By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas (19 Students, 2 Teachers Dead)

Really fucked up. Is it crazy to think that both attention to the social fabric and gun legislation need to be done? There are a lot of firearms already in the States, but they nonetheless have to be contained somehow, it is a real necessity at this point, and acquiring one must be made a true hassle as well.

Nonetheless, what sc94 mentions is very sensible. Remove the guns and you're still left with probably hundreds of thousands of young people resentful with one or more groups of society.



My bet with The_Liquid_Laser: I think the Switch won't surpass the PS2 as the best selling system of all time. If it does, I'll play a game of a list that The_Liquid_Laser will provide, I will have to play it for 50 hours or complete it, whatever comes first. 

Around the Network
sc94597 said:
SvennoJ said:


Why are automatic weapons not even banned in the US?

Automatic weapons were effectively banned in the U.S with the Firearm Owners Protection Act. In order to get one you need to go through a 6 month FBI background check and pay for a $200 tax stamp. All automatic weapons made after 1986 are illegal for civilian purchase, and everything else that had been grandfathered from before then is very expensive ($20,000 - $30,000.) Bump stocks, which convert semi-automatic weapons into fully-automatic weapons were banned via ATF regulation and the courts have held the ban so far. But the ban is hard to enforce because bump stocks can be made very easily and cheaply. 

The difficulty with banning semi-automatic weapons is that they are the most common weapon-category produced by manufacturers and the Supreme Court in D.C vs. Heller decided that any weapon in common-use is protected by the Second Amendment. Plus there are about 300 million semi-automatic guns in the U.S, and rounding them all up would cause considerable problems given the unconsented policing-landscape of the U.S and the strong ability for organized crime to develop around their restriction (like with drugs and alcohol prohibition.) If semi-automatic weapons were banned when there were few of them, like what was done with automatic weapons, it would be pretty easy to enforce, but since there are so many, the problems with enforcement arise. You might observe a situation where white people who live in rural areas where police don't want to enforce gun laws are affected very little, while BIPOC people who live in jurisdictions where police are more committed (mostly urban areas) in enforcing them feeling the brunt of these new laws. This of course leads to many other inequalities, and there is a widespread movement currently to move away from mass-incarceration, not create new crimes where there weren't formerly any that will almost certainly disproportionately harm non-white communities and persons. 

What are some ideas for enforcing bans of semi-automatic weapons that would get rid of about 300 million guns, in a way that doesn't disproportionately harm marginalized people, soon enough before the next political cycle leads to the repealing of such a law? 

Plus how are people suppose to go 'deer hunting' without a rifle that shoots 60 bullets per minute and holds 200 rounds????



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Chrkeller said:
sc94597 said:

Automatic weapons were effectively banned in the U.S with the Firearm Owners Protection Act. In order to get one you need to go through a 6 month FBI background check and pay for a $200 tax stamp. All automatic weapons made after 1986 are illegal for civilian purchase, and everything else that had been grandfathered from before then is very expensive ($20,000 - $30,000.) Bump stocks, which convert semi-automatic weapons into fully-automatic weapons were banned via ATF regulation and the courts have held the ban so far. But the ban is hard to enforce because bump stocks can be made very easily and cheaply. 

The difficulty with banning semi-automatic weapons is that they are the most common weapon-category produced by manufacturers and the Supreme Court in D.C vs. Heller decided that any weapon in common-use is protected by the Second Amendment. Plus there are about 300 million semi-automatic guns in the U.S, and rounding them all up would cause considerable problems given the unconsented policing-landscape of the U.S and the strong ability for organized crime to develop around their restriction (like with drugs and alcohol prohibition.) If semi-automatic weapons were banned when there were few of them, like what was done with automatic weapons, it would be pretty easy to enforce, but since there are so many, the problems with enforcement arise. You might observe a situation where white people who live in rural areas where police don't want to enforce gun laws are affected very little, while BIPOC people who live in jurisdictions where police are more committed (mostly urban areas) in enforcing them feeling the brunt of these new laws. This of course leads to many other inequalities, and there is a widespread movement currently to move away from mass-incarceration, not create new crimes where there weren't formerly any that will almost certainly disproportionately harm non-white communities and persons. 

What are some ideas for enforcing bans of semi-automatic weapons that would get rid of about 300 million guns, in a way that doesn't disproportionately harm marginalized people, soon enough before the next political cycle leads to the repealing of such a law? 

Plus how are people suppose to go 'deer hunting' without a rifle that shoots 60 bullets per minute and holds 200 rounds????

So are you going to address the legitimate points brought up or is constructing a strawman what you intended? 

For example, is this not a problem? 

https://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/gun-violence-missouri/article258304878.html

or this? 

Are people concerned about the use of new gun laws (like is already the case with the existing ones), and their uneven enforcement based on the perceived race of the person the same thing as somebody wanting to use a semi-automatic gun to hunt a deer? 

Or will the institutions in this country magically become non-white supremacist sometime before these laws are to be enforced? 



sc94597 said:
Chrkeller said:

Plus how are people suppose to go 'deer hunting' without a rifle that shoots 60 bullets per minute and holds 200 rounds????

So are you going to address the legitimate points brought up or is constructing a strawman what you intended? 

For example, is this not a problem? 

https://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/gun-violence-missouri/article258304878.html

or this? 

Are people concerned about the use of new gun laws (like is already the case with the existing ones), and their uneven enforcement based on the perceived race of the person the same thing as somebody wanting to use a semi-automatic gun to hunt a deer? 

