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Forums - Politics Discussion - Shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas (19 Students, 2 Teachers Dead)

JWeinCom said:
sc94597 said:

Given that the other party started with one-sentence flippant responses that weren't relevant to the text quoted, who exactly is attempting "to shut down the dialogue?" Anyway, the questions aren't rhetorical. They are legitimate. Some of them are sub-questions meant to expand on a more general question. But ultimately the general question is, "how do we equitably enforce new gun laws in the United States, given that the institutions of law-enforcement are highly racially-biased and given that past and current gun laws are disproportionately harmful to BIPOC persons?" 

I did not say the questions were not legitimate, but there were about 20 of them fired off rapidly. I do not think you reasonably expected a thoughtful, measured, and researched response to all of them. Regardless of what anyone else was doing, this was clearly not an attempt at a dialogue. 

It's like going on a date and asking, "Hi how are you, how many brothers and sisters do you have, do you want to have kids someday, how many, if we had a boy would you want to circumcise, do you want to raise them in any particular religion, what if they didn't accept that religion, and what if they wanted to raise their children in a different one, would you intervene, and what if the children's gender identity is different from what is assigned at birth, and would you support a trans child, ..." Each question may be legitimate on its own, but if you spew them out like that, pretty sure that the other person would bail real quick.

So let's consider that the context isn't a real-time conversation or a date. 

1. I brought up the point to Svennoj that legal-issues aside enforcement is a real problem logistically, and there are also concerns because enforcement of new criminal laws almost always leads to more racial inequality in the U.S and we are currently in a period where we desperately need wide-scale decriminalization. 

2. Chrkeller uncharitably quoted my response with a quib about hunting deer with semi-automatic weapons, as if the concerns I brought up were as trivially inconsiderate as an NRA talking point.  

3. After a few back and forth quibs, Chrkeller brought up policy proposals that they thought were "common-sense" or "logical" without addressing the concerns about enforcement I previously brought up. 

4. At this point, given that I already brought up a few problems with enforcement, the whole point of my contribution in this particular discussion was enforcement, and there was no good faith effort or understanding that this is the problem I have, do I just ask a few of these questions waiting for more quibs or to emphasize that enforcement isn't some trivial matter but something quite complicated with various different implications to people of different backgrounds and relations with law-enforcement do I form a barrage of questions? Of course, given the history of there being no good faith within the discussion I am going to choose the latter. It wasn't to overwhelm, but to instigate in a way that emphasizes that there are dozens of questions that need to be answered when constructing legislation that will strongly affect people's lives. Partly I was interested in Chrkeller's responses, as I am with anybody who supports criminalization of certain forms of otherwise non-violent activity, but I didn't have high hopes and given that I never did receive answers to even the general question implied in the barrage -- how can we enforce any strong gun control laws equitably?, and for which I asked elsewhere I wasn't wrong in my assumption. 



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Pemalite said:
sc94597 said:

I am a POC. My family are BIPOC. I still have concerns about gun laws because of how they are used to harm people who look like me and my family, even if we are non-gun owners, such as the examples I provided. I was genuinely asking about how enforcement of a ban would work without disproportionately harming people who look like me and my family, and you respond with a very yt perspective about hunting deer with no intentions of addressing these questions.

1. That's the issue. There is this "Binary" line in the sand.

The gun control legislation itself shouldn't discriminate, here people of different ethnic/cultural backgrounds don't really suffer any more or less with or without guns... But one thing is for sure. They are certainly less likely to be shot dead.

One of my roles as a first responder is extrication's where we assist the ambulance service... And after all these years I can count how many "incidents" involved guns. - None.

Growing up as a kid in the 80's, guns were everywhere, even my own father had a double barrel shotgun in his garage that I often played with. (No ammo of course.)
Fast forward to the late 90's... And every child after that is highly unlikely to ever see a gun in real life... And it doesn't matter what cultural/ethnic/minority you are, it's just safer for everyone.

sc94597 said:

There is estimated to be about 400-600 million guns in the U.S. The majority of them are probably semi-automatic weapons at this point. That is a gun to person ratio of between 1.2 and 1.8. 

Controlling the supply of guns is just not logistically possible at this point. 

It would be easier to: 

  1. Work on reducing wealth-inequality and eliminate homelessness and poverty. 
  2. Pay to have a school psychiatrist evaluate every student and have free-at-the-point of use mental healthcare for everyone in primary and secondary school (at least, ideally for everyone.) 
  3. Reconstruct social clubs that allow people to form physical connections beyond their family and in which a person is more likely to be de-radicalized or re-adjusted to society. Historically local churches did this, but the U.S population is secularizing. Right now the problem is that young people in the U.S experience what Durkheim called Anomie. This is either because rules are too rigid and alienate them or because there is no normative structure at all. 
  4. Reconstruct the education systems so that students don't feel alienated. See: Ferrer movement and Francisco Ferrer as an ideal model. 
  5. Decriminalize all drugs and other non-violent "crimes." 
  6. Aggressively dox and put maximal social pressure on fascists and other hyper-nationalists. 
  7. #6 but for Incels and other radical misogynists. 

Introducing every point on this list would be easier (and likely have a greater effect on shootings) than reducing the supply of guns in the U.S. Solving these problems would also solve many other social problems in the U.S as well. 

2. Start with Gun Control first and then work your way back. It's the source of the issue, you attack issues from the source.



1. Right, laws shouldn't affect people of different racial and ethnic backgrounds differently, but we aren't talking about some ideal implementation of the law or even the intent of the law, which might on paper seem perfectly egalitarian. We are talking about the actual implementation of the law -- how the law is actually enforced in the actual real-world institutions that exist. The American political and legal institutions are unique enough that they have been able to preserve white-supremacist effects even if on the surface they are liberal (read: racially-egalitarian or color-blind) in content.

While not being shot is indeed a primary concern everyone has in the U.S, there are other concerns that people in marginalized spaces (and even those who aren't) have for their well-being. The likelihood of being shot in a mass shooting (or otherwise), even in the U.S, is still quite a bit lower than the likelihood of seeing yourself or a relative discriminated against by law-enforcement on the pretense that you have a weapon, or being a victim of a non-lethal but organized crime, or being impoverished because the community you grow up in is seen as "crime-ridden" or many other less-than-lethal but still undesirable positions to be in. It is a lot like being more concerned about being in a car accident than a plane crash. A plane crash is almost certainly worse than being in a car accident, but you are far more likely to be in a car accident so your more primary concern is to make sure you are safely driving or riding in a car. 

2. I actually see it as the inverse. Poverty, misogyny, racism, and various other social maladies are the motivations for almost every shooting, but also the sources of other problems. Solving these problems solves not only shootings but also other strong problems in American society. If you don't have severe poverty, people don't turn to organized crime to survive. If you don't have widespread misogyny, especially in the form Incels express it, radical misogynists don't exist to kill people out of their self-loathing and anger. If you don't have widespread white-supremacy, white supremacists don't exist to kill people out of their fear and anger. These are the sources of the issue. Without them, people wouldn't be motivated to engage in the violence in the first place. 



Stop selling higher powered, high mag capacity semi automated guns.

Raise the age to purchase guns to 21 years old.

Ban second hand sales of guns.  



Common sense. Start there.  But I'll wager a guess, the response for the other side is going to be "no because reasons."  



It's time serious action is taken, we need more than "ThOuGhTs AnD pRaYeRs" because we all know thoughts and prayers don't do shit.



I realize that I never suggested what my "preferred gun policy" is. 

I think a tiered licensing system along these lines is probably ideal: 

Class #1: Any rim-fire weapon and ammunition| no license required, can't conceal carry 

Class #2: Ability to purchase center-fire weapons and ammunition | shall issue license upon completion of state-subsidized course, comes with nationwide concealed or open carry permit

Class #3: Automatic weapons, other Title II weapons, and other military small-arms | participation in gun club or state-militia with references, thorough background check, regular mental health checks subsidized at the state's expense. 

People who own a weapon in a class that they don't have a license for are given the opportunity to meet the requirements, retroactively, as an alternative to fines or jail-time in so much as they didn't commit a violent crime. 

Former felons get to own guns and get their voting rights back automatically upon completion of their sentence, unless there is reason to think they are at a high risk of recidivism. 

Nevertheless, I think solving the social maladies that we find in the U.S is a more comprehensive and thorough solution that has many more tertiary benefits. 



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Bipoc people?



S.Peelman said:

Bipoc people?

Black, Indigenous and other people of color.

People who have ancestors that were colonized by settlers from Europe and are below whites in the American racial caste system, a system that people pretend has been deconstructed but actually hasn't been. 



sc94597 said:

I realize that I never suggested what my "preferred gun policy" is. 

I think a tiered licensing system along these lines is probably ideal: 

Class #1: Any rim-fire weapon and ammunition| no license required, can't conceal carry 

Class #2: Ability to purchase center-fire weapons and ammunition | shall issue license upon completion of state-subsidized course, comes with nationwide concealed or open carry permit

Class #3: Automatic weapons, other Title II weapons, and other military small-arms | participation in gun club or state-militia with references, thorough background check, regular mental health checks subsidized at the state's expense. 

People who own a weapon in a class that they don't have a license for are given the opportunity to meet the requirements, retroactively, as an alternative to fines or jail-time in so much as they didn't commit a violent crime. 

Former felons get to own guns and get their voting rights back automatically upon completion of their sentence, unless there is reason to think they are at a high risk of recidivism. 

Nevertheless, I think solving the social maladies that we find in the U.S is a more comprehensive and thorough solution that has many more tertiary benefits. 

I would personally ban Class #3, but otherwise I think that seems to be a pretty solid plan in regards to firearm legality, however I think it misses a lot of other avenues where we should be attempting to combat this crisis. Namely, universal background checks and restrictions on who can own guns. So, I would add the following:

-Every time a firearm changes possession, a background check must be conducted. No exceptions.

-Raise the age required to purchase a firearm to 21.

-Ban individuals with a history of substance abuse or non-felony domestic violence charges from firearm ownership for a period of time (Research would be necessary to determine how long this period should be). Additionally, violent felons should never get their firearm owning rights returned to them.

-All firearms must have a unique serial number.

I would also support a firearm registry in order to both improve enforcement and to help solve crimes, but this seems like more of a long term goal than a short term one. 

Additionally, we should seek to more holistically address crime by seeking to improve access to housing, improve schooling, improve wages, etc, but while I believe this is extremely important, I do think it is a bit of a different discussion. 



Pemalite said:


You don't loose the right. It's just made more difficult.

Having armed personnel just means the higher chance of a cross-shootout with casualties caught in the middle... And no child should grow up fearing if they are going to be murdered in what should be a safe, constructive, learning environment.



It's a school, not a prison?

If you are talking about license to bear firearms. Yes it's no longer a right, or at least a highly infringed right

Also... The more armed guards the more shootings?

Last edited by cyberninja45 - on 25 May 2022

My 3ds friendcode: 5413-0232-9676 (G-cyber)



sc94597 said:
S.Peelman said:

Bipoc people?

Black, Indigenous and other people of color.

People who have ancestors that were colonized by settlers from Europe and are below whites in the American racial caste system, a system that people pretend has been deconstructed but actually hasn't been. 

Christ… O.O