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Forums - Politics Discussion - Shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas (19 Students, 2 Teachers Dead)

JWeinCom said:
sc94597 said:

Sure some people in that group aren't that smart, but if people used their own faculties rather than "follow orders" a few of them would have initiated the process of breaking down the door. Police intentionally turn off their own reasoning skills and act as automatons to be ordered.

I personally don't think teachers should be forced to carry guns. Having said that, it isn't impossible for there to be an effective arming of teachers. If I recall correctly, Israel has done this as a counter-terrorism measure. Albeit all Israelis are conscripted into the military for two years and there are other very different cultural and political differences from the U.S. Edit: I just fact checked this, and found out that this is a myth. Israel has armed security guards, but not armed teachers. 

Israel is also the size of New Jersey, with compulsory military service for all citizens. Finding qualified guards there would be easier than placing an armed guard in each school in rural Texas. There are 98,755 public schools in the US. And there are always going to be other soft targets. Can't arm everyone, no matter how much some would like that.

Notice that I said, "I personally don't think teachers should be forced to carry guns" and "Albeit all Israelis are conscripted into the military for two years." 

Also notice how I never advocated arming everyone. My original proposal was to replace police (who are white-supremacist or at the very least have implicit bias and are unreliable at protecting people anyway) with community defense organizations that are actually tasked with protecting people and not merely enforcing property law. 



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JWeinCom said:
cyberninja45 said:

OK

We have established that the U.S. cannot follow other countries. It is your right to bear arms in the country. Its the SECOND Amendment for godsake. It's almost like the right to life.  I bet countries that ban or infrige the right to life problably "solved" alot of problems human make with great success.

So knowing you cannot remove or infringe this right, but they have mass shootings that happen practically nowhere else but in these completely unnesseccary gun free zones or zones with low arm bearing..and there is no right to gun free zones in the constitution(actually goes agianst the constitution,so probably relatively easy to do politically). Therefore remove and discouraged gun free zones everywhere possible. At least remove them and see that happens.

And please dont make the argument that being gun free has nothing to do with it. We'll see what happens.

Always fun when people with know knowledge of the law try to make arguments about it.

First off, the amendments are not ranked. Freedom of speech is not more important to the right to a speedy trial. The order is irrelevant.

More importantly, the government can absolutely infringe on any constitutional right. Even ignoring the vast interpretation issues of holding the second amendment to protect modern weapons, rights are not absolute. Statutes that potentially infringe on constitutional rights are subject to strict scrutiny, generally. If a statute is related to a legitimate public concern and is the narrowest away to achieve that goal, then it can be passed. Because common sense. Only a complete putz would think freedom of speech means you can say anything anywhere at anytime, or that the right to bear arms means you could have any weapon at any time in any place. Gun free zones have repeatedly been upheld as constitutional. And of course the second Amendment is an AMENDMENT. That means we changed the constitution, and we could do so again. We've done it 34 times. The Constitution isn't a tablet from mount sinai. 

As for school free zones, the last shootings have been at a McDonalds, not a gun free zone, a church, not a gun free zone, a supermarket, not a gun free zone, a private residence, not a gun free zone, at a small, not a gun free zone, the New York City subway, not a gun free zone, downtown Sacramento, not a gun free zone, a park, not a gun free zone, a high school, gun free zone, a supermarket, not a gun free zone, a concert, not a gun free zone, the VTA, not a gun free zone to my knowledge, a trailer park, not a gun free zone, a Fed Ex, not a gun free zone, a private residence, not a gun free zone, an office building, not a gun free zone, a supermarket, not a gun free zone, and a spa, not a gun free zone.

So, at best, abolishing gun free zones would have prevented 2 of the last 20 mass shootings.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. 

Can the Federal government "infringe" to the scale where they follow other countries? (e.g. license to bear arms). No? OK

Did you read where I said and "or zones with low arms bearing"(which is basically just an unintended gun free zone) and this should be discouraged/avoided? No? OK

You really believe the constuition is not written in order of importance? No? Ok



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sc94597 said:
JWeinCom said:

Israel is also the size of New Jersey, with compulsory military service for all citizens. Finding qualified guards there would be easier than placing an armed guard in each school in rural Texas. There are 98,755 public schools in the US. And there are always going to be other soft targets. Can't arm everyone, no matter how much some would like that.