Or will the institutions in this country magically become non-white supremacist sometime before these laws are to be enforced? 

There is absolutely nothing 'strawman' about this country having a 100% refusal about even discussing logical gun laws.  This is where we are and have been for decades.  

At the end of the day a civilian does not need a gun that shots 45 rounds every 60 seconds.  It isn't needed for hunting.  It isn't needed for home defense.  It is a weapon of war, full stop.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 25 May 2022

i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Chrkeller said:

 

There is absolutely nothing 'strawman' about this country having a 100% refusal about even discussing logical gun laws.  This is where we are and have been for decades.  

I am not a right-winger. I am not an NRA member. I vote straight Democratic and vote for the third of that party that prescribes social democracy when they are on primary ballots. I am a POC. My family are BIPOC. I still have concerns about gun laws because of how they are used to harm people who look like me and my family, even if we are non-gun owners, such as the examples I provided. I was genuinely asking about how enforcement of a ban would work without disproportionately harming people who look like me and my family, and you respond with a very yt perspective about hunting deer with no intentions of addressing these questions. So I guess you're keeping continuity with "having a 100% refusal about even discussing logical gun laws"? Any law is going to have to be enforced, and how that enforcement is going to happen is quite important in determining which gun laws are "logical." If you're not interested in discussing enforcement and the potential problems surrounding it, then you are part of the group who has a "100% refusal ... discussing logical gun laws." 

Last edited by sc94597 - on 25 May 2022

Around the Network
sc94597 said:
Chrkeller said:

There is absolutely nothing 'strawman' about this country having a 100% refusal about even discussing logical gun laws.  This is where we are and have been for decades.  

I am not a right-winger. I am not an NRA member. I vote straight Democratic and vote for the third of that party that prescribes social democracy when they are on primary ballots. I am a POC. My family are BIPOC. I still have concerns about gun laws because of how they are used to harm people who look like me and my family, even if we are non-gun owners, such as the examples I provided. I was genuinely asking about how enforcement of a ban would work without disproportionately harming people who look like me and my family, and you respond with a very yt perspective about hunting deer with no intentions of addressing these questions. So I guess you're keeping continuity with "having a 100% refusable about even discussing logical gun laws"? Any law is going to have to be enforced, and how that enforcement is going to happen is quite important in determining which gun laws are "logical." If you're not interested in discussing enforcement and the potential problems surrounding it, then you are part of the group who has a "100% refusal ... discussing logical gun laws." 

I think common sense gun laws include allowing people to own hunting rifles and home defense (e.g. shotguns).  First step is to acknowledge high powered 45 rounds per minutes high capacity mags simply shouldn't be readily available for the average person to buy.  Does this fix everything?  No.  But at least start with weapon type.



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Chrkeller said:

I think common sense gun laws include allowing people to own hunting rifles and home defense (e.g. shotguns).  First step is to acknowledge high powered 45 rounds per minutes high capacity mags simply shouldn't be readily available for the average person to buy.  Does this fix everything?  No.  But at least start with weapon type.

Immediate questions: to continue the dialogue. Who are the new laws going to be enforced by? Specifically, how do you address rural and exurban sheriffs and police departments who practice "nullification" and states/counties that set up "second amendment sanctuaries"? Will there need to be funding allocated to the ATF to hire new, very large nation-wide police force that does raids in rural areas when state law-enforcement refuses to assist in enforcement? Are people who already own to-be-illegal guns allowed to be grandfathered in their ownership or will they have to forfeit them to comply with the law? If they are grandfathered in their ownership does that solve the problem given how many guns are already out there, often in white-supremacist hands? If they must forfeit them, how is this to be enforced? Will we expand prison populations to house those who disobey, despite having the largest prison population per capita in the world already? Or will fines and confiscations be the only enforcement mechanism and we hope that after decades of being fined the number of illegal firearms will naturally fall off at a rapid enough rate that they are hard to obtain within some of our lifetimes? If we just accept that this will be disproportionately enforced, how do we combat the inequalities in convictions, prison populations, economic well-being, etc among different ethnic groups due to the uneven enforcement of these laws? Will black, indigenous, and other people of color get reparations because the law only de-facto applies in our communities and not the second amendment sanctuaries where white people live? Will stop and frisk be explicitly outlawed so that those of us who don't own guns but look a certain way aren't racially profiled on the premise that we might have an illegal gun but really it is because of our race? Will regular police patrols be limited to shotguns or will they be exempted as they tend to be in current legislation? If they are exempted, why? 



Like I said, nothing will change because common sense is immediately met with paranoia and nonsense. Thanks for proving my point.



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Chrkeller said:

Like I said, nothing will change because common sense is immediately met with paranoia and nonsense. Thanks for proving my point.

Yeah, you obviously are white. Otherwise you would understand quite well that concern about the white-supremacist police forces and institutions in this country is not unjustified. Typical yt settler-colonizer mentality. 



sc94597 said:
Chrkeller said:

Like I said, nothing will change because common sense is immediately met with paranoia and nonsense. Thanks for proving my point.

Yeah, you obviously are white. Otherwise you would understand quite well that concern about the white-supremacist police forces and institutions in this country is not unjustified. Typical yt settler-colonizer mentality. 

non sequitur

At the very least we stop future sales of high powered, high capacity semi automated weapons of war.  Just start there. 

But you and others don't want any limitations, we would prefer dead children.  Which is your opinion, I just don't share it.  We could at least attempt to try, but we won't because money.   



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC