousand of employees and most of them are engineers and software developers. You can't fire them and expect your operation to keep going as usual. For a company like Nintendo lay off development teams means the strategy was to release less games, delay hardware releases or closing side projects.  

So Nintendo either accepted the losses and keep everyone working as usual hoping this to be just a phase and they could recover in future 

Or they start firing teams, closing projects and financing less games, reducing its size and accepting they would need a more humble start for their next hardware(and then starting growing again)

Nintendo picking first tells me more about how them being resilient (and self assured, in a good sense), which is nice imo but doesn't make them stand out significantly compared to other tec companies 

Off topic, how did Sony handled their executive team during the dark PS3 days? I'm asking because even if they suffered massive losses (much worse than Nintendo's during Wii U) Sony kept supporting the system for as much as they could and even started baking their development teams with nothing but hope they would succeed... and they did, that's when Sony first party output started to have true relevance

Actually, Xbox during the 360 days was the same.  Both the 360 and PS3 pushed sooo hard that both companies lost BILLIONS on them, but ended up pretty much changing the pace and expectations of console gaming entirely and even created a strong narrative battle about "exclusives".  This is also its own proof that when companies are struggling, they have a choice: to fight back or just die out.  Both Sony and Microsoft continued to push on AND compete with each other.  Companies struggling basically either leads to being better or dying off... which in and of itself is actually a healthy thing even IF we can all agree we DON'T want to see people losing jobs or going out of business (especially if you enjoy their products or services).

Microsoft obviously lost the exclusives battle (and consequently the Xbox One sold poorly), but is now trying to fight back on that front.  In their struggle, Game Pass was born.  So now we have yet to see how their exclusive lineup gets handled, because it's still pretty bad as it is lol

I think Nintendo is in a healthier place now than they were in the Wii U/3DS era and I think most would agree on that. Let’s not forget that they were losing money for a few year during the Wii U/3DS era. You can complain about their current issues, but they were struggling during the previous era and kind words aren’t gonna suddenly make your business healthy.

In regards to “anti-consumer” tendencies, it wasn’t as if Nintendo never had those during their down years.

Whether you think their latest sports games are lazy or not, they’re likely just following the Splatoon playbook of updating games to keep consumer engagement. That’s part of the reason why Mario Kart 8 Deluxe will continue to see surges in sales even beyond 2023 with its DLC.

Nintendo is still making great games like Metroid Dread, Xenoblade Chronicles 3, Kirby and the Forgotten Lands, etc. They’ve published at least close to dozens of titles every year. How many publishers can do that?

If the content is there, then people will continue to buy Nintendo Switch and their software. It’s still selling well in the Americas and Europe and is completely dominating Japan even in year 5 of its lifecycle. Nintendo must be doing something right in that regard.



ZyroXZ2 said:
curl-6 said:

When Nintendo fucks up, people generally pass on their systems to a sufficient degree that they have to change course; see the Wii U, Virtual Boy, or Gamecube for example. So it's not like they can do whatever they want, the market will clearly punish them if they don't offer a good enough proposition.

As with any company, there are some times when stuff I don't like still succeeds, but all I can do is vote with my wallet. I didn't buy games like 1-2 Switch or ARMS or the Mario sports games for example because I didn't like what they were offering.

After the long dry years of the Wii U though, where the lack of sales meant terrible droughts and a severe lack of third party software, I personally find owning a highly successful Nintendo system again to be a big relief. I haven't finished Monster Hunter Rise Sunbreak yet or even started FIST Forged In Shadow Torch, and the next few months are about to bombard me with Xenoblade 3, Splatoon 3, Nier Automata, and Bayonetta 3. I haven't been this happy as gamer since... far out, 2010 I think.

This is kind of the point... When they are doing bad, they rethink their efforts in ways that are tangible.  You likely have the Wii U to thank for Bayonetta as I don't think they would have even taken on that project had they not felt they needed to bolster their offerings.  It's in desperation that corporate execs start thinking about how to change things for the better because they WANT to turn things around.  They did, except just like the Wii days, the success leads to signs of *dun dun dun* greed, laziness, cornering the market, etc.  We're almost talking in circles, now lmfao

I mean, let's not forget Nintendo decided to generate false scarcity by limiting the release of Super Mario 3D All Stars... It was 2021, why in the HELL would they make it a limited release (notwithstanding that it was just simple ports rather than remasters).  And even if they wanted to stop physical production, there was no reason to stop digital sales.

Again, I didn't have time in the video to go through everything, but if you're watching closely, they're doing some seriously "because we can" stuff...  You're happy to enjoy the good things, and I never said there wasn't anything good, but I'm watching out for the signs that Nintendo is starting to get cocky, which they absolutely are because... full circle here we go... SUCCESS!

Nintendo acquired Bayonetta 2 before the Wii U came out, when they were still coming off the massive success of the Wii. Bayonetta 3 is simply the continuation of that established partnership rather than the result of lacking success.

Nintendo did tons of "because they can" stuff in the Wii U era too when they were failing, like locking content behind Amiibo and games like Federation Force, Mario Tennis Ultra Smash, and Animal Crossing Amiibo Festival. Speaking of those travesties, now that they're successful again, we've gotten a proper HD Animal Crossing, and Metroid Dread, both big steps up. So that's really not down to their success either, they do some not so great stuff when they're struggling as well.

Having lived and gamed through 6 generations of Nintendo hardware, I don't see a correlation between them succeeding and giving me a bad time. I've pretty much always had a better experience the more successful they are.

Chazore said:
curl-6 said:

When Nintendo fucks up, people generally pass on their systems to a sufficient degree that they have to change course; see the Wii U, Virtual Boy, or Gamecube for example. So it's not like they can do whatever they want, the market will clearly punish them if they don't offer a good enough proposition.

As with any company, there are some times when stuff I don't like still succeeds, but all I can do is vote with my wallet. I didn't buy games like 1-2 Switch or ARMS or the Mario sports games for example because I didn't like what they were offering.

The WIi U was designed to make bank even if they fucked up, which they did end up getting both in the end. They fucked up, but they still managed to make bank on the system, enough to consider it a setback, but not a "oh shit we've made no money from the system at all this entire gen", so they still got something out of it instead of absolute "you fucked up, now you're gonna suffer the consumer wrath" style of punishment they should have gotten. Despite that setback, they were still rewarded enough to make money back on the system they didn't push hard enough on, which tells me that there was a decent size of the fanbase to help them get that far, instead of hardly any at all. 

Let's take babylon's fall for example, yes that's a game and not a system, but because of the way it was designed to be, and the lack of marketing, and exclusivity shit, it sold like utter crap and now has less players than it did on day/week one. That's how a game/system should be punished, or hell, the recent crap going down with VR chat has tons of folks requesting refunds and leaving negative reviews. That's basically become a big PR nightmare for VRChat, while Nintendo still got to slide by with the Wii U and make bank and still not have to worry all that much about PR, because they brought out the Switch.

Point is, the fans helped them get by, they just weren't punished hard enough, and with the Switch it's all magically water under the bridge, despite the joycon issue still looming over the system (and me having a 2nd pair busted, with Nintendo asking for another £70 from me if I ever want to play the system I bought ever again). 

You may have not bought much into the Wii U, but others did. You have to remember that one purchase doesn't make for a a greater snowball effect, it takes bigger numbers for a greater effect to happen. 

Mandalore already pretty much covered all the points I was going to here; gamers did not let the Wii U slide, the vast majority passed on it altogether and caused it to flop hard. It sold less than the Vita of all things.

The Switch succeeded by being a huge course correction away from the Wii U. It won people over who were not sold on the Wii U with its stronger software output and more accessible and appealing concept.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 01 August 2022

Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023. (And over 130 million lifetime)