Notice that I said, "I personally don't think teachers should be forced to carry guns" and "Albeit all Israelis are conscripted into the military for two years." 

Also notice how I never advocated arming everyone. My original proposal was to replace police (who are white-supremacist or at the very least have implicit bias and are unreliable at protecting people anyway) with community defense organizations that are actually tasked with protecting people and not merely enforcing property law. 

I didn't say you said either of those things. I didn't even mention teachers, I was referring to guards. And no, I didn't notice you said anything about military service, because you struck that part out, which I took as a sign to ignore.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 27 May 2022

cyberninja45 said:
JWeinCom said:

Always fun when people with know knowledge of the law try to make arguments about it.

First off, the amendments are not ranked. Freedom of speech is not more important to the right to a speedy trial. The order is irrelevant.

More importantly, the government can absolutely infringe on any constitutional right. Even ignoring the vast interpretation issues of holding the second amendment to protect modern weapons, rights are not absolute. Statutes that potentially infringe on constitutional rights are subject to strict scrutiny, generally. If a statute is related to a legitimate public concern and is the narrowest away to achieve that goal, then it can be passed. Because common sense. Only a complete putz would think freedom of speech means you can say anything anywhere at anytime, or that the right to bear arms means you could have any weapon at any time in any place. Gun free zones have repeatedly been upheld as constitutional. And of course the second Amendment is an AMENDMENT. That means we changed the constitution, and we could do so again. We've done it 34 times. The Constitution isn't a tablet from mount sinai. 

As for school free zones, the last shootings have been at a McDonalds, not a gun free zone, a church, not a gun free zone, a supermarket, not a gun free zone, a private residence, not a gun free zone, at a small, not a gun free zone, the New York City subway, not a gun free zone, downtown Sacramento, not a gun free zone, a park, not a gun free zone, a high school, gun free zone, a supermarket, not a gun free zone, a concert, not a gun free zone, the VTA, not a gun free zone to my knowledge, a trailer park, not a gun free zone, a Fed Ex, not a gun free zone, a private residence, not a gun free zone, an office building, not a gun free zone, a supermarket, not a gun free zone, and a spa, not a gun free zone.

So, at best, abolishing gun free zones would have prevented 2 of the last 20 mass shootings.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. 

Can the Federal government "infringe" to the scale where they follow other countries (e.g. license to bear arms). No? OK

Did you read where I said and "or zones with low arms bearing"(which is just an unintended gun free zone) and this should be discouraged/avoided. No? OK

You really believe the constuition is not written in order of importance? No? Ok

Yes, I believe the constitution is not written in order of importance, because I've studied constitutional law. Please find me one source that indicates freedoms guaranteed by an amendment that comes first is more protected. The right to not have the government lock you in prison, take all your shit, and kill you for no reason is in the fifth amendment. You think the right not to quarter soldiers is more important? "Fine, lock me in jail, take everything I owen, and put a spike through my head, but YOU BETTER NOT MAKE ME LET A SOLDIER SLEEP ON MY FOUTON!!!" LMAO. Stop embarassing yourself. 

A gun free zone is a zone where it is illegal to own a firearm. There is no such thing as an unintented gun free zone. We have less low arms bearing zones than any other country, and the most gun violence. We already have more gun owners than anywhere else, so encouraging more doesn't seem to be a viable solution. And by the way, why do you think a supermarket in South Carolina, a McDonalds in fucking Chicago, or a supermarket in Tennessee are particularly low gun areas? Do you have any evidence of a correlation between low gun ownership areas and high mass shootings? Because in states where there are more guns, where you would naturally have less, "unintended gun free zones LMFAO" tend to have more mass shootings. So, stop pulling shit out of your ass.

I did not say the government could change the laws to match other countries, but they could get a lot closer. There are plenty of laws that would be constitutional, but are blocked because they are politically unpopular. Background checks have been upheld as constitutional. Justice fucking Alito wrote a decision that background checks are ok, and he ain't exactly a liberal.

You don't have any fucking idea what you're talking about, and you're embarassing yourself. 

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 27 May 2022

JWeinCom said:
sc94597 said:

Notice that I said, "I personally don't think teachers should be forced to carry guns" and "Albeit all Israelis are conscripted into the military for two years." 

Also notice how I never advocated arming everyone. My original proposal was to replace police (who are white-supremacist or at the very least have implicit bias and are unreliable at protecting people anyway) with community defense organizations that are actually tasked with protecting people and not merely enforcing property law. 

I didn't say you said either of those things. I didn't even mention teachers, I was referring to guards.

What was the point in replying to my post specifically? The only reason I even mentioned guards was to add the fact-check correction. I wasn't supporting the idea of guards in schools and mentioned earlier in this thread that I don't support the idea. I even acknowledged that Israel had conscription with the implication that it makes it easier to find qualified individuals. 

My personal thinking is more on the lines of what is outlined in this book: 

https://truthout.org/articles/examining-the-role-of-community-armed-self-defense-in-an-era-of-gun-violence/

Setting Sights takes an intersectional approach to community armed self-defense by examining Indigenous resistance in North America; women’s suffrage; Black liberation movements; LGBTQIA movements; anti-racist, poor, white movements; and anarchist organizing. The theory section features Neal Shirley, Kristian Williams, Peter Little, Chad Kautzer, J. Clark, Ashanti Alston, the Western Unit Tactical Defense Caucus, Leslie James Pickering, Gustavo Rodriguez and the North Carolina Piece Corps. The history section features Paul Avrich, Shawn Stevenson, Anti-Fascist Action UK, Helge Döhring, Gabriel Kuhn, Lamont Carter, David Cecelski, Kathleen Cleaver, Mabel Williams, Angela Davis, Akinyele Omowale Umoja, Nikki Craft, Gord Hill, Dennis Banks, Michele Rene Weston, Laura Gallery, Subcomandante Marcos, Suncere Shakur, Simón Sedillo, Mo Karnage, George Ciccariello-Maher, Dave Strano, the Huey P. Newton Gun Club, Alexander Reid Ross and Ian LaVallee.

 ---

On the discussion of gun control, author Neal Shirley points out that white supremacy pervades the right-wing as well as liberal perspective of the debate. Shirley explains that many right-wingers are “notoriously racist” and National Rifle Association (NRA) literature often promotes “fear of people of color,” with NRA pamphlets hinting at an impending “race war to come.” Looking at the liberal perspective, Shirley notes, “white liberals use gun control to legislate the freedoms of communities of color,” which “give racist cops one more thing with which to harass, detain, arrest, and brutalize people of color.”



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sc94597 said:
JWeinCom said:

I didn't say you said either of those things. I didn't even mention teachers, I was referring to guards.

What was the point in replying to my post specifically? The only reason I even mentioned guards was to add the fact-check correction. I wasn't supporting the idea of guards in schools and mentioned earlier in this thread that I don't support the idea. I even acknowledged that Israel had conscription with the implication that it makes it easier to find qualified individuals. 

My personal thinking is more on the lines of what is outlined in this book: 

https://truthout.org/articles/examining-the-role-of-community-armed-self-defense-in-an-era-of-gun-violence/

Setting Sights takes an intersectional approach to community armed self-defense by examining Indigenous resistance in North America; women’s suffrage; Black liberation movements; LGBTQIA movements; anti-racist, poor, white movements; and anarchist organizing. The theory section features Neal Shirley, Kristian Williams, Peter Little, Chad Kautzer, J. Clark, Ashanti Alston, the Western Unit Tactical Defense Caucus, Leslie James Pickering, Gustavo Rodriguez and the North Carolina Piece Corps. The history section features Paul Avrich, Shawn Stevenson, Anti-Fascist Action UK, Helge Döhring, Gabriel Kuhn, Lamont Carter, David Cecelski, Kathleen Cleaver, Mabel Williams, Angela Davis, Akinyele Omowale Umoja, Nikki Craft, Gord Hill, Dennis Banks, Michele Rene Weston, Laura Gallery, Subcomandante Marcos, Suncere Shakur, Simón Sedillo, Mo Karnage, George Ciccariello-Maher, Dave Strano, the Huey P. Newton Gun Club, Alexander Reid Ross and Ian LaVallee.

 ---

On the discussion of gun control, author Neal Shirley points out that white supremacy pervades the right-wing as well as liberal perspective of the debate. Shirley explains that many right-wingers are “notoriously racist” and National Rifle Association (NRA) literature often promotes “fear of people of color,” with NRA pamphlets hinting at an impending “race war to come.” Looking at the liberal perspective, Shirley notes, “white liberals use gun control to legislate the freedoms of communities of color,” which “give racist cops one more thing with which to harass, detain, arrest, and brutalize people of color.”

You mentioned guards, which is a potential solution, so I wanted to comment on the viability of that. It had nothing to do with you personally or your opinion. You just mentioned something, and I wanted to say something about it.



I didn't even know gun free zones were a thing.



JWeinCom said:
cyberninja45 said:

Can the Federal government "infringe" to the scale where they follow other countries (e.g. license to bear arms). No? OK

Did you read where I said and "or zones with low arms bearing"(which is just an unintended gun free zone) and this should be discouraged/avoided. No? OK

You really believe the constuition is not written in order of importance? No? Ok

Yes, I believe the constitution is not written in order of importance, because I've studied constitutional law. Please find me one source that indicates freedoms guaranteed by an amendment that comes first is more protected. The right to not have the government lock you in prison, take all your shit, and kill you for no reason is in the fifth amendment. You think the right not to quarter soldiers is more important? "Fine, lock me in jail, take everything I owen, and put a spike through my head, but YOU BETTER NOT MAKE ME LET A SOLDIER SLEEP ON MY FOUTON!!!" LMAO. Stop embarassing yourself.

A gun free zone is a zone where it is illegal to own a firearm. There is no such thing as an unintented gun free zone. We have less low arms bearing zones than any other country, and the most gun violence. We already have more gun owners than anywhere else, so encouraging more doesn't seem to be a viable solution. And by the way, why do you think a supermarket in South Carolina, a McDonalds in fucking Chicago, or a supermarket in Tennessee are particularly low gun areas? Do you have any evidence of a correlation between low gun ownership areas and high mass shootings? Because in states where there are more guns, where you would naturally have less, "unintended gun free zones LMFAO" tend to have more mass shootings. So, stop pulling shit out of your ass.

I did not say the government could change the laws to match other countries, but they could get a lot closer. There are plenty of laws that would be constitutional, but are blocked because they are politically unpopular. Background checks have been upheld as constitutional. Justice fucking Alito wrote a decision that background checks are ok, and he ain't exactly a liberal.

You don't have any fucking idea what you're talking about, and you're embarassing yourself. 

Did I say the amendments that comes first are more protected (officially)? No? Ok

Does forcing government solider quartering at your home make it alot easier to violate all amendments and fuck you in the ass? Maybe? ok

Are areas where gun carrying is legal but people are still unarmed basically unintentional gun free zones(areas?)? Yes? Ok 

Do you have reports/studies that show the more people legally armed in an area(zone)the more likely a mass shooting occurs and more deadly the mass shooting? No? Ok



My 3ds friendcode: 5413-0232-9676 (G-cyber)



cyberninja45 said:

Do you have reports/studies that show the more people legally armed in an area(zone)the more likely a mass shooting occurs and more deadly the mass shooting? No? Ok

You've already been presented with some of this data:

the-pi-guy said:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/may/26/ted-cruz/research-armed-campus-police-do-not-prevent-school/

"A 2021 study conducted by researchers from University at Albany and RAND examined data from U.S. schools between 2014 to 2018 to evaluate the impact of school resource officers. It found that school resource officers "do effectively reduce some forms of violence in schools, but do not prevent school shootings or gun-related incidents."

In addition, that study found that school resource officers appear to protect students from "a non-trivial number of physical attacks and fights within schools," which could have long-term academic and psychological benefits for students. But schools with resource officers also report more suspensions, expulsions, police referrals and student arrests — and those harsher disciplinary punishments disproportionately fall on Black students, male students and students with disabilities.

Further, when researchers controlled for location and school characteristic factors, "the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater (emphasis added) in schools with an armed guard present.""

To quote the two studies mentioned in the Politifact link (emphasis added):

Study 1 - edworkingpaper-cover-21-476 (edworkingpapers.com)

The results from our analysis indicate that SROs noticeably change school environments and student outcomes. Contrary to frequently cited objectives of SRO programs, the introduction of a full time SRO appears to increase gun-related offenses, perhaps due to increased detection and reporting activities of the police officer within the school. It also marginally increases the likelihood of a school shooting.

In other words, armed guards make school shootings more likely according to this study.

Study 2 - Presence of Armed School Officials and Fatal and Nonfatal Gunshot Injuries During Mass School Shootings, United States, 1980-2019 | Emergency Medicine | JAMA Network Open | JAMA Network

Based on theory, multivariate models include the presence of an armed guard and control for region, school type (public, nonpublic), and grade level (high school, elementary, other); location (urban, suburban, rural); use of lockdown drills; if the attack was targeted; total number of weapons brought to the scene; number of shooters; and weapon type. Results are presented as incident rate ratios in Table 2 and show armed guards were not associated with significant reduction in rates of injuries; in fact, controlling for the aforementioned factors of location and school characteristics, the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater in schools with an armed guard present

In other words, armed guards make school shootings more deadly according to this study.

I find it quite bold of you to state that we have no data showing these things when you have already been personally presented several of these studies in this very thread. At the very least, these studies indicate that the opposite hypothesis (armed guards reduce shootings and reduce deaths) is unlikely as even if you are unable to draw a causal link from this, to draw a causal link from a negative correlative link seems extremely unlikely (that is even though a and b often happen together, a doesn't necessarily lead to b, but it will be hard to argue that a prevents b given the data). 

Last edited by sundin13 - on 27 May 2022

sundin13 said:
cyberninja45 said:

Do you have reports/studies that show the more people legally armed in an area(zone)the more likely a mass shooting occurs and more deadly the mass shooting? No? Ok

You've already been presented with some of this data:

the-pi-guy said:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/may/26/ted-cruz/research-armed-campus-police-do-not-prevent-school/

"A 2021 study conducted by researchers from University at Albany and RAND examined data from U.S. schools between 2014 to 2018 to evaluate the impact of school resource officers. It found that school resource officers "do effectively reduce some forms of violence in schools, but do not prevent school shootings or gun-related incidents."

In addition, that study found that school resource officers appear to protect students from "a non-trivial number of physical attacks and fights within schools," which could have long-term academic and psychological benefits for students. But schools with resource officers also report more suspensions, expulsions, police referrals and student arrests — and those harsher disciplinary punishments disproportionately fall on Black students, male students and students with disabilities.

Further, when researchers controlled for location and school characteristic factors, "the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater (emphasis added) in schools with an armed guard present.""

To quote the two studies mentioned in the Politifact link (emphasis added):

Study 1 - edworkingpaper-cover-21-476 (edworkingpapers.com)

The results from our analysis indicate that SROs noticeably change school environments and student outcomes. Contrary to frequently cited objectives of SRO programs, the introduction of a full time SRO appears to increase gun-related offenses, perhaps due to increased detection and reporting activities of the police officer within the school. It also marginally increases the likelihood of a school shooting.

In other words, armed guards make school shootings more likely according to this study.

Study 2 - Presence of Armed School Officials and Fatal and Nonfatal Gunshot Injuries During Mass School Shootings, United States, 1980-2019 | Emergency Medicine | JAMA Network Open | JAMA Network

Based on theory, multivariate models include the presence of an armed guard and control for region, school type (public, nonpublic), and grade level (high school, elementary, other); location (urban, suburban, rural); use of lockdown drills; if the attack was targeted; total number of weapons brought to the scene; number of shooters; and weapon type. Results are presented as incident rate ratios in Table 2 and show armed guards were not associated with significant reduction in rates of injuries; in fact, controlling for the aforementioned factors of location and school characteristics, the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater in schools with an armed guard present

In other words, armed guards make school shootings more deadly according to this study.

I find it quite bold of you to state that we have no data showing these things when you have already been personally presented several of these studies in this very thread. At the very least, these studies indicate that the opposite hypothesis (armed guards reduce shootings and reduce deaths) is unlikely as even if you are unable to draw a causal link from this, to draw a causal link from a negative correlative link seems extremely unlikely (that is even though a and b often happen together, a doesn't necessarily lead to b, but it will be hard to argue that a prevents b given the data).

Again wtf is "school shootings?", "rate of death per mass shooting"? (useless stat if lower likelihood of mass shootings. Did they have data on deterred mass shootings in this study?)

Where is the study that came to the conclusion that that the more people legally armed in an area(zone)the more MASS shootings occurs AND more deadly(or just as deadly) the MASS shootings?



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